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+---- Thread: Trump admin to end separation policy (/Thread-Trump-admin-to-end-separation-policy)
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - bfine32 - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Businesses here in the U.S. that solicit the cheap work source.
Well you almost answered it, I asked does anyone here.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - fredtoast - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, he also didn't make up the policy where kids cannot be detained with the parent.
(06-25-2018, 04:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe you should educate yourself as to why it became such a huge issue in just the last couple of weeks.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Bengalzona - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well you almost answered it, I asked does anyone here.
Actually, you asked: "Out of curiosity is anyone claiming that illegal immigration is a good thing?"
Also, if no one is claiming that illegal immigration is a good thing (whether here or in the world at large), then no response would be appropriate if they don't, right?
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - SunsetBengal - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It was his policy. He claimed it would work as a deterrent. And he was the one who corrected it when it went bad.
But obviously he had nothing to do with it.
Just more "fake news", right?
No, it's not. There have been no new policy items passed by congress, with regard to immigration policy/procedure. These laws have been on the books for years, he simply allowed the enforcement of existing laws to happen.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - fredtoast - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 06:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: No, it's not. There have been no new policy items passed by congress, with regard to immigration policy/procedure. These laws have been on the books for years, he simply allowed the enforcement of existing laws to happen.
If he did not change anything then why did it become such a huge issue in the last 2 weeks?
And if he did change anything then that is a change in "policy". I never said there were any new laws.
This is getting absurd. Trump supporters are actually claiming that he did not change anything, and that he did not just sign an executive order to change something he never changed.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - SunsetBengal - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote:Quote:If he did not change anything then why did it become such a huge issue in the last 2 weeks?
Hysterical anti-Trump media hyperbole.
Quote:And if he did change anything then that is a change in "policy". I never said there were any new laws.
My understanding of policy is that it means law, when speaking of the Federal Government. Again, no laws were changed, only existing ones being enforced.
Quote:sign an executive order to change something
A temporary measure, to allow Congress time to come together and agree on new policy.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - bfine32 - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:24 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I believe the operative word is "implied" as I don't think they made the claim in writing. But that is just media in the 21st century. This is the same process by which Fox News or any other media outlet imply one story is 'more important' than another story by placing it as a headline and, in some cases, not airing the other story at all.
Welcome to the Pandora's Box the Reagan and Bush admins opened by backing down former FCC regulations.
No the operative word is stated. They had to make a correction to their original online report that the girl was taken away screaming.
Correction (Posted June 19): The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she was taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - bfine32 - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 07:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My understanding of policy is that it means law, when speaking of the Federal Government. Again, no laws were changed, only existing ones being enforced.
A temporary measure, to allow Congress time to come together and agree on new policy.
I think what Fred is trying to say is that Trumped ended Catch and release and that became his policy. Given it makes little sense to you or I, but to him it means the world.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Millhouse - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 07:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My understanding of policy is that it means law, when speaking of the Federal Government. Again, no laws were changed, only existing ones being enforced.
A temporary measure, to allow Congress time to come together and agree on new policy.
Actually this all came about because of the 'zero tolerance' policy that Sessions announced in May. All adults would be now prosecuted for illegally crossing. And because of the 1997 law and related decisions on it, a child could only stay with an adult up to 20 days. So since that parent would be in jail or facing charges longer than 20 days due to 'zero tolerance', the kids were separated.
So the only reason the older laws were being 'enforced' was because of the new policy enacted by Sessions and Trump. Obviously they didnt think that far ahead to realize that separating families like this would be frowned upon like it has been. Because if they did, that executive order would have been signed when 'zero tolerance' started up.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Bengalzona - 06-25-2018
(06-25-2018, 07:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No the operative word is stated. They had to make a correction to their original online report that the girl was taken away screaming.
Correction (Posted June 19): The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she was taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.
So it is. I stand corrected.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Dill - 06-26-2018
(06-25-2018, 07:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My understanding of policy is that it means law, when speaking of the Federal Government. Again, no laws were changed, only existing ones being enforced.
A temporary measure, to allow Congress time to come together and agree on new policy.
Actually, policy does not mean "law." It is a principle for guiding behavior and decision making, including the interpretation of law.
By changing policy, Trump produced the mass separation of children from parents. Sessions knew the law well enough to produce this desired result through a change in policy, and he knew he could claim "the law" was already there and blame the parents for breaking it.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/was-law-separate-families-passed-1997/. Trump supporters would be ok with the abuse and the misdirection of blame.
Unlike previous presidents and AGs, these guys WANTED to separate children from parents in order to discourage refugees and asylum seekers. Traumatizing the children was worth the cost; to them it was not really a "cost." They have not even kept track of the children separated by this policy. So toddlers are now scattered across the US, hidden from the public, with no means of tracking them back to their parents. Other than as a PR problem, they don't care. These separations were undertaken, not to "follow the law," but to produce fear in potential refugees. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/07/dhs-is-considering-separating-mothers-and-children-who-cross-the-border-illegally/?utm_term=.091ea0882556
Speaking of the LAW, what do you think about the practice of taking children from parents who came here LEGALLY to apply for asylum and returning them only after forcing the parents to sign a voluntary deportation agreement?
https://www.carbonated.tv/news/immigrant-parents-are-being-told-choose-between-kids-or-asylum-status
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Belsnickel - 06-26-2018
(06-25-2018, 07:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My understanding of policy is that it means law, when speaking of the Federal Government. Again, no laws were changed, only existing ones being enforced.
Dill covered this to an extent, but I want to expand a little on policy specifically. Policies include laws, directives, executive orders, regulations, etc., etc. The executive branch enacts policies that help them enforce the laws passed by Congress. Policies can be very informal, as well. People would be surprised if they knew just how many people were making policy in our governmental system.
This has its pros and cons. It can be more responsive to issues that arise, but at the same time elected officials are the ones accountable to the people and should be the ones making the policy. As you can probably guess, this is a big topic of discussion in the realm of public policy and administration.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - bfine32 - 06-26-2018
(06-26-2018, 03:40 AM)Dill Wrote: Speaking of the LAW, what do you think about the practice of taking children from parents who came here LEGALLY to apply for asylum and returning them only after forcing the parents to sign a voluntary deportation agreement?
https://www.carbonated.tv/news/immigrant-parents-are-being-told-choose-between-kids-or-asylum-status
I know that you CAP LOCKED LEGALLY for effect, but I see no where in your link that the parent came here LEGALLY. Could you kindly point that part out to me.
Actually I clicked on the source document in your link (where do you guys find these sites?) and I read the following about the protagonist:
Quote:The two were separated late last month in McAllen, Texas, after crossing the US-Mexico border illegally and turning themselves in to Border Patrol, The Texas Tribune said, adding that the man said he had talked to his daughter once on the phone once since their separation.
So it appears he came here ILLEGALLY as opposed to LEGALLY
As to the question you posed with the left leaning fabrication removed (do you work for Time?):
I have said all along I am against separating family that attempt to come here LEGALLY. I'm just of the opinion that I do not want to reward ILLEGAL behavior, at the cost of those trying to do it LEGALLY.
As to the rest of your post: Good interpretation, if you would have just left out (hey I gotta a new pun) the obvious biased conclusions.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - XenoMorph - 06-26-2018
(06-25-2018, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If he did not change anything then why did it become such a huge issue in the last 2 weeks?
And if he did change anything then that is a change in "policy". I never said there were any new laws.
This is getting absurd. Trump supporters are actually claiming that he did not change anything, and that he did not just sign an executive order to change something he never changed.
What trump supporters are saying that..?
He didn't make a change to begin with.
But hes making a change now to end the practice or attempt to end it at least..
Why did it become a huge issue in the alst 2 weeks? Left is grasping at straws.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - fredtoast - 06-26-2018
(06-26-2018, 10:36 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: What trump supporters are saying that..?
Sunset and Bfine
(06-26-2018, 10:36 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: He didn't make a change to begin with.
*sigh*
From April
https://www.voanews.com/a/jeff-sessions-zero-tolerance-policy-illegal-entry-us/4336134.html
Late Friday, President Donald Trump signed a memorandum ordering an end to the policy known as “catch and release.” Under the policy, illegal immigrants are released from detention while awaiting a court hearing.
(06-26-2018, 10:36 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Why did it become a huge issue in the alst 2 weeks? Left is grasping at straws.
You really think that "the left" are the only people opposed to this policy of punishing innocent children?
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/18/republicans-abandon-donald-trump-over-zero-toleran/
Congressional Republicans beat a full-scale retreat Monday from the administration’s zero-tolerance border policy, joining Democrats to demand that President Trump stop jailing parents and find ways to keep families together while trying to stop a new surge of illegal immigration.
High-profile Republicans said they are writing bills that would end family separations, and Massachusetts Gov. Charlie Baker, a Republican, said he will no longer allow his National Guard troops to assist with border security as a protest against Mr. Trump’s policies.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/republican-party-family-separation/index.html
Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the 2008 Republican presidential nominee, tweeted, "The administration's current family separation policy is an affront to the decency of the American people, and contrary to principles and values upon which our nation was founded. The administration has the power to rescind this policy. It should do so now."
Nebraska [b]Sen. Ben Sasse[/b], called the separation of families "wrong" and wrote "the choice before the American people does not have to be 'wicked versus foolish.'" "This is wrong. Americans do not take children hostage, period," he wrote.
Maine [b]Sen. Susan Collins[/b] called the separations "inconsistent with our American values."
Oklahoma [b]Sen. James Lankford [/b]has started distancing himself from the Trump administration's use of the Bible as justification for the family separation policy, saying he wants to see the policy addressed.
Utah [b]Sen. Orrin Hatch [/b]said, "A policy that leads to separating children from their families is wrong."
Texas [b]Rep. Will Hurd[/b] spoke out against the administration's policy
Florida Rep.[b] Mario Diaz-Balart [/b]issued a statement calling the separations "unconscionable."
[b]Kansas Sen. Pat Roberts[/b] renounced the practice. "While I firmly support enforcing our immigration laws, I am against using parental separation as a deterrent to illegal immigration. My concern, first and foremost, is the protection of the children."
Ohio Rep. Steve Stivers, the chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, came out Monday against the separation of families.
Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said kids "should not be the victim of a broken illegal immigration system. All of us who are seeing images of these children being pulled away from moms and dads in tears are horrified. This has to stop,"
Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski said the policy is "not consistent with our values."
[b]former Florida[/b] [b]Gov. Jeb Bush[/b] said, "Children shouldn't be used as a negotiating tool. @realDonaldTrump should end this heartless policy"
Ohio Gov. John Kasich wrote in a fundraising email to supporters Monday that the family separations are "just wrong."
Former first lady Laura Bush, wife of former GOP President George W. Bush, wrote a Washington Post op-ed published Sunday night calling the practice "immoral."
[b]Former Massachusetts Gov. and 2012 Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney [/b]responded to a tweet by Laura Bush about the policy. "I agree that we need a more compassionate answer,"
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - PhilHos - 06-26-2018
(06-25-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again with the straw man.
There is no straw man. Time showed an amazing lack of journalistic integrity. That's a problem that can and has detracted away from the real issue of familial separation.
(06-25-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Time did not make up the crisis at the border. That is what I care about. What picture or drawing they use does not make any difference to me.Well, many of us are capable of caring about multiple issues. I can care about families getting separated AND that Time has demonstrated a lack of journalistic integrity.
(06-25-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only the people who fall for Trumps deflection of blame care much about that.
Not only Trump supporters care about journalistic integrity. Pretty much every anti-Fox News liberal has seemingly cared for it since Fox News' inception. I find it interesting that those same people now don't seem to care so much when the "fake news" is something they agree with.
(06-25-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The picture does not change the story. The picture does not change the issue. The picture is just something Trump has used to get his followers a reason to blame the media instead of him.
This is not the first time Trump has claimed criticism of him is fake news. Which makes me wonder why supposed reputable news organizations like Time don't go out of their way to make sure they're as far from fake news as possible?
You know Trump is going to call it fake news - even when it's not, so why not use a picture that actually depicts the issue instead of somethign that only helps Trump deflect by correctly calling it "fake news"?
(06-25-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: However if you want to talk about "integrity" what about Trumps claim that it was impossible for him to do anything to fix this problem just 3 days before signing the executive order to fix it. That was a flat out lie. If Trump supporters really cared anything about "integrity" then they would be turning away from the President instead of attacking TIME magazine.
Well, we're talking about Trump supporters. I've found that pretty much anyone that claims to be a supporter of any politican is prone to not believing the criticism of said politician.
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - bfine32 - 06-26-2018
(06-26-2018, 11:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Sunset and BfineActually bfine said nothing of the sort so you can take my name out of your mouth. I simply asked you to point to the policy he started and the best retort you could come up with was "So you're saying he didn't do anything", to which of course he did something. Folks can go back and read. Educate yourself
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - fredtoast - 06-26-2018
(06-26-2018, 11:19 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually bfine said nothing of the sort so you can take my name out of your mouth.
Your comment to Sunset when he claimed "nothing had changed"
(06-25-2018, 08:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think what Fred is trying to say is that Trumped ended Catch and release and that became his policy. Given it makes little sense to you or I, but to him it means the world.
Why does it not make any sense to you when it is clear he changed the policy? If you understood that he signed an order changing the policy then wouldn't it "make sense" to claim he changed the policy?
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Wyche'sWarrior - 06-26-2018
(06-20-2018, 06:49 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Good good embrace the darkside. Focus your outrage on something that does not matter even the tiniest amount like some actor whose tweets dont mean a shitting thing.
And play your role as a pawn to defend a president who has been lying to your country.
Sad
Tweets mattered for Roseanne, just sayin......
RE: Trump admin to end separation policy - Wyche'sWarrior - 06-26-2018
(06-21-2018, 01:24 PM)jj22 Wrote: It's a misdemeanor BFritz. People don't lose their kids for trespassing.
We start taking peoples kids due to misdemeanors and well, there will be far more Child Concentration camps around America.
They already have more than you think......