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+---- Thread: White Privilege? (/Thread-White-Privilege)
RE: White Privilege? - PhilHos - 08-17-2018
(08-17-2018, 06:51 PM)Beaker Wrote: Are you saying there is no other type of racial privilege other than white privilege?
It sure sounds like it because 'white people hold a disproportionate amoount of the wealth and power'.
RE: White Privilege? - Beaker - 08-17-2018
(08-16-2018, 08:14 PM)Beaker Wrote: You don't have to control entire industries to have power over others. Minorities all over the US are policemen, hiring managers, teachers and professors, judges, politicians, loan officers, prosecutors, housing managers, small business owners, large business owners and a myriad other types of positions in which they have power over others.
I made the quote above to illustrate that if you are claiming there is racial privilege, then there are more types than just white privilege. Minorities can bestow privilege on other minorities. The examples above support that position undeniably.
Then in your exchange with Phil, you post the following to support your position that only white privilege exists:
(08-17-2018, 06:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Those people who belonged to that country club had major influence in the community (employment, housing, legal, etc). So a lot of white people received a privilege from them.
What you are claiming are positions of power and influence over others in your example look extremely similar to the positions of power and influence over others in my examples, don't they?
Sorry fred, but you can't have it both ways. If white people in those positions can have major influence in the community and bestow racial privilege on others, then minorities in those positions can do the same. If racial privilege exists as you claim, then minority privilege exists along with it. If minority privilege doesn't exist then neither does white privilege.
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-20-2018
(08-17-2018, 07:59 PM)Beaker Wrote: Sorry fred, but you can't have it both ways. If white people in those positions can have major influence in the community and bestow racial privilege on others, then minorities in those positions can do the same. If racial privilege exists as you claim, then minority privilege exists along with it. If minority privilege doesn't exist then neither does white privilege.
*sigh*
Minorities can not bestow anywhere near the benefits that whites can because whites control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power.. That is why it is a privilege to be white in the United States instead of a minority.
if you have a city where minorities can hand out a dozen jobs and whites can hand out hundreds of jobs that does not mean everything is "equal". What it means is that it is a privilege to be white because whites can hand out so many more jobs.
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-20-2018
(08-17-2018, 06:11 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but if you want to apply a poll to a larger segment of the population, having small sample sizes is usually frowned upon. I polled my coworkers, 6 of us hate superhero movies and 2 of us love them. This means that only 25% of the American people love super hero movies. This makes me wonder why the Avengers movies do so well. I mean, this poll is accurate and it has more than 1 person.
Thanks for proving how completely ignorant you are of statistical analysis.
Do you really think this makes you look smart?
Lets have a serious discussion on "sample size". First post your list of studies that show that there are no racial preferences in housing, lending, hiring, and criminal justice.
That way we can compare the sample size of the evidence you are relying on to prove your point to the sample size I am using.
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-20-2018
(08-17-2018, 06:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It sure sounds like it because 'white people hold a disproportionate amoount of the wealth and power'.
Thanks for proving your level of reading comprehension.
Since when does "disproportionate" mean 100%?
I never denied that minorities could give favors to other minorities. I have repeated that over and over again. But when white people receive a disproportionate amount of the favors that means there is a white privilege.
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-20-2018
(08-17-2018, 06:11 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Are you suggesting that I have to prove a negative? Seriously?
You are the one insisting that you have not received any privilege from being white. Why shouldn't I ask you to prove it? In fact that seems to be the ONLY basis you have for your claim.
I have posted multiple studies showing that white privilege exists. Lets see your list of studies that shows it does not exist. Because so far all I have heard from you is your own opinion without any facts or studies or anything to back it up.
RE: White Privilege? - Dill - 08-20-2018
(08-17-2018, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No. What I am saying is that since whites hold such a disproprtionate amount of these positions it is a privilege to be white.
If minorities can hand out 1% of the favors and whites can hand out 99% of the favors then it is a privilege to be white.
(08-16-2018, 08:14 PM)Beaker Wrote: The term privilege in the racial context we are discussing means a person is receiving some type of advantage (whether knowingly or not) from someone else based solely upon the color of their skin.
You don't have to control entire industries to have power over others. Minorities all over the US are policemen, hiring managers, teachers and professors, judges, politicians, loan officers, prosecutors, housing managers, small business owners, large business owners and a myriad other types of positions in which they have power over others.
Are you denying that minorities exist in these types of positions in today's society?
If you are, then you're a racist and part of the problem.
If you are not, then privilege isn't confined to white people.
People might be missing a point here. In the US today, whites AND minorities may hold positions of power owing to merit, not race, and many whites and minorities may exercise the lawful power of those positions, such as granting loans or selling real estate, without reference to race at all. A black housing manager who rents to both black and white is not an example of "black privilege." Nor is a white housing manager who rents to both black and white an example of "white privilege."
Further, the question is not whether there is a greater proportion of whites in such positions or whether "some" blacks hold powerful positions too.
And still further, it is not a question of whether some one person receives a benefit from some one other person based solely upon the color of his her skin.
The concept of "white privilege" describes a structural effect resulting from the fact that whites held power across a range of institutions for centuries. Central to this concept is also the notion of cultural capital, and the fact that previous generations of blacks in the U.S. were limited in their opportunities to acquire this. To understand the concept, one needs to move beyond the notion of racism as simply the actions of racist individuals. A black housing manager who preferred to rent to blacks might be in a position to exercise that preference, but the exercise would not then constitute some mirror image "black privilege." The concept of "privilege" in question here is embedded in a structure of often unspoken norms which regulate schools, advertising, business and government, and which people (both black and white) silently (for the most part) internalize and accept as they grow up.
Before one can determine whether "white privilege" still has any explanatory power in post-segregation America, people need to be clear on what the concept actually describes. Best to get clear on this using historical examples first.
Hopefully people can agree that "white privilege" was, at one time, a consequence of institutions like segregation. Most whites could apply to most any college they qualified for in 1950. Most blacks could not, and further, had not the opportunity to acquire the cultural capital which would qualify them for higher education. This would have consequences for their children, who also could not acquire that capital. Some white people also did not have this capital, but race was not the barrier. Few whites in 1950 (probably none, in fact) thought their access to higher education constituted some kind of "privilege." Unless very wealthy or legacy admissions, they had to work for their grades like everyone else. Same for access to housing loans and real estate. "I've worked for everything I've got" most would say, and would resent being told of any special privilege they had. But in this case the privilege consists in being able to attend college at all if you make the grade, or get a loan if you have collateral, or buy a house if you have the money. However, "privilege" was only acknowledged with respect to other whites. E.g., the white guy who gets to go to Yale because his daddy went is "privileged," not the white guy who gets to go to college at all. Blacks didn't figure into the social reference at all, so privilege with respect to blacks does not register at all among whites, though it was very clear to blacks that all whites have this privilege with respect to education, loans, housing, etc.
A more subtle example: young black women and men in the 1940s-50s straightened their hair and did their best to make themselves up like whites, in part because all the dominant models of beauty in the media were white and implicitly defined black hair, features and skin as ugly and inferior. This situation was not an intended effect of advertisers and media (for the most part), but a result of the fact that standards of beauty were determined by the dominant race which controlled the means of producing, disseminating, and maintaining those ideals. Some whites could not live up to these ideals, sure, but it was not because they were white. Most blacks could not, and it was because they were black. White privilege appears here in the fact that whites were not born into a world which implicitly defined them as ugly because of their race. Virtually all blacks were, and so had this additional struggle to define their self worth against prevailing social ideals which negated that worth. Hard to imagine a young white person of this period walking around thinking "Gosh I sure am lucky the dominant ideals of beauty don't exclude me by racial definition"--though he was indeed lucky in that way. A group of three or four hair-dressers in Detroit, LA, and New York in 1965 who start giving their patrons afros don't suddenly construct a world of black privilege against which whites must define themselves. Nor do a few black business which sprout up in those communities, dedicated solely to helping blacks buy homes.
So white privilege is not about whites getting 10% off at the grocery store or ushered to the head of the line at the post office. It is not about one white guy here or there exercising racial prejudice in hiring, so that a black who does the same is therefore creating "black privilege" (See! They do it too!). It is the collective effect of a range of institutions, which goes beyond individual intentions. The question of whether it still exists is a question about social terrain and whose perceptions and definitions are included in defining that terrain.
RE: White Privilege? - Beaker - 08-20-2018
(08-20-2018, 11:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Minorities can not bestow anywhere near the benefits that whites can because whites control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power. That is why it is a privilege to be white in the United States instead of a minority.
You're still denying that minority privilege exists? Either you're stubbornly insisting that minorities in today's society cannot hold positions of power and influence over others. Or you are saying that, since the basis of the concept of any privilege is racism, only white people are racist because only white privilege exists. Either way that comes across as a kind of racist line of thought.
RE: White Privilege? - Dill - 08-20-2018
(08-20-2018, 05:39 PM)Beaker Wrote:
You're still denying that minority privilege exists? Either you're stubbornly insisting that minorities in today's society cannot hold positions of power and influence over others. Or you are saying that, since the basis of the concept of any privilege is racism, only white people are racist because only white privilege exists. Either way that comes across as a kind of racist line of thought.
If he is not, then I am--at least if the claim is that "minority privilege" is structurally analogous to what social researchers call "white privilege."
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-21-2018
(08-20-2018, 05:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: You're still denying that minority privilege exists?
This is my last response to you on thi subject. You are not even reading what I am writing or trying to respond in any sort of a logical manner. You have tried to make this same lame claim dozens of time and I have already responded. I am not playing silly games like this any more.
Read these posts and get back to me whne you understand what I am saying about your claims of "minority privilege"
(08-10-2018, 05:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The only possible situation is the rap or hip hop music industry. So when they only control about 1% of the economy I don't think that is much of a privilege. What other industry is controlled by blacks or minorities?
My point is that it is still a HUGE privilege to be in control of 99%. The whites do not have to control 100% of everything to have a privilege.
(08-13-2018, 04:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In a country where every person gives favors to people of his own race it is a huge privilege to belong to the race that controls a large disproportionate amount of the power and wealth.
(08-14-2018, 06:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No. It is not the same at all.
Blacks favored blacks in the Jim Crow south, but that does not mean there was no privilege to being white.
Blacks favored blacks during Apartheid in South Africa, but that does not mean there was no privilege to being white.
If you admit that racism still exists in the United Sates and you also admit that whites control a large disproportionate amount of the wealth and power in the United States then you can not deny that there is a privilege to being white in the United Sates.
(08-16-2018, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it does not.
Only the race in control gets the privilege. Minorities do not have enough power to give privilege greater than what the white people get.
What industry is controlled by minorities to the extent that they can oppress white people and exclude them. Other than Rap/Hip-hop I can't think f a single example.
(08-17-2018, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No. What I am saying is that since whites hold such a disproportionate amount of these positions it is a privilege to be white.
If minorities can hand out 1% of the favors and whites can hand out 99% of the favors then it is a privilege to be white.
"Patriots fans really don't have it any better than Browns fans because the Patriots have not won every single game and the Browns have won a game in the last two years. Patriot fans have absolutely no advantage over Browns fans. Derp."
(08-20-2018, 11:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: *sigh*
Minorities can not bestow anywhere near the benefits that whites can because whites control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power.. That is why it is a privilege to be white in the United States instead of a minority.
if you have a city where minorities can hand out a dozen jobs and whites can hand out hundreds of jobs that does not mean everything is "equal". What it means is that it is a privilege to be white because whites can hand out so many more jobs.
(08-20-2018, 11:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving your level of reading comprehension.
Since when does "disproportionate" mean 100%?
I never denied that minorities could give favors to other minorities. I have repeated that over and over again. But when white people receive a disproportionate amount of the favors that means there is a white privilege.
RE: White Privilege? - PhilHos - 08-21-2018
(08-20-2018, 11:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving how completely ignorant you are of statistical analysis.
Do you really think this makes you look smart?
Lets have a serious discussion on "sample size". First post your list of studies that show that there are no racial preferences in housing, lending, hiring, and criminal justice.
That way we can compare the sample size of the evidence you are relying on to prove your point to the sample size I am using.
Ahhhhhhhh, ad hominem attacks. Makes me feel good inside. What better way of saying you have no argument than by attacking me personally? Thanks, fred.
RE: White Privilege? - PhilHos - 08-21-2018
(08-20-2018, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one insisting that you have not received any privilege from being white. Why shouldn't I ask you to prove it?
Because YOU are the one saying that I HAVE received privilege from being white. I've asked for proof and you have yet to provide any.
(08-20-2018, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have posted multiple studies showing that white privilege exists. Lets see your list of studies that shows it does not exist. Because so far all I have heard from you is your own opinion without any facts or studies or anything to back it up.
Because, again, it is incumbent on the person making the claim to back up their claim. I give you props for trying. You have posted studies to back up your claim. It's just they're not very good studies. Hence, all I need to do is to poke holes in them, which I have done and continue to ask you for more evidence of white privilege. Instead of posting more evidence - which should be easy given how prevalance you make it seem white privilege is.
RE: White Privilege? - fredtoast - 08-21-2018
(08-21-2018, 03:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's just they're not very good studies. Hence, all I need to do is to poke holes in them, which I have done and continue to ask you for more evidence of white privilege.You have not found a single flaw in the studies. The studies were peer reviewed by people who actually know how to critique studies like those. You do not even know how to argue with their findings.
RE: White Privilege? - Beaker - 08-22-2018
(08-21-2018, 02:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not even reading what I am writing or trying to respond in any sort of a logical manner.
Re-posting examples of you dancing around an answer is not an answer. It's a simple yes or no question. Are you denying that minority privilege exists?
RE: White Privilege? - Bengalzona - 08-28-2018
![[Image: 39891289_10157540204298238_1056289855752...e=5C3AF5FC]](https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39891289_10157540204298238_1056289855752896512_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=59e03fa192fc56b980e5c0c06e7664c9&oe=5C3AF5FC)
RE: White Privilege? - jj22 - 08-28-2018
Brian Krassenstein @krassenstein · 4m4 minutes ago
Imagine how much publicity the Jacksonville mass shooting would be getting if the shooter was an undocumented immigrant rather than a mentally ill white dude.
I'll add or any brown person. The reaction would have been different. Did Trump even mention this mass shooting?
RE: White Privilege? - michaelsean - 08-28-2018
(08-28-2018, 11:50 AM)jj22 Wrote: Brian Krassenstein @krassenstein · 4m4 minutes ago
Imagine how much publicity the Jacksonville mass shooting would be getting if the shooter was an undocumented immigrant rather than a mentally ill white dude.
I'll add or any brown person. The reaction would have been different. Did Trump even mention this mass shooting?
Who is Brian Krassentein, and how can I get a job being a moron? Is he saying mass shootings by white people don't get a lot of attention?
RE: White Privilege? - jj22 - 08-28-2018
I think he's saying what many keep saying. You can tell the color of the shooter by the reaction from the media, Trump, and many Americans. Unfortunately.
RE: White Privilege? - PhilHos - 08-28-2018
(08-28-2018, 12:59 PM)jj22 Wrote: I think he's saying what many keep saying. You can tell the color of the shooter by the reaction from the media, Trump, and many Americans. Unfortunately.
That's right. When it's a white shooter it's all over the news, but when it's an illegal immigrant, it's not. No one has heard of Mollie Tibbets but they damn sure have heard the name(s) of ... umm, the guys that were shot in Jacksonville.
RE: White Privilege? - michaelsean - 08-28-2018
(08-28-2018, 12:59 PM)jj22 Wrote: I think he's saying what many keep saying. You can tell the color of the shooter by the reaction from the media, Trump, and many Americans. Unfortunately.
But that's just stupid.(On his part) We hear all about mass shootings. I mean we can go down the list of these shootings that got huge air time.