Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine (/Thread-Russia-begins-moving-troops-into-eastern-Ukraine) |
RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Bengalzona - 02-26-2022 (02-25-2022, 03:31 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Me either man. I'm 58 and I stayed up all night and watched the news. Tbh, I'm pretty damn nervous over this crap. They have 6000 nukes now. That's more than all of NATO has...combined. And Russia supposedly has that supersonic technology making their shit faster, too. Well, here's a thought that got me through the Cold War without major depression: Anyone contemplating nuclear war has to also consider that it is no fun taking over the world after you have already nuked it. (02-26-2022, 06:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Eventually it’s just a number. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe just one of our subs has the ability to pretty much wipe out Russia. Ohio class SSBN: 24 trident missiles. 12 MIRV warheads per missile. 288 total warheads of approximately 1 MT each. That's enough to saturate all of the cities. Not enough to do that and hit all of the military, industrial and other targets in the country alone, though. (Which is why we have 14 Ohio class subs ;-) ) RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Dill - 02-26-2022 (02-26-2022, 06:43 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: US intelligence has certainly been on point, calling Putin's moves out before he made them. Yes, also, unexpected was the failure of Putin to gain active support of other autocrats, like Orban in Hungary and Tokayev in Kazakhstan. China has refused to call the invasion an "invasion," but Xi and co. have to be concerned about being drawn into Putin's growing pariahood. They are watching "weak" Biden very closely, along with Putin, to see how the invasion-which-cannot-be-named re-arranges and strengthens liberal democratic alliances world-wide. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - HarleyDog - 02-26-2022 (02-26-2022, 06:32 PM)Dill Wrote: I will say, though, that Biden's response so far has been competent, good even. I disagree. IMO, Sanctions should have started sooner and not after an invasion. If we knew the intelligence we are so proud of knowing, we should have delivered enough weapons, along with the UN to Ukraine. I personally think we should increase boots on the ground and get them ready if needed. I know they have increased troop count in Poland, but I would like to see more. I feel Bidens actions are lacking. Not saying Trump would do better because honestly, this is not about Trump (although he sure seems to be mentioned a lot in this thread). Biden needs to fully reopen all our energy resources and cut Russia off. In addition, we should be exporting energy to those countries which have relied on Russia for energy. However, with Germany changing it's tune and finally offering aid to Ukraine, those ideas may actually be in the works. As we know, Germany is heavily dependent on Russia for energy. I don't think they make that call without assurance their needs will be provided. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Tiger Teeth - 02-26-2022 (02-26-2022, 01:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Saw this on The Hill in the middle of my morning media reading. Thought it was interesting as this point has been made in this thread. Just interested in your opinion. How could Trump have stopped this? RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - michaelsean - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: Lost amid the war going on is that CPAC is happening right now if you want to see more things the right believes that will dismay you. Who asked? Man it’s 100% with you. Someone gives a little opening and you bust the whole wall down. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - samhain - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 10:18 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Just interested in your opinion. How could Trump have stopped this? I'm not the one being asked, but even as a as someone who's as anti-Trump as anyone, I'd say his unpredictability is something that would make a foreign leader think hard about what the US response might be if Trump perceived it as harmful to himself. IMO Trump is sincere in his admiration for Putin and is naive enough to believe that Vlad sees him as anything but a useful idiot. That said, depending on what general in his cabinet was doing the best job kissing his ass that day, he might heed the advice of a more traditional war hawk if he could be made to believe it would enhance his image as a tough or strong leader. If he's listening to Mike Flynn that day, a dude that's very likely an actual Russian asset, he might back off. If he's listening to a guy like Jim Mattis, you might see much heavier anti-Russian reaction. I believe it was Mattis that ordered a column of Russian mercenary vehicles to be annihilated in Syria, killing nearly 100 Russian citizens when he was Defense Secretary. That's the rub with Trump. You just never know. He might waive it off as being overreach to support Ukraine vs Russia in any meaningful way, likely taking digs at Western European allies along the way. He might also make a unilateral decision to react quickly and lob some cruise missiles at Russian military targets. Any decision based on his reaction is a huge gamble, because if you're wrong, his response is probably not going to be a measured or diplomatic one. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - CKwi88 - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 10:18 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Just interested in your opinion. How could Trump have stopped this? I know I'm not being asked, but as someone who would vote with those 62%, this would be my reasoning: Putin is certainly not scared of a Trump. At least not in the "I'm in a 18 to 22 ft square ring with Mike Tyson" sense. Maybe in the "I'm a woman locked in a room with nothing but Charlie Sheen and cocaine" sense. But simply having Trump in the White House was enough of a benefit. Deteriorating US relations with Ukraine, US actively undermining NATO allies, US actively lobbying for Russia to get their seat at the G8 back, US practically accepting Crimea staying with Russia, the list goes on. Why would Putin bite the hand that was feeding him? It's impossible to tell what those 62% of people are thinking, but that would be my reasoning. This is also assuming that Putin even gave a shit about who the US head of state was. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022 (02-27-2022, 01:48 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Who asked? Man it’s 100% with you. Someone gives a little opening and you bust the whole wall down. Oh! My apologies. You said you were glad to so your "friends on the left finally" think that we need to treat Russia as a cold war enemy again and that you were "dismayed" that people on the right do not. I used that as a jumping off point to show how Trump's republican party is viewing Russia during their big convention going on at the same time as the invasion. I suppose someone could have responded with some information on how "the left" was treating Russia but that didn't happen. If I broached some forum protocol or unspoken rule please know that was not my intent. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Dill - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 08:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I disagree. IMO, Sanctions should have started sooner and not after an invasion. If we knew the intelligence we are so proud of knowing, we should have delivered enough weapons, along with the UN to Ukraine. I personally think we should increase boots on the ground and get them ready if needed. I know they have increased troop count in Poland, but I would like to see more. H-Dog! glad to hear from you. Russia was already under a number of sanctions, has been since 2014. The question for Biden was how, which, and when to increase them as a deterrent. That's very hard to do, as P undoubtedly expected sanctions and prepared his economy for them. A second point about sanctions: our allies and others have to be on board, or they will not be effective. As you noted, Germany is heavily dependent upon Russian hydrocarbons. Sanctions hurt the sanctioners as well, so their governments must be persuaded. Same for the EU, which is even more complicated. It is remarkable that Biden has been able to selectively target some Russian banks for SWIFT sanctions. I'm pretty sure Biden discussed "when" to apply sanctions with his NSC and our allies as soon as the Russian build up on Ukraine's border began, before deciding they would be more effective if threatened first as a warning, then deployed as follow up. Remember that Putin was claiming he would not invade, right up to the invasion. If you apply sanctions first, you lose their leverage to prevent the invasion. So, it's not like Biden can just say "sanction" and the world bends to his will. It takes time to propose the right ones and get everyone on board. Seems to me Biden is already doing many of the things you suggest, and importantly, leading from behind with the EU. I think you can count on it that Trump would hardly "do better." His advisers and Repubs in Congress would be urging action while he was balking, deflecting, postponing any response, and praising the "genius" of Putin. Can you see him rallying NATO? Trump is mentioned a lot on this thread because FOX commentators keep comparing Biden's response to an imaginary "strong" Trump whom, we are to believe, would get after the dictator whose friendship and approval he still desires. And remember his Sec. of State was Pompeo. Also, sanctions are a long game, requiring organization, planning, persistence, diplomacy, deep knowledge of how allies interact and of the target economy--all requiring a very long attention span. Trump's foreign policy is Tucker Carlson's, so listen to Tucker if you want some idea of how Trump might have responded to an invasion from the dictator he still admires most--"Why should we take Ukraine's side? Why are we supposed to suddenly hate Putin? Has Putin ever tried to get me fired, killed dogs? No, he has not." Neither Tucker nor Trump has shown any interest defending liberal democracy within the "globalist" international system. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Dill - 02-27-2022 (02-27-2022, 12:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh! My apologies. I was wondering about that too. Putin has had a lot of MAGA support from people who would rather be Russian than Liberal. Where are the "leftists" who needed convincing Putin was an anti-democratic dictator? Like it took time for them to get on board. Finally. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - masonbengals fan - 02-27-2022 Lots of speculation in that novel Dill. But it boils down to this simple question. Remember when Putin annexed Crimea and Ukraine on Trump's watch? Yeah, me neither. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022 Watching the news and all the videos I have to say that while I am still against mandatory military service in this country (or any place) because I don't trust the leaders to not get itchy when they have a huge, forced military at their disposal that they are "paying to do nothing"...seeing the citizens pick up and defend their country is very inspiring. I fear we would have citizens attacking other citizens HERE rather than uniting to fight of an enemy depending on which leader they decided to listen to. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 10:18 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Just interested in your opinion. How could Trump have stopped this? So as I was reading Twitter this morning I saw a meme about this story from February 2020. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/30/mike-pompeo-aims-to-smooth-relations-with-kyiv-on-ukraine-visit We have to remember that Trump was going through a second impeachment because he was trying to withhold funds from Ukraine so he could get the announcement of an investigation into the Bidens at this time. Quote:Mike Pompeo aims to smooth relations with Kyiv on Ukraine visit Add in that Trump left a LOT of important positions unfilled or filled with temporarily appointed people who would agree with him or get fired immediately. Trump didn't care about Ukraine...or really anything. So what he might have done was hold a bunch of press conferences where he said he trusted Putin and that they had a very good relationship ("Putin really likes me") and that he know Putin is strong and will do what his best for his country. Then he would have called any question about that "stupid" and berated people not understanding that he is always right. Or something like that. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 02-27-2022 (02-26-2022, 10:18 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Just interested in your opinion. How could Trump have stopped this? Samhain largely hit on my response already. I don't think Trump would have had to stop it because it wouldn't have happened on his watch IMO. As stated, he is vain and mercurial. He also has a very fragile go. There's absolutely no telling how he'd respond to this kind of action, and the last thing you want when making this type of move is an unpredictable hand on the lever of the world's most powerful military by a large margin. You'll note that none of this is due to any competence on Trump's part. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022
RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022
RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - Bengalzona - 02-27-2022 They have agreed to talks. I think this is always where this was heading anyway. Putin has also put his nuclear forces on alert. Clearly, that is solely to threaten the West. I think it also smacks of desperation. I suspect it has to do with appearing strong for the negotiations. Especially since the Ukrainians have been taking his poor conscripts to task. https://www.reuters.com/world/india/war-with-ukraine-putin-puts-nuclear-deterrence-forces-alert-2022-02-27/ RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - BigPapaKain - 02-27-2022 (02-27-2022, 01:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Samhain largely hit on my response already. I don't think Trump would have had to stop it because it wouldn't have happened on his watch IMO. As stated, he is vain and mercurial. He also has a very fragile go. There's absolutely no telling how he'd respond to this kind of action, and the last thing you want when making this type of move is an unpredictable hand on the lever of the world's most powerful military by a large margin. You'll note that none of this is due to any competence on Trump's part. Yeah it probably wouldn't have happened the same with Trump. There would've been American boots on the ground in Ukraine if he was still in charge if his statements on the matter are any indication. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - masonbengals fan - 02-27-2022 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-invades-ukraine-furious-russian-president-reportedly-holed-up-in-mountain-lair/NZT7M77YGRNSF544R2PTDPDL6Q/ Pretty good coverage here. RE: Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine - GMDino - 02-27-2022 NSFW...language. But...wow.
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