(09-24-2020, 01:48 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Someone once told me that the media is no longer using the term "largely peaceful".  I suppose the Guardian didn't receive that memo.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/23/protests-erupt-breonna-taylor-decision


Thousands turned out for largely peaceful protests in more than a dozen cities after news of the grand jury’s decision in Louisville


Even more inexplicably this statement comes right after the headline which reads;

Louisville protests: two officers shot amid Breonna Taylor killing charging decision

If you made this up people would accuse you of being ridiculous.

(09-24-2020, 02:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: Dozens of cities.  Hundreds (thousands?) of people.

Two horrible incidents were the police were injured (this and the one hit with a bat you mentioned).

Mostly peaceful.

"ridiculous"

Quote:Revealed: pro-Trump activists plotted violence ahead of Portland rallies

Patriots Coalition members suggested political assassinations and said ‘laws will be broken, people will get hurt’, leaked chats show

Far-right organizers clashed with counter-protesters at the Justice Center in Portland, Oregon, 22 August. Photograph: Brooke Herbert/AP

Jason Wilson and Robert Evans
@jason_a_w
Wed 23 Sep 2020 15.00 EDT


Leaked chat logs show Portland-area pro-Trump activists planning and training for violence, sourcing arms and ammunition and even suggesting political assassinations ahead of a series of contentious rallies in the Oregon city, including one scheduled for this weekend.
The chats on the GroupMe app, shared with the Guardian by the antifascist group Eugene Antifa, show conversations
between Oregon members of the Patriots Coalition growing more extreme as they discuss armed confrontations with leftwing Portland activists, and consume a steady diet of online disinformation about protests and wildfires.
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[url=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/05/facebook-removes-patriot-prayer-pages-in-bid-to-halt-violent-social-militias]
At times, rightwing activists discuss acts of violence at recent, contentious protests, which in some cases they were recorded carrying out.
At one point, David Willis, a felon currently being sued for his alleged role in an earlier episode of political violence, joins a discussion about the use of paintballs.

Where other members had previously suggested freezing the paintballs for maximum damage, Willis wrote: “They make glass breaker balls that are rubber coated metal. They also have pepper balls but they are about 3 dollars a ball. Don’t freeze paintballs it makes them wildly inaccurate” [sic.]

Willis did not immediately respond to voice and text messages sent to his listed cellphone number.

Another prolific poster is Mark Melchi, a 41-year-old Dallas, Oregon-based car restorer who claims to have served as a captain in the US army.

Melchi has been recorded leading an armed pro-Trump militia, “1776 2.0” into downtown confrontations in Portland, including on 22 August. At several points in the chat he proposes violence in advance of those confrontations, and appears to confess to prior acts committed in the company of his paramilitary group.

Rightwing demonstrators chase a Black Lives Matter protester after a pro-Trump caravan rally at the Oregon state capitol on 7 September 2020 in Salem. Photograph: David Ryder/Getty Images
In advance of the 22 August protest, Melchi wrote: “It’s going to be bloody and most likely shooting, they’re definitely armed… so let’s make sure we have an organized direction of movement and direction of clearing or other Patriots will be caught in the possible cross fire. When shit hits the fan.”



He advised other members to ignore weapons statutes, writing, “I saw someone say bats, mace, and stun guns are illegal downtown. If you’re going to play by the books tomorrow night, we already lost. We are here to make a change, laws will be broken, people will get hurt… It’s lawlessness downtown, and people need to be prepared for bad things.”
Following these comments, several rightwing demonstrators were recorded using gas and bats on 22 August, where Melchi and his militia were also present.

In other remarks ahead of the day, Melchi draws on what he claims is his group’s history of traveling to multiple states to engage in violence at protests.

“My Group 1776 2.0. Has been fighting Antifa in Seattle, Portland, for months”, Melchi writes, adding “this won’t be a simple fist fight. People will get shot, stabbed and beat.”

He also claims police cooperation in interstate violence, writing “Yes, going after them at night is the solution… Like we do in other states, tactical ambushes at night while backing up the police are key. You get the leaders and the violent ones and the police are happy to shut their mouths and cameras.”

Melchi nevertheless recommends that members disguise themselves to avoid the consequences of homicide.
“We must be ready to defend with lethal response… Suggest wearing mask and nothing to identify you on Camera…to prevent any future prosecution.”

Quote:We are here to make a change, laws will be broken, people will get hurt

Mark Melchi
In response to detailed questions about these contributions, Melchi responded with an email that falsely suggested his comments might have been photoshopped, and concluded with direct threats.



Melchi wrote: “I suggest you don’t threaten combat veterans sweetheart, might get a little uncomfortable for ya big guy!”

Melchi’s sentiments in the chat logs were in keeping with fantasies of, and plans for, violence, which are constantly discussed by group members.

Although some members are connected with extremist groups or militias, on the whole they describe themselves as “patriots”, and they express no clear ideology beyond a hatred of the left, and a preparedness to use violence. The shared allegiances expressed in the group are mostly to the police, the United States and Donald Trump, a person whom some say they are prepared to kill for.

Ahead of 22 August, a user “Paige” says “I’m waiting for the presidential go to start open firing”.
Melchi, the militia leader, responds, “Well Saturday may be that go lol”.

Alex Newhouse, the digital research lead at the Center for Terrorism, Extremism, and Counterterrorism at the Middlebury Institute, said of the group that “the main mechanism that makes these communities so dangerous is the incessant desensitization to the idea of political violence”.

Newhouse said that the ideas expressed in the group were entrenched in “extreme nationalism – that a few strong men with guns can together take out an evil that is at once imagined as an existential threat, and pathetically weak”. Newhouse added that the group’s discussions “fit within a broader trend of rightwing extremists becoming more accelerationist over time”.

Rightwing and leftwing protesters battle with mace, paint balls and rocks near Justice Center in downtown Portland Saturday, 22 August 2020. Photograph: Brooke Herbert/AP
The chatlogs became fractious at the peak of Oregon’s recent wildfire emergency. While some members said they had gone to rural areas to “hunt” imagined antifa arsonists, others became concerned about the dangers.



As early as 9 September, the baseless idea that the fires were a coordinated arson attack was treated as settled fact, with Melchi writing: “People have officially died from these Antifa Fires. I’d shoot them on site” [sic], and another user, Dub, responding: “Yes sir if I see them they are getting dropped where they stand.”

When adverse consequences of vigilantism became evident, leadership attempted to bring the group back under control. After a member of the group reported that an associate had been arrested in Lane county for “holding [someone] at gunpoint”, the group’s administrator, who used the user name Patriot Coalition, wrote “STOP HOLDING PEOPLE AT GUN POINT- STOP PULLING YOUR WEAPONS… VIDEO- TAKE PICTURES AND CALL 911.”

Mary McCord is the legal director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection at Georgetown Law School, which on Wednesday released a series of fact sheets on anti-paramilitary laws in all 50 states.

Given details of the content of the chats, McCord said that “this is the kind of thing that might allow authorities to take action”, and that members of the group may “already be in violation of Oregon’s anti-paramilitary laws”.

The group also talked about coordinating at the rally with the Proud Boys, an extreme rightwing group. One user, identified as Bravo91 and a part of the group’s leadership, spoke of phone calls with the Proud Boys.

Along with antifascist demonstrators, Democratic politicians are also the target of violent fantasies in the chats. In particular, Portland’s mayor, Ted Wheeler, is demonized and nominated as a possible target for assassination by the group.
On 24 August, a user identified as “Trent-Medford” writes, “F***k wheeler… guess what soon as we are done with these punks. He’s next freakin coward !!!!!!”

User T Durden went further. In response to news that an alleged arsonist had been released on bail, and without encountering disagreement, they wrote: “Maybe we need to start taking care of the justice ourselves!”, adding, “Start with justice on our DA and then move on to the governor. Maybe by the time we get to the first judge, they will have changed their tunes.”

(09-24-2020, 03:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Of course the article in question was referring specifically to the protest in Kentucky, where two police officers were shot.  Was that "mostly peaceful"?  You also assume that acts of violence or property damage did not occur at other protests simply because it wasn't reported by the media.  I can tell you first hand that is not the case.  But I suppose as long as most people don't engage in violence that's enough for you. 

(09-24-2020, 03:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: So I'm thinking this didn't "help" with keeping the protests peaceful.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/23/oregon-portland-pro-trump-protests-violence-texts

(09-24-2020, 03:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahh yes, the "far right agitator" spin that's now making it's way around the media and internet.  Seriously anything to avoid calling out the violent protests/riots/arson.

(09-24-2020, 03:29 PM)GMDino Wrote:  I suppose as long as most people don't engage in violence that is "mostly" peaceful.

Violence is never the answer.  I've said that repeatedly.

(09-24-2020, 04:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: That would care a lot more weight sir had I not said all the violence was wrong.

Hard to call it "spin" versus facts unless one wants to willfully ignore it and just blame one side.

(09-24-2020, 05:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, a protest the devolves into violence, rioting, arson and looting is violent.  It doesn't matter if the preceding four hours were peaceful.  It definitely doesn't matter if you're a victim of any of the above.


Ohh, is there evidence of right wingers actually initiating the violence?  The Portland protest aside, in which a right leaning protestor was stalked and murdered, have there been instances of right leaning protestors initiating violence?  If so, what percentage of the cases?  I'll bet it's less than 7%.  To my knowledge there have been zero instances of right leaning protestors looting and burning down businesses. 

(09-24-2020, 07:08 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-protests-white-supremacists-antifa.amp.html

I don't think there's an actual percentage given to who is doing what. Police are trying to curb violence, protect citizens and stay alive. But there's plenty of evidence and far more speculation that alt right groups are doing much of the damage, from nashville to new york, washington to the other washington. 

(09-24-2020, 07:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: With respect, this is utter BS.  Much of the damage?  Based on absolutely nothing you're going to ascribe "much of the damage" to alt right groups?  All your source has is speculation, entirely from Democratic politicians (including woman beater Ellison) and left wing activists stating that it's really the alt right causing the violence.  Was it an alt right guy who murdered the Trump supporter in Portland?  Was it an alt right guy who field goal kicked a man in the face after an "alt right" mob beat him near unconscious?  I can tell you I've seen not one whiff of any "alt right" people involved in the lawlessness here.

This reeks of trying to shift blame now that the majority of people are getting tired of this shit.  Your article is from months ago, do you really think if the media had any sliver of hard evidence that it's actually right wingers rioting, looting and burning things down they wouldn't be swarming the airwaves with it?  

(09-24-2020, 10:31 PM)Benton Wrote: Meh, it's out there. Given your predisposition, I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking up articles if the response is 'hey that's just BS.' If you haven't heard about Boogaloo attacks, alt right attacks, etc., it's because you're opting not to hear them.

And I didn't at first, either. Not until I talked to people who were there in Nashville. I thought a lot of it sounded silly. Infiltrators who come in, start some violence or damage property and then get out, leaving it to look like peaceful protestors? Come on, these basement dwelling tin foil hat guys aren't that smart. But that's exactly what people I know saw. Guys come in, start fires and then disappear. Not protestors, people trying to hide what they were doing.

But, yes, there is hard evidence out there. I'm not really sure what is happening, but it's not just a bunch of angry liberals. Some, sure, but that's not all of what's going on.

(09-24-2020, 07:08 PM)Benton Wrote: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-protests-white-supremacists-antifa.amp.html

I don't think there's an actual percentage given to who is doing what. Police are trying to curb violence, protect citizens and stay alive. But there's plenty of evidence and far more speculation that alt right groups are doing much of the damage, from nashville to new york, washington to the other washington. 

(09-24-2020, 10:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll certainly admit it's possible, my issue is with you stating it like it was a fact and that they were responsible for most of the violence.  As your own source stated, quoting Ellison, "No one knows".  Hence my assertion that it's being used as a distraction.  I can understand your not buying into that though.

(09-24-2020, 11:07 PM)Benton Wrote: You're better than that, SSF. 

(09-24-2020, 11:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Alright, I apologize for using "most" instead of "much".  However they are extremely similar words.  I can assure you the misquote was not intentional.  My central point remains as stated.

(09-24-2020, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Much= Great in quantity

Most=Greatest in quanity


C'Mon SSF, you're better than that. 

(09-24-2020, 11:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Alright, I apologize for using "most" instead of "much".  However they are extremely similar words.  I can assure you the misquote was not intentional.  My central point remains as stated.

(09-24-2020, 11:42 PM)Benton Wrote: Actually, much means a large amount.

(09-24-2020, 11:42 PM)Benton Wrote: Actually, much means a large amount.

(09-24-2020, 11:45 PM)Benton Wrote: I don't think for a second it was intentional. I think you've probably been inundated with stories from one side and view it as a majority. But there's more to it than that. How much, I have no idea. 

(09-24-2020, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/much