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German Hostage Found Dead - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: German Hostage Found Dead (/Thread-German-Hostage-Found-Dead) |
RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Belsnickel - 12-14-2023 (12-14-2023, 11:28 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Was that so hard to answer, i mean 1k words to admit that the Peel Partition offered 2 states and you are still trying to argue it. ![]() (12-14-2023, 11:28 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: King David took Jerusalem and named it as the capital of Israel in 1000 BC for the Jews (and built the first Temple), before them it was the Canaanites. ![]() RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-15-2023 (12-14-2023, 07:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that's why these historical "we were here first" arguments are really a non-starter. They do absolutely nothing to contribute to a solution to the actual issue. Every single square inch of land inhabited from humans was in the hands of another group of humans at some time. It's utterly immaterial to the present day. The question at hand is, is there a middle of the road solution that both parties can stomach? No solution of consequence will please either party. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-15-2023 (12-14-2023, 06:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Excusing and mitigating their actions while drawing equivalencies to the IDF is absolutely defending them. Except no one is doing any of that and you are claiming they are. That's not exactly the truth. Cite a direct "excuse" then, and a direct claim of "equivalence." Post number and thread. Not some emotional bank shot like "it's ABSOLUTELY 'excusing' if you mention the occupation." If you can't do that then this just another attempt to censor discussion, making it all about what YOU can tolerate, and trying to de-legitimate perspectives based on human rights, international law, and history, unlike yours. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-15-2023 (12-15-2023, 01:20 PM)Dill Wrote: Except no one is doing any of that and you are claiming they are. That's not exactly the truth. How about this? (12-05-2023, 09:43 AM)Dill Wrote: Would you put it past Israel to deliberately bomb a hospital and call it an "accident"? I see this question, I have to wonder what the purpose of it is in a thread about female hostages being raped and killed? Could it be an attempt to draw an equivalence of "bad behavior" between Hamas and the IDF? Why, I think it just might be. I'm sure your logic twisting non-answer will be very entertaining. You have a very long history of heavily criticizing Israel and excusing/mitigating excesses of Islamic extremists. At least be a man and own it. Also, kindly stop derailing a thread about female hostages being raped and killed in order to defend your indefensible position. Thank you. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-17-2023 (12-15-2023, 03:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Also, kindly stop derailing a thread about female hostages being raped and killed in order to defend your indefensible position. Thank you. First, a post to explain why I won't be following that polite order on principle. The disinformation surrounding the Arab-Israeli conflict enables bad U.S. foreign policy and an illegal occupation. In liberal democracies, challenging disinformation and contesting ideological frames which otherwise limit and distort understanding of policies is generally considered good thing. So three points of context that should operative on every thread about the current Hamas-Israel war: 1. Hamas exists because of Israeli dispossession and occupation (not because of "ISLAM" or "anti-semitism"). 2. The current war, and all its ugly events, follow from a confluence right-wing Israeli and right-wing Palestinian politics. 3. And no one who really wants to "contribute to a solution to the actual issue" will block discussion of 1 and 2 on any thread thereon. Expanding context is a requirement on this thread especially. No serious discussion of rape as a war crime can go very far as repetitive "condemnation." Even a lengthy, lurid description of rape evidence to help people imagine the crime will become tiresome if repeated. Hence we BOTH link discussion to more than just rape and more than just Hamas, striving to place these incidents in a larger context. You do this by, for example, transferring the hate and anger you foment here to other targets, like "leftist progressives" who supposedly aren't moving fast enough to condemn rape as a military tactic (and without even checking whether that is actually the case). That's not "derailing" from your perspective. Nor is OtherMike's foray into historical error on Israel's behalf, which also escapes your urge to censor. So your derailing charge is just a very selective filtering of thread contributions through a hard right vision of what the conflict is about. And that vision can only be maintained by policing information and perspectives which undermine it. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-17-2023 (12-15-2023, 03:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm sure your logic twisting non-answer will be very entertaining. You have a very long history of heavily criticizing Israel and excusing/mitigating excesses of Islamic extremists. At least be a man and own it. Lol. Umpteenth reminder--Labelling, especially pre-labeling, is not argument. My "long history of heavily criticizing Israel and excusing/mitigating excesses of Islamic extremists," if we look at actual cases, is just my long history of exposing your disinformation about the Arab-Israeli conflict and your targeting one ethnic group for constant denigration. No one in this forum has more actively sought to disseminate Israeli state propaganda about Israel's "war of independence," 1967, and Hamas purported use of human shields. You've claimed Muslim immigrants dilute the culture of Germany and that Islam is a threat to democracy; you've defended Trump's Muslim ban, and in myriad places presented ISIS and the Taliban as defining representatives of Islam. If you were targeting Jews or Hispanics like this, I'd be "excusing" them too. All of the disagreements between us that I can remember, about whatever topic, are really at base arguments about whether human rights should be extended to all people, and whether accurate, fact-based analysis should take priority over ideology. Were I given to retrograde gendering of manly honesty, I'd happily own this "very long history." RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Mike M (the other one) - 12-18-2023 (12-14-2023, 04:07 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm familiar with this history. Your conception of "sides" is rather too simple here. Administrating: "People who administrate are in charge." So 4+ posts and 1k+ words, you finally agree, the British were in control of the land and rights of the people on that land. I'm tired of this song and dance. Looks like you don't know history as well as i thought. You could have saved yourself and us from a lot of unnecessary words, by simply saying the Palestinians have ties to that land as well during ancient times via Philistia in the South (which was a larger area than the Gaza Strip is). And in case you and some of the rest of you have already forgotten, I said BOTH have claims to the land in that area dating back to Ancient times. And i also know that some of you are blowing off the King David part cause it comes from the Bible. Let me remind you, the bible is FULL of ancient historical references, IE Cities and People and so on, Not that all of the Stories are accurate that involve man's interpretations of events. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Mike M (the other one) - 12-18-2023 (12-14-2023, 07:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are you saying that King David did not exist and that the Egyptian Reliefs from that time period are incorrect? Not even including the references to David from the Quran? Those things mention King David as an Israelite King and Prophet of Allah. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Belsnickel - 12-18-2023 (12-18-2023, 03:16 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Are you saying that King David did not exist and that the Egyptian Reliefs from that time period are incorrect? Not even including the references to David from the Quran? Those things mention King David as an Israelite King and Prophet of Allah. Nope. I was highlighting the contradiction in your post about the Jews being there first. I mean, this is also not considering that the people we know as the Israelites weren't Jews as we know them, today, anyway as they were not monotheistic until the Babylonian exile when they first encountered Zoroastrianism which is when they ditched other deities in their religious texts. In addition, the non-Jewish inhabitants in the Palestinian territories are also descendants of those Israelites that remained during the various diasporas, often because of the inability to afford to leave, and they eventually converted. Anyway, the whole "who was there first" thing is, as SSF and I discussed before, too complex to really use to justify anything in this conflict. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-18-2023 (12-18-2023, 03:13 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Administrating: "People who administrate are in charge." Whaa??? I've never disputed that British were administering the Mandate. Our disagreement was not whether British were administrating the land, but whether they "owned" it and had a right to give it away. Your claim (#84) was that the Palestinians did not own their own land. And the British "owned all of their rights" by right of conquest (which is not recognized in international law). That is categorically false. Your primary claim was that Palestinians have rejected statehood 5 times, defining them as the problem, not the people who took their land by force and still hold 5 million Palestinians under an illegal occupation. My counter is that Palestinians have never received a genuine offer, and there is no state or legal entity which had a legal right to offer their land to immigrants--certainly not the state which seized their land by force. The first two "offers" were offers to give their land away, and the remaining were offers to get a little archipelago of fenced in towns on the West Bank with no sovereignty. That's not statehood. So "offers" sure, but not valid offers. Your counter to this history is "See, they did get offers." (12-18-2023, 03:13 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Looks like you don't know history as well as i thought. The Bible is a story that involves "man's interpretation of events." Since Biblical claims to land create no legal standing in modern international law, "some of us" are not much interested in King David or whether BOTH have claims dating back to ancient times. So far, I don't see any recognition/understanding of international law in your argument, or of the conception of universal human rights which underpins it. This current conflict is not about whether Palestinians had "ties" to the land they lived on for thousands of years, but whether a community of Jews immigrated from Europe had a right to take that land from them by force, and then hold generations of their descendants under military control without citizenship or rights. You seem to think they do have that right, and it is retro-actively justified by Palestinian refusal to accept dispossession, plus King David or something. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Mike M (the other one) - 12-18-2023 (12-13-2023, 07:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Both sides have claims to that land dating back over 2k years. The British tried to figure out a way to make it work and the Arabs make the Republicans Party of No look like amateurs compromisers. They've made it perfectly clear over the years that anything involving the Jews is a NO Deal. (12-18-2023, 08:22 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Nope. I was highlighting the contradiction in your post about the Jews being there first. I mean, this is also not considering that the people we know as the Israelites weren't Jews as we know them, today, anyway as they were not monotheistic until the Babylonian exile when they first encountered Zoroastrianism which is when they ditched other deities in their religious texts. In addition, the non-Jewish inhabitants in the Palestinian territories are also descendants of those Israelites that remained during the various diasporas, often because of the inability to afford to leave, and they eventually converted. Ofc it's a contradiction, It seems i have to take an extreme opposite stance in order for Dill to meet me half way (which is usually what i said in the first place) RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-18-2023 (12-15-2023, 03:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Cite a direct "excuse" then, and a direct claim of "equivalence." Post number and thread. That's neither an "excuse" nor a direct claim of "equivalence." All of my responses to your post are about the internal limits on your "wondering." My post #45 was in response to Millhouse's comment: "Wouldn't put it past Hamas that they will round them all up and put them in some refugee hospital, and then blow it up blaming Israel." And also to Luvnit's similar, constant generation of unrestricted Hamas evil to explain civilian casualties and the like. But I am definitely violating the unstated interpretive rule operative in their and your posts, which requires the IDF be held blameless of war crimes or criminal intent, while opening the imagination to any and all possible evil on Hamas' side. E.g. if the body of a hostage is found, there is no consideration of the possibility that Israeli bombing could have directly caused the death; it just has to be Hamas silencing victims And yet, yesterday the IDF killed three Israeli hostages themselves, as they tried to surrender with a white flag. https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html. Had the first report simply been of three more dead hostages found, who knows what Hamas motives would have been spun up to explain their deaths. Not a stretch to suppose that many Palestinian civilians in Gaza have been killed this way, but your "no-equivalence" rule blocks basic recognition of such possibility. Reminding people of the IDF's sordid history of indiscriminate targeting and using women and children as human shields isn't to create "equivalence" but to break what is in effect an ideological constraint on discussion and encourage a more realistic assessment of what is happening in Gaza. If you lack capacity for analysis-before-blame, then of course any such analysis will just look like another style of blame. Casting all evidence controverting your interpretive rule as "excusing" or "equivalence" is just a form of crude censorship, an attempt to shape discussion with blame rather than to encourage accurate understanding of what is happening in this new war and why. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-19-2023 (12-18-2023, 10:31 PM)Dill Wrote: That's neither an "excuse" nor a direct claim of "equivalence." All of my responses to your post are about the internal limits on your "wondering." Good lord, your statements just ooze with pomposity. Quote:My post #45 was in response to Millhouse's comment: "Wouldn't put it past Hamas that they will round them all up and put them in some refugee hospital, and then blow it up blaming Israel." And also to Luvnit's similar, constant generation of unrestricted Hamas evil to explain civilian casualties and the like. Ahh, so by your own admission you're attempting to draw a equivalence between the IDF and Hamas. Thank you for finally having the courage of your convictions and admitting it. Quote:But I am definitely violating the unstated interpretive rule operative in their and your posts, which requires the IDF be held blameless of war crimes or criminal intent, while opening the imagination to any and all possible evil on Hamas' side. E.g. if the body of a hostage is found, there is no consideration of the possibility that Israeli bombing could have directly caused the death; it just has to be Hamas silencing victims Another Dillism false equivalence. War crimes can happen inadvertently. Civilians can be killed, especially during urban warfare, with no direct intent to kill them. By strict definition this is a war crime. Is it at all comparable to Hamas deliberately and systemically targeting civilians for murder, torture, gang rape and kidnapping? NOPE! But for you it is, hence my castigation of your deplorable position. Quote:And yet, yesterday the IDF killed three Israeli hostages themselves, as they tried to surrender with a white flag. Yes, a tragic occurrence. And by the IDF's own admission the soldiers in question did not follow the ROE. I'm sure this horrible occurrence will haunt them the rest of their days. Unlike the Hamas animals who openly celebrated their wanton slaughter and rape of civilians, going so far as to phone their parents to brag about it. As for your "what if" scenario, it deserves zero consideration, especially from an apologist equivocator. Quote:Not a stretch to suppose that many Palestinian civilians in Gaza have been killed this way, but your "no-equivalence" rule blocks basic recognition of such possibility. Reminding people of the IDF's sordid history of indiscriminate targeting and using women and children as human shields isn't to create "equivalence" but to break what is in effect an ideological constraint on discussion and encourage a more realistic assessment of what is happening in Gaza. If you lack capacity for analysis-before-blame, then of course any such analysis will just look like another style of blame. Oh, it's certainly possible. I'd go so far as to say probable. Of course, it also falls directly into the realm of accidental killing, as opposed to deliberate and celebrated killing as it is for your boys in Hamas. Quote:Casting all evidence controverting your interpretive rule as "excusing" or "equivalence" is just a form of crude censorship, Quote: an attempt to shape discussion with blame rather than to encourage accurate understanding of what is happening in this new war and why. Calling an apologist and a false equivocator exactly that is neither. Your attempts to obfuscate your odious position are transparent and exposed. As long as you engage in either, or both, activity it will be my pleasure to point it out. But don't worry, your fellow far leftists will never dare to disagree with you, so you'll have company of a sort. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - GMDino - 12-19-2023 https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-used-thousands-of-unguided-dumb-bombs-strikes-on-gaza-2023-12 Quote:Intel says Israel has been dropping thousands of 'dumb' bombs on Gaza. It hasn't exactly been hiding their use. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - GMDino - 12-19-2023 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-war-52fa9628e6284cdad6d7f7db6cc30742 Quote:In Israel’s killing of 3 hostages, some see the same excessive force directed at Palestinians RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 12-19-2023 (12-19-2023, 10:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-used-thousands-of-unguided-dumb-bombs-strikes-on-gaza-2023-12 (12-19-2023, 11:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-war-52fa9628e6284cdad6d7f7db6cc30742 I see a lot of posts on this issue from you and Dill. I don't recall seeing many (any?) of them on the atrocities committed, and continuing to be committed, by Hamas. Especially gauche of you to be posting this in a thread about the murder and rape of the hostages. Maybe start you own "The IDF is as bad as Hamas" thread? RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-19-2023 (12-19-2023, 12:45 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Good lord, your statements just ooze with pomposity. You always start with how I make you feel. No "admission" here that I am "attempting" to draw equivalence, etc. You can't just manipulate your way to a valid conclusion by thanking me for what I have not "admitted" instead of addressing the reasons for my statement. Talking "as if" I had done that is just a form of gaslighting. My argument is that no one can accurately describe, understand, and evaluate events on the ground while adhering to your "no-criticism-of-the-IDF-but-let-your-imagination-fly-with-Hamas" rule. The "equivalence" charge is just an attempt to block criticism and to control discussion by threat of accusation rather than rational, fact-based argument. (12-19-2023, 12:45 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Another Dillism false equivalence. War crimes can happen inadvertently. Civilians can be killed, especially during urban warfare, with no direct intent to kill them. By strict definition this is a war crime. Is it at all comparable to Hamas deliberately and systemically targeting civilians for murder, torture, gang rape and kidnapping? NOPE! But for you it is, hence my castigation of your deplorable position. Actually, I do consider shooting people trying to surrender a war crime, and at the same time NOT the equivalent of planned torture and and gang rape. But since I am not making that equivalence I don't need to answer for it. Again, your premise here is that MENTION of IDF war crimes is AUTOMATICALLY "equivalence." So just another attempt to enforce your "no criticism of IDF" rule--a rule which blocks accurate description and understanding of what's actually happening in this war. It's possible that you just don't get this "accuracy first" standard, and for you all is blame from the get go; so if someone mentions IDF bad behavior, you sincerely cannot see anything but "equivalence!" and rush to prove Hamas is worse; or it's possible you do know, but don't want that standard near this topic. I can't tell. (12-19-2023, 12:45 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not a stretch to suppose that many Palestinian civilians in Gaza have been killed this way, but your "no-equivalence" rule blocks basic recognition of such possibility. Reminding people of the IDF's sordid history of indiscriminate targeting and using women and children as human shields isn't to create "equivalence" but to break what is in effect an ideological constraint on discussion and encourage a more realistic assessment of what is happening in Gaza. If you lack capacity for analysis-before-blame, then of course any such analysis will just look like another style of blame. Another firm "NO" here. Shooting civilians first and asking questions later does not, under current IHL, fall "directly into the realm of accidental killing" any more than does the death of women and children forced to act as human shields or intentionally shelling a refugee camp. Yeah "far leftists will blah blah blah" Can you not, for one post, simply follow an argument and address it as argument without the partisan emotional drama? If you disagree with the priority I place on accurate description over repetitive angry condemnation, then calmly explain in rational and factual terms why that priority is misplaced--preferably without sharing your feelings with "pleasure" or substituting them for proof. Explain, in rational terms, why Hamas' "celebrated killing" should halt any fuller discussion of what is happening to civilians in the war zone. Simply claiming someone is an "apologist false equivocator" for taking in the whole picture does not "expose" anything. Even if you repeat it three times, it remains baseless accusation. God, if only political arguments were really that easy. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-19-2023 (12-19-2023, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I see a lot of posts on this issue from you and Dill. I don't recall seeing many (any?) of them on the atrocities committed, and continuing to be committed, by Hamas. Especially gauche of you to be posting this in a thread about the murder and rape of the hostages. Maybe start you own "The IDF is as bad as Hamas" thread? No. I like this thread just fine. Glad to see Dino isn't cowed by repetitive, baseless accusation either. And it is not "gauche" to introduce IDF shooting of hostages into a thread about the murder and rape of hostages--unless there is some unstated rule that Israel cannot be criticized and only Hamas can be a danger to hostages--not Israeli bombing or intentional targeting of civilians. Might as well try to restrict discussion to GERMAN hostages, since that is in the thread title. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Belsnickel - 12-19-2023 (12-19-2023, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I see a lot of posts on this issue from you and Dill. I don't recall seeing many (any?) of them on the atrocities committed, and continuing to be committed, by Hamas. Especially gauche of you to be posting this in a thread about the murder and rape of the hostages. Maybe start you own "The IDF is as bad as Hamas" thread? I have created a general Israel/Hamas war superthread to just collect all the odds and ends about the ongoing war. RE: German Hostage Found Dead - Dill - 12-19-2023 (12-19-2023, 11:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-gaza-hamas-war-52fa9628e6284cdad6d7f7db6cc30742 There is a rather natural progression here that I have seen before. Some Palestinian attack on Israel leads to sympathy for Israel, but then sparks greater international scrutiny of Israel's culture of military occupation--especially among those who were unaware there was a military occupation. Initially, Israeli behavior is "excused" because they are under threat and have a right to self defense; and then questions arise as to why they are under threat and whether Palestinians might also have a right to self defense. This war departs substantially from every previous event, though, in that it began with a massive strike that killed 1400 Israelis--roughly the number of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead back in 2008, plus the very visible murder rape atrocities of unarmed civilians. The Palestinian casualties, which will follow the usual inexplicable excess, bring the focus back to the IDF and Netanyahu government. But in this case Israel's killing of their own hostages is accelerating the questioning. |