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+--- Thread: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? (/Thread-Are-you-in-favor-of-stacking-the-Supreme-Court)
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Belsnickel - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 01:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: Bels, for example, is quite the rational actor, and him being somewhat torn on that issue goes a long way for me to think it might not be just that catastrophic.
You shouldn't take me being torn as it not being catastrophic. I would say I am torn because I know it would be catastrophic. The rational, bureaucratic, process oriented side of me doesn't want it to happen and it wins out, which is why I'm not advocating for it. But there is the side that is tired of seeing the parties be playing the game with two different sets of rules, and kind of wants to see the board overturned and a refresh.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - hollodero - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You shouldn't take me being torn as it not being catastrophic. I would say I am torn because I know it would be catastrophic. The rational, bureaucratic, process oriented side of me doesn't want it to happen and it wins out, which is why I'm not advocating for it. But there is the side that is tired of seeing the parties be playing the game with two different sets of rules, and kind of wants to see the board overturned and a refresh.
Do you think it could lead to the end of the union and a civil war?
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Belsnickel - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Do you think it could lead to the end of the union and a civil war?
Lead to it? No. That lead up has been going on, already. Could it be the match that sets off a stack of powder kegs that have been accumulating? Absolutely.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - hollodero - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Lead to it? No. That lead up has been going on, already.
Yeah that seems about right.
(10-14-2020, 02:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Could it be the match that sets off a stack of powder kegs that have been accumulating? Absolutely.
OK, that makes sense. In this case I can no longer uphold my stance. On the grounds of "not worth this risk".
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Lead to it? No. That lead up has been going on, already. Could it be the match that sets off a stack of powder kegs that have been accumulating? Absolutely.
(10-14-2020, 02:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah that seems about right.
OK, that makes sense. In this case I can no longer uphold my stance. On the grounds of "not worth this risk".
I was going to comment on your earlier post that both Bel and I are of the same mind on this topic, but further posts, as noted above, made this unnecessary. I'm not nearly as far as Bel on the "tear it down and start fresh" path (which I realize he is not committed to as stated), but we both firmly believe this could, and IMO likely would, be the impetus for the shooting to start.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - hollodero - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I was going to comment on your earlier post that both Bel and I are of the same mind on this topic, but further posts, as noted above, made this unnecessary. I'm not nearly as far as Bel on the "tear it down and start fresh" path (which I realize he is not committed to as stated), but we both firmly believe this could, and IMO likely would, be the impetus for the shooting to start.
Yeah. I had to go second opinion on that, but since you're both rational people, I figure you are right to worry.
I mean, it's a mess really. It feels like giving in to a propensity towards violence. I also have a feeling that republicans would not hesitate a second to stack the court themselves now. Graham would just say that Biden wanted to do the same thing and so it's perfectly ok that they now expand the court and put even more ultra conservatives in. And it would get echoed by all conservatives. I have a feeling this will happen if they somehow hold presidency + senate and really, why wouldn't they, they would get through with it. Won't lead to a civil war this way around.
What a mess.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - bfine32 - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Lead to it? No. That lead up has been going on, already. Could it be the match that sets off a stack of powder kegs that have been accumulating? Absolutely.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/02/886545589/amid-virus-fears-and-protests-firearm-background-checks-hit-all-time-high
My homies are ready:
Quote:The FBI reported that Americans set a new record of 3.9 million background checks to purchase or possess firearms in June. That eclipsed the previous record set in March of 3.7 million background checks.
In fact, seven of 1o highest weeks for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which is run by the FBI and was launched in 1998, have come this year. This includes the first four weeks in June.
Illinois registered the highest number of background checks last month, with 706,404. That state was followed by Kentucky (395,188), Texas (227,232), and Florida (210,415). California rounded out the top five background checks with 158,349.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Belsnickel - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 03:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/07/02/886545589/amid-virus-fears-and-protests-firearm-background-checks-hit-all-time-high
My homies are ready:
I've seen, somewhere, that there has been a large spike in first-time gun buyers, especially people of color. I'm in a couple of liberal gun owner groups and we've been seeing a lot of people getting their first firearms, asking about AK or AR builds, etc. Of course, here I am with my hunting rifles and shotguns.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 10:57 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:
Because, respectfully, your post wasn't worded in a way that easily drew one to that conclusion. Hence my request for clarification.
It isn't intrinsically wrong, no. But, as I stated above, there are numerous changes that would be. IMO stacking the SCOTUS would absolutely be one of them.
Again, it can be. Manipulating the rules or finding loopholes is literally part of the job description for lawyers and politicians.
I honestly think it's because you have no desire to.
So changing the rules isn't wrong. McConnell's obstruction isn't wrong. McConnell is stacking/packing the Supreme Court via obstruction right now as we speak. But, somehow changing the rules to do what McConnell has done through obstruction is somehow wrong? Again, I don't see a far cry difference between stacking/packing the SCOTUS via obstruction or rule change when neither, according to you, are wrong. Some people add the creamer first and the coffee second, others add the coffee first and the creamer second. They're both accomplish the same thing, just different methods of doing the same thing. I don't see one as inherently wrong and not the other. I can honestly say I don't think you have any desire to see it differently for the same reasons you claim I don't.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - oncemoreuntothejimbreech - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 11:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, but it was really just finishing what Harry Reid started.
Harry Reid was responding to Republican obstruction of appointing federal judges which McConnell has filled under Trump.
Quote:I don't think you are grasping how controversial this move would be. What's to stop the GOP from doing the exact same thing the next time they're in power?
Nothing.
What's there to stop McConnell from obstructing a Biden SCOTUS nominee if given the opportunity? Nothing.
Quote:What McConnel did was underhanded, but packing the SCOTUS is a naked power grab. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that doing so could be the impetus for a second civil war.
Again, McConnell stacking/packing the SCOTUS and federal courts is a naked power grab as well. They can't get rid of Obamacare or abortion through the legislative branch so they will pack/stack the courts to overturn them via the judicial branch. They are trying to legislate via the judicial branch with "activist" judges who will rule they way they want since they failed at the legislative level. Gimme a break.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - masterpanthera_t - 10-14-2020
Since we've broached the topic of civil war due to potential power grab by democrats, I'm curious what you guys think would happen if the Democrats undid much of the gerrymandering attributed to the Republicans, to the point that Republicans simply are not able to win a majority ( asked with the presumption that undoing the gerrymandering will lead to Dem. majorities obviously, which may or may not be true)?
I have a feeling that the armed conservative types might view this as a coup regardless of the fact that it's been done before by "their side."
Apologies for slightly deviating from the topic of the thread.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Dill - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 06:49 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Since we've broached the topic of civil war due to potential power grab by democrats, I'm curious what you guys think would happen if the Democrats undid much of the gerrymandering attributed to the Republicans, to the point that Republicans simply are not able to win a majority ( asked with the presumption that undoing the gerrymandering will lead to Dem. majorities obviously, which may or may not be true)?
I have a feeling that the armed conservative types might view this as a coup regardless of the fact that it's been done before by "their side."
Apologies for slightly deviating from the topic of the thread.
I agree with you MasterP. (Though I'm surprised Dems are singled out for a "power grab" here, while the president is staffing the Supreme Court with "his people" just in case the election is "rigged.")
We are "divided" now in part because there is a plurality of people who are impatient with democracy and have no problem with operating a double standard in their favor, from SCOTUS appointments to voter suppression to clipping the Census to gerrymandering. If Trump loses the election they'll support his claim the election was "rigged" and "illegal," and back any attempt to throw the decision back onto the Court or the House.
When Democrats fight back, or merely threaten to respond in kind (e.g. court packing), the other side claims vindication. Efforts to sort out responsibility are dismissed with the assertion "both sides do it."
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Dill - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 02:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Do you think it could lead to the end of the union and a civil war?
LOL No West Coast state would secede, nor would any "Yankee" state--not even Michigan.
What states would actually secede as states? If Texas seceded, wouldn't Austin and San Antonio and Houston then secede from Texas?
If Florida seceded, would it do so without Miami-Dad, Broward and Palm Beach counties? Virginia Beach and Fairfax county in VA?
Where would the lines between states be drawn? Which state would offer to capital the new confederacy--or would the war be a free for all between uncoordinated independents, urban vs rural?
Which side would the US military take? Pretty sure I know which side they WOUDN'T take.
And what "troops" or forces would do the actual fighting? I don't see millions of average Americans taking up arms to destroy their country.
The closest we could come to a civil war is militia groups in some states attempting state house coups or "marching on Washington," and ending same way John Brown did. If there were millions conspirators In Arizona, Oklahoma, North Dakota, and South Carolina sitting on the fence or waiting for the right movement to join the "race war" or whatever, their first experience of an attack helicopter would make the mismatch plain.
The majority population in every state will side with order, as did Texas during the Waco debacle and Oklahoma after the Murrah building was bombed.
How long or how intense such insurrection would be might depend on Fox and some conservative ploliticos--how soon they condemn the violence, "stand back and stand by!" An insurrection of the sort described would harden people's political views though, with hard rightists seen more plainly as a danger to the nation. If that leads to political repression, it could produce more hard rightists, long-term instability, and an ever more authoritarian central government in coming decades. Not a real civil war though.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Sociopathicsteelerfan - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 03:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen, somewhere, that there has been a large spike in first-time gun buyers, especially people of color. I'm in a couple of liberal gun owner groups and we've been seeing a lot of people getting their first firearms, asking about AK or AR builds, etc. Of course, here I am with my hunting rifles and shotguns.
I've noticed it at the range. The number of people there with no clue has really climbed of late. If we end up on the same side of the conflict I'll lend you my Benelli M4.
The last sentence of the above was a joke for anyone looking to be offended. I'd never loan out my M4.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Mickeypoo - 10-14-2020
(10-14-2020, 03:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen, somewhere, that there has been a large spike in first-time gun buyers, especially people of color. I'm in a couple of liberal gun owner groups and we've been seeing a lot of people getting their first firearms, asking about AK or AR builds, etc. Of course, here I am with my hunting rifles and shotguns.
As of the last 3 months I now own 2 rifles and a shotgun. Pistol permit interview done and just waiting for my license.
I have been around and have shot different guns here and there for years, but finally bought some and got my pistol permit done.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Benton - 10-15-2020
(10-14-2020, 03:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen, somewhere, that there has been a large spike in first-time gun buyers, especially people of color. I'm in a couple of liberal gun owner groups and we've been seeing a lot of people getting their first firearms, asking about AK or AR builds, etc. Of course, here I am with my hunting rifles and shotguns.
Hey now, the Germans protested the use of the shotgun in WWI.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Vas Deferens - 10-15-2020
(10-14-2020, 07:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've noticed it at the range. The number of people there with no clue has really climbed of late. If we end up on the same side of the conflict I'll lend you my Benelli M4.
The last sentence of the above was a joke for anyone looking to be offended. I'd never loan out my M4.
I loved shooting my buddies M4. When I was looking to buy a shotgun earlier this year, I wasn't about to pay the ridiculous markup that was being asked. Between Obama 'takin all r guns', this pandemic / riot hysterics and the upcoming unfolding of hells gates with the election; some of these 'private sellers' have to be absolutely elated.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - Belsnickel - 10-15-2020
(10-14-2020, 11:08 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: As of the last 3 months I now own 2 rifles and a shotgun. Pistol permit interview done and just waiting for my license.
I have been around and have shot different guns here and there for years, but finally bought some and got my pistol permit done.
I have purchased two firearms in my life; both of them pistols. Everything else I own has been inherited. One of them I have owned since the day I was born. It's an early 20th century assault rife, otherwise known as a cavalry gun.
(10-15-2020, 12:06 AM)Benton Wrote: Hey now, the Germans protested the use of the shotgun in WWI.
Yeah, I don't think my 16 gauge LeFever side-by-side was on their mind with that one.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - TheUberHuber - 10-16-2020
(10-08-2020, 12:31 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: There is literally nothing unconstitutional about Confirming ACB. The Prez and Senate terms end in January, not October. Even Ginsberg agreed with this and was against packing the court.
Why was the 9 person court ok with the Dems when it was a 5-4 slant in their favor?
Why is it not ok to have a 5-4 or 6-3 slant to Repubs?
Is only one party allowed that?
There is also litterally nothing unconstitutional about expanding the court.
RE: Are you in favor of stacking the Supreme Court? - TheUberHuber - 10-16-2020
(10-08-2020, 12:45 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: He didn't "stack" the courts. "Stacking" the court is expanding the number of seats and then filling them with people leaning the way you want.
He filled open seats, over 100 left open by the Obama admin that they could have filled.
Other than Harris saying so, do you have proof they are unqualified or is it because anything Trump does is bad to you?
This is just some straight up gaslighting by trump and the Republicans. In your case, probably just ignorance. Not sure which is worse tbh.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/oct/02/donald-trump/fact-check-why-barack-obama-failed-fill-over-100-j/