(08-15-2016, 09:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So far I haven't used my VA health benefits because I've been paying for private health insurance.   The medical benefits my family and I received while I was in the military were excellent. Despite complaints I have heard by many active duty members to the contrary. Based upon my military experience with military medicine, I expect to find a similar situation with the VA. Until then I am reserving judgment.


To hear you tell it, capitalism isn't at fault for anything. Even the big companies paying off the politicians. Or the health insurance or medical industry making tons of money. Yeah, capitalism isn't at fault. Those are all accidents. 

Socialism isn't our Saviour and capitalism isn't Satan and vice versa. I previously stated we need both capitalism and socialism. More precisely we need capitalism and social programs funded by capitalism so we aren't the haves and haves not, but the haves and the haves the basics. For that you have labeled me a liberal socialist, claimed socialism is a universal failure, and denied capitalism is responsible for any ill effects upon the world. Which is exactly why people like me shouldn't believe anything people like you try to sell.  Because 80% of the time business owners and there companies are lying to us like the supplement manufacturers I referenced before. 

(08-15-2016, 07:32 PM)djam Wrote: I honestly cant even get what you are saying here or how it applies to my orignal BLM post in the first place? Lets see, after 60 years of social programs being poured into the black communities, do you think they are better off now, or worse? Jyst answer that honestly. Keep in mind before the civil rights movement, the black divorce rate was lower than whites. It was absurd low, like 2% or something. They had very strong families. Do they have strong families now? Have these social programs really helped them out of poverty? 

Quote:If the government lowered taxes, especially corporate taxes, we would get more business moving back here and more jobs would open up hands down. America has one of the corporate highest rates in the world, and companies moved factories to where they can have low taxes and less union so they can stay in business and make money. Its the bottom line fact, why dont you just do the actual homework yourself? All the info is out there? I was a liberal once too ya know, but I quit lying to myself and believing the lies I had been fed. I got busy and did my homework. You can too. 

(08-15-2016, 09:43 PM)djam Wrote:  You dont need a government to regulate when the consumer has all the power and those consumers can communicate instantly from all over the world.

(08-15-2016, 04:17 PM)djam Wrote: Misguided and jaded? Yeah I was misguided back when my thinking was just like yours. I'm jaded from the failures of social programs that have wrecked our economy, and liberal/communist-like ideals that have divided people into class and race categories instead of uniting people under a freedom based live and let live banner like America was founded to be. One day a long time ago I stopped listening to what the bought and paid for, agenda-driven journalist and professors were saying and started researching for myself --history of policy and results thereof. It was not very hard to really get a look into the rest of the world either, considering I lived part of my life in China when I was younger, and my parents work took them all over the world most of my life. Socialism is a failure on almost every level. Doesnt matter how much you try to church it up, stealing from people to pay for others diminishes motivation, and hinders greatness, creativity and individualism. It has never worked out for anyone, and the countries Bernie and his band of clueless supporters try to use as a examples have struggled very badly, so they make excuses that ' oh what we need is "more" socialism and then it will be ok' lol. Its hilarious. How about this. Live and let live. Make your own way and let others do the same, If they volunteer to help others then thats great, if not, its their own business and you should have no say it in whatsoever. Anything socialism related would only work in a homesteading community type environment. Trying to force it on people in a modern society is utter stupidity. Folks want to be productive and make money for their work, and they want to keep that money and decide what to do with it for themselves. If you keep stealing from people they will leave. If you force them not to, then you've essentially created a prison lifestyle for people who produce things that others want. That kind of thing starts wars. 

(08-15-2016, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Unregulated capitalism was also a complete failure.  History proved this.

I don't know of anyone here who is arguing for true socialism where the government controls all services and means of production.  I think everyone agrees that the competition of capitalism is needed to drive innovation.  NOt even Bernie's followers were in favor of the government controlling all industry.

But unregulated capitalism leads to oppression, death, and destruction of the environment.

So instead of arguing about which is better we have to look at what level of regulation and government involvement is needed.  Because it can't be either zero or 100%. 

Anyone who claims that either extreme is good just does not understand history.

(08-15-2016, 09:56 PM)djam Wrote:   Research what capitalism really is, read some Adam Smith.

(08-15-2016, 09:56 PM)djam Wrote:  The more I dug and learned, the more I realized i had been duped.

(08-15-2016, 07:47 PM)djam Wrote: Did you know that Africa still has slavery to this day, and buys and sells their own people just like they did to a bunch of europeans back in the day, who eventually became American Democrats? Slavery still --their own people? Did you know that we were one of the very first countries to abolish slavery and it was the first republican president who did it? 

Did you know, that all those people have moved on in life, blacks can vote and even become president now. Are you suggesting we are still slave drivers? Because I actually agree with you. Democrats took them from the cotton fields and put them on the vote plantation. They give them "just enough" to keep getting their votes dont they? But they definitely make sure plenty of abortion clinics are setup in those neighborhoods, you know, of course. They have it all set up. The black communities are definitely living under chains right now. But you idiots want more of what has already destroyed them lol. Some friends of black people you guys are....

(08-15-2016, 09:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they did not.  They opened plants over seas and in Mexico because of the lower wages.

You don't understand economics.

(08-15-2016, 07:06 PM)djam Wrote:  I'm not the one whining for more government benefits and handouts, and neither is my grandfather.

(08-15-2016, 10:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You're sounding more and more like a nationalist. But what kind of nationalist peddles this sort of rhetoric?  

(08-15-2016, 10:21 PM)djam Wrote:  Did you know that in the very early coal days, the workers were actually paid fairly well? This is the part your liberal professors want to leave out of history. But you see most of the workers were German and Italian, who were all very skilled workers. Heck they barely even needed to be miners because they were such capable workers. But yes the coal companies, they did get greedy. They didnt want to pay these skilled workers who really knew what they were doing such high wages. So what did they do? They reached into communist eastern europe, and imported tons and tons of workers, totally unskilled but starving to get out of the oppression they were in. Well thats when all the bad stories of the mining towns and horrible working conditions and such started. Well eventually the mines grew and so did their problems, when those workers got together and decided to make a workers union and fight for their rights as workers --funny thing under a lot of communist ideals, which we still see today. We all know what happened after that, but my point is, these people were in backwoods appalachia, cut off from most of society in a time when the industrial revolution was moving fast. Times have changed, and despite the downfalls of the industrial revolution and the boom of large industrial corporations, we've all benefited from the wealth that was created because of capitalism ten fold. We would be screwed without it actually. 

(08-15-2016, 10:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You just said that your grandfather blew all his money because he was dependent on getting government benefits.

You said he is losing everything he worked for because he depended on governemtn benefits,

But now you claim that he does not want government benefits?

So basically he is crying about losing everything because he is not getting government benefits, but at the same time he is not whining for government benefits.

(08-15-2016, 08:12 PM)djam Wrote: A group of people who call themselves Black Lives Matter, and get mad when anyone even suggests that "all lives matter". There's your generalization, idiot. 

(08-15-2016, 10:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you admit that coal companies refused to pay a living wage and that forced labor to organize in order to get what they want?

And you admit that the only way the workers got what they needed was for them to organize and even fight to the death?

And this somehow proves how great and pure capitalism is?

Seems to me you have just posted a perfect example of how teh welathy would rather oppress the weak than pay a decent fair wage.

(08-15-2016, 10:21 PM)djam Wrote: conversation came up about the test I had just paid $1050 to study and take, and it turns out, that whole thing is just a collusion between the unions and government to help keep companies from opening business and competing with the unions for work. I'm like, wow, seriously?

(08-15-2016, 10:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am like wow, seriously myself.

This claim is a complete fabrication.  You have nothing to back it up other than paranoid delusions.  The fact is that the government has a duty to protect people from builders who have no idea what they are doing.

(08-15-2016, 10:34 PM)djam Wrote: Capitalism isnt perfect, and yes I'm willing to admit that. But socialism? Its terrible, tragic and pathetic. You cant have freedom and liberty without capitalism. Period. 

(08-15-2016, 10:34 PM)djam Wrote:  The coal companies and everything got worked out didnt it?

(08-15-2016, 10:36 PM)djam Wrote: No its not a complete fabrication. There are people in government trying to fight against it right now! The problem with you is that you buy anything the media and their unions bosses sell you lol.

(08-15-2016, 10:36 PM)djam Wrote: Only in a union state do hundreds of thousands of outdoor loving, gun owning, conservative country people vote for the likes of Obama LOL!!!! Its amazing to me and its why in my area the unions are losing members a lot more in the last few years. They are tired of being driven towards democrats and socialism. they are waking up fast. Which needs to happen. The corruption of the union needs exposed as it does for all the politicians democrat and republican alike.