(01-12-2018, 03:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The comment is in poor taste as are attempts to make it a racist comment.

(01-12-2018, 04:19 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Wasn’t it said in private meeting?  We all say things in meetings that don’t have the normal filter we would use in public.  

Dear lord the comment was crude but let’s be serious.   There is Merit there and really we should be careful who we do bring to this country.    Which is why Trump is right that we need a point system.

(01-12-2018, 11:31 PM)hollodero Wrote: Nah, I disagree. Maybe one can argue whether the comments were "racist" or not, however calling them racist is not nearly as tasteless as the comments were. Not even close. There's a reason why one can consider Trump to be a racist, and the benefit of the doubt or semantic arguments only go so far. He also said people from Haiti all have AIDS and went quite far to describe Mexicans and so on. The suspicion that there are deep resentmenst against certain non-white types isn't far fetched, and calling it racist isn't an awful misstep.

I consider myself to be rather careful to call things racist, but these remarks... they are at least quite close.




Well... "private". It was a meeting with politicians, including from the other side, so it's not like he talked to his friends after a couple of beers.

It's also not about a point system or anything like that. Also, again, it's not about calling these countries shitholes, although an US president really should never engage in that kind of talk. But it's really about saying African countries are shitholes and hence we don't need people from there. To your credit, you at least bring this thought to its logical conclusion, in saying the country is shitty, hence the people from there are all shitty. I consider that remark deeply flawed, but at least there's no beating around the bush what it really means.

(01-13-2018, 12:48 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Private negotiations are still private.   Also Dick Durbin has a history of telling porky pies about these meetings in the past.   But hey don’t let that get in the way of your trump hate right?  

(01-13-2018, 12:48 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Private negotiations are still private.   Also Dick Durbin has a history of telling porky pies about these meetings in the past.   But hey don’t let that get in the way of your trump hate right?  

(01-13-2018, 12:48 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Look mate,   I don’t want any immigration from the third world because they are all crap holes.   I want a point system to weed out the people who have the best chance for success.    Whether they come from crapholes or western nations each should be valued based on merit.   This is exactly why we need the point system.   You don’t have to worry about anything when you just base it on merit.

(01-13-2018, 01:02 AM)hollodero Wrote: Right...
...yeah I don't know about Dick Durbin. But it's not like he made that remarks up, obviously. When an US president uses words like these in a meeting with senators from both sides, it's quite plausible they get out there. That's just how it is.



When you say "whether they come from crapholes or western countries", I don't really take issue. It's a legit position I don't share, and one of the main reasons for me not sharing it is that Norwegians sure do not clean up US hotel rooms or take care of the elderly or pick fruits. That's jobs you leave to Mexicans etc. (just like we do). Hard to determine how "merit based" gives a young immigrant from Mexico or Haiti or a "shithole" a chance to better his life by doing a job an American won't do. Her/his merit is the willingness to live in the US and contribute to society there. Both things are essential of course.

But however it is, Trump didn't argue for "merit based" in that particular instance, he argued that people from a shithole country are shit and the US needs none of those people. Obviously. And it's true that he doesn't get benefit of the doubt from me here, I don't question who told the press or if the words were out of context or whatever reason that can't be the reason always. Remember, Haitians also "all have AIDS", and I see no reason to believe he didn't say that either, and all the other things. There's a pattern.

(01-15-2018, 11:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do you know who used to do all the entry level jobs in this country?   Teenagers and the poor.    Now the work ethic has fallen to where teeneagers refuse to do those entry level jobs and lellle on a government wage refuse to do anything.  We need to cut off the cheap labor and allow a course correction.

(01-15-2018, 11:16 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do you know who used to do all the entry level jobs in this country? Teenagers and the poor. Now the work ethic has fallen to where teeneagers refuse to do those entry level jobs and lellle on a government wage refuse to do anything. We need to cut off the cheap labor and allow a course correction.

(01-15-2018, 12:34 PM)hollodero Wrote: OK alright, I see it a bit differently, but fair enough. No reason for me to take issue with that stance.

But that is not what Trump was saying. He wasn't arguing for merit-based, he said we don't want people from shithole countries like all African ones, these people are not welcome. And I have to say that's quite the opposite fom the US values and the idea of the country the way I came to know and like it (which is kind of the country of give me the hungry and the poor, we give them opportunity, they give their commitment to the US and their willingness to work hard for it). Besides that, it has quite the tone of a racist comment. He wants Norwegians. Like if being Norwegian (or not an African) is a "merit" in and of itself.

Whatever you see in his comments, it wasn't exactly what he was argueing. One also doesn't argue "merit-based" when saying all Haitians have AIDS.

(01-15-2018, 01:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Trumps immigration plan is the implementation of the Raise Act. Which is a merit based point system. They are discussing Diversity Lottery, Raise Act, chain migration, and the wall. DACA is being used as the carrot to get democrats to come to the table. Honestly if the GOP was smart they would put the DACA people into two categories. Adults and minors.

(01-15-2018, 01:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Trumps immigration plan is the implementation of the Raise Act.  Which is a merit based point system.   They are discussing Diversity Lottery, Raise Act, chain migration, and the wall.   DACA is being used as the carrot to get democrats to come to the table.    Honestly if the GOP was smart they would put the DACA people into two categories.  Adults and minors.

As for the s-hole comments ....   people from the third world are going to have a tougher time to make it here but that doesn’t mean a European would be a better immigrant.    Which is why we need the point system.   In a vacuum. The European would do better because the change in lifestyle isn’t that much.    But it’s all subjective which means we need the point system .

(01-15-2018, 12:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, there are other reasons that these jobs are not just doled out to teenagers anymore. Some of it is because they are taken up by older people that in previous generations would have been retired. But, because we don't have a strong enough social safety net, many people can't afford to retire. In addition to them taking those jobs, you also have people not retiring from jobs when they previously woul dhave, which limits any upward mobility. People can't move up the ladder and out of entry level jobs if there are no places to fill.

The idea that it is just a lack of work ethic is ignoring so many problems in our society. I am not going to sit here and say there isn't a change in the work ethic, but that is only one part of a very complex issue.

(01-15-2018, 02:00 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Valid points.   Either way we don’t need the illegals.

(01-15-2018, 02:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: Keep moving them.



Each step brings us closer to your truth.

(01-15-2018, 02:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: What on earth are you on about?   Did you have a point or were you having meme withdrawl?

(01-15-2018, 03:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: Every "reason" you presented for keeping "them" out you have backtracked or changed on when presented with evidence to the contrary.

We're getting close to the truth!

(01-15-2018, 04:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You mean the truth that I don’t want any illegals here?   Dear lord you cracked the case.  How dare I stand for rule of law.

(01-15-2018, 05:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: No, no.  (Nice spin, btw.)

This thread is about legal immigration.

And your reasons for not wanting "some" people to come here.

So close....