(07-24-2021, 08:59 AM)grampahol Wrote: Seems like too many people are confusing the very word freedom with being able to do whatever you want whenever you want to whoever you want with absolutely zero consequences regardless of the outcomes. 
This is like saying you should be allowed to steal and rob people at will and not have to even worry about the consequences because..uhh..freedom? 
Hey, I should have the freedom to drive drunk at 150 miles an hour through any residential street with children playing close by and if I happen to run over 6 or 7 of them it's their faults for being nearby in the first place because of..uhh..freedom!  

It's silly, stupid and dangerous to be able to spread deadly diseases with no consequences. It's certainly not freedom. I'm to the point that I'm just about openly rooting for people who choose to not be vaccinated out of..uhh..freedom to go ahead and die from covid .. I prefer to have an uninfected gene pool. 

(07-24-2021, 01:48 PM)Go Cards Wrote: No thanks is necessary and not sure what difference it would make if I was a toilet scrubber or a neurosurgeon or anything in between, which is where my job title resides. 

They're all being exposed on a daily basis, well maybe not the surgeon as much as the rest yet still. 

Not exactly sure why you are going back to the depression days of the 30's when the vaccine you referenced was made in 1955. 

Yet still get your point. 

How do we even know this vaccine is good or will work to eradicate this disease as the one invented in 1955 ? Its still in trial phase imo. 
You are already on record in this thread stating that nearly 6,000 people fully vaccinated have died already with many more contracting it. We are still in covids infancy by comparison to polio which is disease that's really opposite of covid that oddly you brought into this debate. 

Does not appear like this 2020 vaccine will eradicate this disease though as the 1955 vaccine did by your own admission and stats provided.   America is polio free these days and large portion of the world is still trembling in fear of covid are they not ?  

Oddly after this thread started a good friend from the Philippines strangely asked my opinion on the vaccine just last night. Guess God has a good sense of humor. 

Her name and her family has come up on the list to receive the Johnson and Johnson vaccine Monday and she is scared having not really seeing the disease touch her area of the Philippines. 

Torn between what to suggest since I was injected with the Pfizer on the first round of vaccines released and J&J track record is somewhat sketchy. Will bounce it off the Drs at work who are pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine and weigh it out before suggesting. Yet she is in full panic mode about receiving vaccine.
 

(07-24-2021, 02:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I get your anger and we could chalk it up to Darwin thinning the herd; unfortunately they put folks other than themselves at risk

(07-24-2021, 08:42 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Great factual information, but wasted on so many that have tin foil hats and believe the government is implanting some sort of tracking device.  Those same people are also responsible (in many areas) for outbreaks of things like the measles (that we thought was gone) because they declined those vaccines for their children.  

Many won't get their kids the HPV vaccination as well.  I lost a friend that I coached as a youth to esophageal cancer traced to the HPV recently.  He was 36 years old.  

This is going to sound incredibly insensitive, but in many of these recent anti-vax movements, it is a simple case of "you can't fix stupid".  

(07-24-2021, 01:48 PM)Go Cards Wrote: No thanks is necessary and not sure what difference it would make if I was a toilet scrubber or a neurosurgeon or anything in between, which is where my job title resides. 

They're all being exposed on a daily basis, well maybe not the surgeon as much as the rest yet still. 

Not exactly sure why you are going back to the depression days of the 30's when the vaccine you referenced was made in 1955. 

Yet still get your point. 

How do we even know this vaccine is good or will work to eradicate this disease as the one invented in 1955 ? Its still in trial phase imo. 
You are already on record in this thread stating that nearly 6,000 people fully vaccinated have died already with many more contracting it. We are still in covids infancy by comparison to polio which is disease that's really opposite of covid that oddly you brought into this debate. 

Does not appear like this 2020 vaccine will eradicate this disease though as the 1955 vaccine did by your own admission and stats provided.   America is polio free these days and large portion of the world is still trembling in fear of covid are they not ?  

Oddly after this thread started a good friend from the Philippines strangely asked my opinion on the vaccine just last night. Guess God has a good sense of humor. 

Her name and her family has come up on the list to receive the Johnson and Johnson vaccine Monday and she is scared having not really seeing the disease touch her area of the Philippines. 

Torn between what to suggest since I was injected with the Pfizer on the first round of vaccines released and J&J track record is somewhat sketchy. Will bounce it off the Drs at work who are pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine and weigh it out before suggesting. Yet she is in full panic mode about receiving vaccine.
 

(07-24-2021, 03:06 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m a PA-C. So I sympathize with you how hard this past year has been although I can’t fully know what you’ve gone through. You’re correct what you do doesn’t matter other than help me understand your level of clinical expertise. Regardless, I very respectfully disagree with some of your statements. It’s okay to disagree. My only goal is to provide the most accurate information I can without emotion or opinion so others can make informed decisions.

PS I have more information on the three vaccines you could pass along to your friend. If you’re interested PM me.

PSS I put the info in the Klotch Covid thread if you want it.

(07-24-2021, 01:51 PM)Go Cards Wrote: I study porography studiously and diligently 23 hours a day, then debate with football fans the other hour. 

Works for me and have formulated my entire life opinions from these studies. 

(07-24-2021, 01:51 PM)Go Cards Wrote: I study porography studiously and diligently 23 hours a day, then debate with football fans the other hour. 

Works for me and have formulated my entire life opinions from these studies. 

(07-23-2021, 02:36 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That is the data from the trials when there wasn’t a delta variant. But, according to this article in JAMA, the vaccines produce better immunity to the delta variant than prior infection.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782139

No vaccination is 100% effective, but they are the best tool we have at preventing infection.


When you have your own professional sports league, I hope you remember you don’t think you can make your own rules.


There are always personal injury lawyers looking for an out of court settlement. But, show me how many vaccines have been recalled from the US market and why?

(07-23-2021, 12:22 PM)Go Cards Wrote: I work on covid floors and Emergency room where they arrive at hospital and am well aware of how bad it is and how the numbers are padded to get that payday as well. 
My mother who has a history of heart problems went to her heart Dr with chest pains and tiredness and was told to go immediately to the ER but not to drive per a heart attack may be imminent but no covid was suspected. I  helped her in vehicle and took her to the door of hospital and then parked my vehicle. Came in about 10 minutes later and was told she had "covid symptoms" per saying she was short of breath and was listed as covid patient. Nobody was allowed to be with her because of this diagnosis even. This person will no longer look me in the eye at work and looks to the floor when passing. She ultimately had a blockage of main artery as suspected and it was cleared and stint added. Not before she was listed as a covid patient though. Money, money, money !

Do not believe these positives with no symptoms either. One person in my household of 3 was diagnosed with covid and we figured all 3 would have contracted since we were told to lockdown with her and expected it. Yet nobody contracted this while breathing same air and sharing bathroom. 

Should be noted that patients have been in isolation with deadly airborne diseases for as long as Ive worked at hospital and we've never come close to being overwhelmed and pneumonia deaths just strangely disappeared for a long time.

They do not mandate vaccines to those who treat the dying covid patients and in fact for the first two months we were denied masks per a shortage while there wasn't even a vaccine close to being available and very few people contracted this most contagious disease in world history whilst being directly exposed until they were put in isolation and then masks could be worn while entering the room. 

If it was so bad as you claim every grocery store clerk would have died long ago per the first thing everybody did was rush to the grocery store before lockdown and they were exposed to everybody during its peak when no masks or vaccines were available. Then everybody had to go back daily because of the toilet paper shortage.

It's a sad death to those who do pass from this horrid disease and know coworkers and friends who did die. But the #'s are far from being legit like you claim. As stated before I know Dr's who highly recommend and others that refuse to get it. 

Believe what you read and I will trust my eyes and experiences. 

But the NFL can definitely tell players they must or not play, its their business and players are free to walk away if not liking. I disagree but it is what it is and would expect anybody with a view like yourself to want all fans in attendance to show their vaccination card before entering too. 

Disagree with this stance though yet all are welcome to combat covid however they choose by becoming a recluse or whatever they think is best for them and their families. 

I shall choose to live my life and am still on fence about next vaccine. Will cross that bridge when it arrives per things can change quickly in between now and then. But as of now I do not see with my own eyes what is being claimed at all. Only thing that has changed is many people are being paid to stay home or are scared and quit. Only forcing the rest of us to be severely overworked during the last year and yet still few are contracting while being so stressed out and beat down from so many hours worked and around the most severe cases daily.   

P.S. NFL players are not school kids. Yet not telling anybody what they should choose to do in this matter. because as I stated I am vaccinated and still on fence about another. But never going to shame anyone who chooses not too per the masses are still walking amongst us and the amount of deaths is virtually the same as previous years before it hit.  

(07-24-2021, 07:31 PM)AussieBengal Wrote: To be honest there should only be one answer to that question and it is have a discussion with your doctor so you can make an informed choice.

(07-25-2021, 09:05 AM)bengaloo Wrote: You could be right, although I think social distancing and washing your hands, not touching face, etc, are far more effective than vaccines and masks both and have been the entire time.  

Quote:The thing is though, we are still dealing with a virus that has a higher survival rate than the vaccine effectiveness rate,

Quote:and no one knows what long term side effects these vaccines could have, which could end up pretty bad in all honesty.

Quote:And as of now, in the UK, the delta strain makes up almost all of the new covid cases, although hospitalization rates are down to almost nothing. Its too early to know for sure, but it looks like delta is just a typical flu mutation, evolving to ensure its own survival. Its going to mutate because it wants to live and to do that it cant kill off its host. It seems like right now that the new variant is more transmittable, but less severe, which makes sense following the basic principals of evolution. The vaccines look like nothing more than another flu shot that people will be pushed to take yearly at least. 

Quote:But we are still dealing with a virus that has a higher survival rate than the vaccine effectiveness rate, and until that changes, there will be a lot of people who dont want the jab, and its their right to feel that way.

Quote:They could lose their jobs, etc, but its a sad fact that it has gone this far. If people are scared of the virus, get the shot, if you're not, dont get the shot. Seems simple. If you are sick, call off work and stay home until you're not, just like we've been doing for most of human history. 

These kind of rules and punishments will backfire in the long run, imo. 

(07-25-2021, 10:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is a great post.  Brother, I feel for you.  The past 30 months have been a virtual shit show about facts and misinformation.  We used to have honest, unbiased, REPORTING (not the political activists of today, but honest reporting) of information that was important to society.

What is a citizen to do?  They are surrounded by news sources, social media, and their own physicians and families all shouting different things.  Mission accomplished, social engineers, we are clearly divided.

Two points I wish to respond to about your post:

The first, is the point about hospitals stating "covid-like symptoms" and calling it covid for billing purposes.  100% accurate.  Why did they do that?  It wasn't just money and greed, though that is the root of it, but it had to do with their loss of their greatest source of income:  elective surgeries.  Hip and knee replacements pay everyone in the hospital very well.  I have no problem with that as it helped to balance out the poor reimbursement on things such as a COPD stay.  It wasn't meant to offset the loss of those surgeries, but that is exactly what the inflated covid reimbursement became.  And therefore(to your last point), you got vastly inflated numbers of covid cases, and fatalities.  Don't believe me?  Look at the number of deaths attributed to the flu.  It was barely a number.  Some tin foil hat moron said "See!  Masks work!  It almost eliminated the flu!"  Good grief.

The consequences of those inflated numbers was the fear-mongering that lead to massive shutdowns and economic crippling. And the worst is yet to come.  On a recent flight (my first since covid), there were virtually no restaurants open in the Philly and Boston airports.  Charlotte?  Booming.  Why the difference?  State leadership, I suppose, and I was told they couldn't get anyone to work those jobs.  If we think everyone taking handouts that are perfectly capable of working won't come back to bite this country in the ass, just wait.  

That all being said, the bottom line is covid is real, and is a serious threat to anyone that is elderly or immune compromised.  The nation had a huge dilemma:  Do they shut down to protect a specific group that likely is retire?  Right or wrong, they shut down to help protect those at most risk.  There is a flu shot, and it helps protect the elderly who are most at risk of death from the flu because they can't handle the stress on their bodies.  There is a pneumonia vax.  There is a shingles vax.  These are designed to protect people.   The fact that the covid vaccine is based on something called messenger RNA technology instead of a piece of the virus only makes it safer and more effective.  This technology has been around for about a decade or more and the scientist that developed it won the Nobel Prize for medicine.  It is being used for a number of rare diseases and represents a huge step in medicine.  There is a covid vaccine based on this technology and is accessible to everyone.  I look at it as maybe everyone doesn't need to get it but all those at risk absolutely should.  I got it because of my job and the fact that I take care of my folks.  

I don't consider myself one of those at risk, but if my getting the vaccine helps to open our country back up, I am glad to do my part.  

(07-25-2021, 10:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is a great post.  Brother, I feel for you.  The past 30 months have been a virtual shit show about facts and misinformation.  We used to have honest, unbiased, REPORTING (not the political activists of today, but honest reporting) of information that was important to society.

What is a citizen to do?  They are surrounded by news sources, social media, and their own physicians and families all shouting different things.  Mission accomplished, social engineers, we are clearly divided.

Two points I wish to respond to about your post:

The first, is the point about hospitals stating "covid-like symptoms" and calling it covid for billing purposes.  100% accurate.  Why did they do that?  It wasn't just money and greed, though that is the root of it, but it had to do with their loss of their greatest source of income:  elective surgeries.  Hip and knee replacements pay everyone in the hospital very well.  I have no problem with that as it helped to balance out the poor reimbursement on things such as a COPD stay.  It wasn't meant to offset the loss of those surgeries, but that is exactly what the inflated covid reimbursement became.  And therefore(to your last point), you got vastly inflated numbers of covid cases, and fatalities.  Don't believe me?  Look at the number of deaths attributed to the flu.  It was barely a number.  Some tin foil hat moron said "See!  Masks work!  It almost eliminated the flu!"  Good grief.

The consequences of those inflated numbers was the fear-mongering that lead to massive shutdowns and economic crippling. And the worst is yet to come.  On a recent flight (my first since covid), there were virtually no restaurants open in the Philly and Boston airports.  Charlotte?  Booming.  Why the difference?  State leadership, I suppose, and I was told they couldn't get anyone to work those jobs.  If we think everyone taking handouts that are perfectly capable of working won't come back to bite this country in the ass, just wait.  

That all being said, the bottom line is covid is real, and is a serious threat to anyone that is elderly or immune compromised.  The nation had a huge dilemma:  Do they shut down to protect a specific group that likely is retire?  Right or wrong, they shut down to help protect those at most risk.  There is a flu shot, and it helps protect the elderly who are most at risk of death from the flu because they can't handle the stress on their bodies.  There is a pneumonia vax.  There is a shingles vax.  These are designed to protect people.   The fact that the covid vaccine is based on something called messenger RNA technology instead of a piece of the virus only makes it safer and more effective.  This technology has been around for about a decade or more and the scientist that developed it won the Nobel Prize for medicine.  It is being used for a number of rare diseases and represents a huge step in medicine.  There is a covid vaccine based on this technology and is accessible to everyone.  I look at it as maybe everyone doesn't need to get it but all those at risk absolutely should.  I got it because of my job and the fact that I take care of my folks.  

I don't consider myself one of those at risk, but if my getting the vaccine helps to open our country back up, I am glad to do my part.  

(07-25-2021, 12:14 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Hospitals get paid for services rendered.  Not deaths.

(07-24-2021, 08:59 AM)grampahol Wrote: Seems like too many people are confusing the very word freedom with being able to do whatever you want whenever you want to whoever you want with absolutely zero consequences regardless of the outcomes. 
This is like saying you should be allowed to steal and rob people at will and not have to even worry about the consequences because..uhh..freedom? 
Hey, I should have the freedom to drive drunk at 150 miles an hour through any residential street with children playing close by and if I happen to run over 6 or 7 of them it's their faults for being nearby in the first place because of..uhh..freedom!  

It's silly, stupid and dangerous to be able to spread deadly diseases with no consequences. It's certainly not freedom. I'm to the point that I'm just about openly rooting for people who choose to not be vaccinated out of..uhh..freedom to go ahead and die from covid .. I prefer to have an uninfected gene pool. 

(07-25-2021, 01:36 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Fact, but get extra money when rendering services to covid patients. 

Its the people paying extra money that make big deal out of the deaths as to apparently to spread fear for some strange reason, imo. 

Am through with this and feel free to say whatever you want about my opinions per you being a legend already and how could my layman opinions possibly even begin to sway anyone anyhow.  The thread is yours to say as you will without anymore input from me which only become minor speed bumps for you to so easily navigate anyway.  Yielding to your superior intellect and hands on experience and pray that you stay safe while working with the sick brother. 

By the way have you contracted covid  ? Or maybe a high percentage the physicians and nurses you work with per not being vaccinated and obviously being in such a close proximity with sick in the long months before vaccination ?

 Never mind got to go to work now anyway and will not check anything in this thread from this point forward. Would rather talk football until season gets cancelled. Which hopefully does not happen, but from the sounds of popular opinion it probably should be for everybody's safety.  Am cool with anything that saves lives even if I think its extreme. But have been wrong before so am fine erring on the side of caution for the masses. Just so glad I dropped my season tickets this year, which was very hard being on the front row right behind the Bengals bench for 3 decades. Yet the time was right and its clearly becoming something other than the escape from daily routine that I so looked forward to every home game at PBS.   

Rock on and I respect your posts even if we slightly disagree on this subject. 
Stay safe and Who-Dey !

(07-25-2021, 02:06 PM)Synric Wrote: I received the Pfizer Vaccine and had a mildly severe reaction. Fever, Nausea, Headache... it felt like my bones were melting in my body. Of course I know alot of other people that received it and didnt have reactions at all.

Even knowing I would have a poor reaction I would have still been vaccinated because I travel for work all over the tri-state area and enter people homes. I do not wish to spread an illness that could hurt others and wouldnt want anyone spreading it to hurt my family.