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+---- Thread: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment (/Thread-Legitimate-Arguments-Against-the-2nd-Amendment)
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:14 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I stated that I drove in Korea. Your statement here reads that my claims about driving in Korea are completely false.
No. My statement does not say anything like that at all. You are either delusional or can not read.
All I ever said was that your experiences driving in Kores was anecdotal and did not represent what was really happening.
Although it did get a little confusing when you made the contradictory claims that people did not drive drunk in Korea, but that people id actually drive drunk in Korea but they were not arrested. Still not sure which one of those comments was supposed to be true.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:18 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Well, now you see why I am not a hard core anarchist?
There needs to be some governing. However we haven't came across any major issues yet.
As far as the rules go, people follow the non aggression principle. We are all voluntary and anyone can opt out if they so choose to do so.
The problem is when it is on a large scale people don't get to opt out.
No. The problem is when people disagree and neither one wants to opt out.
So how do you resolve conflicts? Who makes and enforces the rules? If you have not thought this out and made plans to resolve these conflicts then your little gis not really prepared to survive anything. It is not going to be the utopia that you envision in your head.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ah, groups of people coming together. Now we are talking about something that really happened in history.
Groups of people did come together because everyone benefits from this. That is what leads to governments.
If people were better off as individuals with no ruls then they would have never formed groups that evolved into governments.
This is exactly how history has proven that people need to work together under group rules. Anyone who thinks a lone individual can survive and thrive while the rest of society functions as a group is just completely ignorant of history.
Small groups coming together is a good thing. They can then work with other groups and that is also a good thing. People can opt out if they choose and they can leave one group and join another if the other group will take them.
On a large scale, like the US. We have people that think what is legal in California should be legal in Kentucky. That is where it differs from small scale grouping.
For instance, and don't derail the thread arguing about it, Same sex marriage. There were already states that allowed it. However the decision from the SCOTUS took away a State's right to not recognize Same Sex marriage. To you it was a victory, because you support same sex marriage. To others that don't support same sex marriages, it was a further reminder that other people will impose their rules onto them. If it was legal in California, then there is nothing stopping a gay couple from living in California. However the gay couple didn't want to live in California, they wanted to live in Kentucky, and in Kentucky it was illegal. So it doesn't allow for people that don't support this lifestyle to opt out of the system.
It is either you OBEY or else. That is totalitarian and not a country I want to live in or be a part of. I want to be free to choose the area that I want to raise my children in.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No. The problem is when people disagree and neither one wants to opt out.
So how do you resolve conflicts? Who makes and enforces the rules? If you have not thought this out and made plans to resolve these conflicts then your little gis not really prepared to survive anything. It is not going to be the utopia that you envision in your head.
Wrong.
The opt out is simple. There is a vote and the vote is what is accepted.
If someone disagrees with the vote, then they can either pack up and leave or they can just go along with the vote.
Funny, I never called anything a utopia, that is what you think is possible. I know utopia are not at all possible. However there are better ways to do things.
As far as who enforces the rules? We all do. It is called self policing. Again, we have yet to have any conflicts. Now that may change as our children get older. Nothing breeds conflict as much as children do.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No. My statement does not say anything like that at all. You are either delusional or can not read.
All I ever said was that your experiences driving in Kores was anecdotal and did not represent what was really happening.
Although it did get a little confusing when you made the contradictory claims that people did not drive drunk in Korea, but that people id actually drive drunk in Korea but they were not arrested. Still not sure which one of those comments was supposed to be true.
Oh my goodness.
Fred... Fred
You bring me joy like no other.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - michaelsean - 02-23-2016
Quote:Yeah, I usually am with my friends and family. We are a pretty nice size group as well. More than 20 people. I realized very early when I started researching prepping that one thing most preppers forget is that there is more to survival than just living. You should also thrive. You should be able to have a community and your children should have social contact with other kids their age.You have all that? Well hell now there's a hundred people coming if the spoils are that rich. You better find some more like minded people. More than anyone else has or you will be conqured sooner or later.
So I have looked for and found other like minded people. Yes, they are white, they are of traditional values, men and women both, most are Christian, but some are pagan and a few are atheist. We work together as a community to build strong culture and identity for our children.
As of now, if an event happened and society came crashing down, we wouldn't have to fight with anyone. We have our land, our food and water. We even have the means to defend what we have.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:27 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: For instance, and don't derail the thread arguing about it, Same sex marriage. There were already states that allowed it. However the decision from the SCOTUS took away a State's right to not recognize Same Sex marriage. To you it was a victory, because you support same sex marriage. To others that don't support same sex marriages, it was a further reminder that other people will impose their rules onto them. If it was legal in California, then there is nothing stopping a gay couple from living in California. However the gay couple didn't want to live in California, they wanted to live in Kentucky, and in Kentucky it was illegal. So it doesn't allow for people that don't support this lifestyle to opt out of the system.
It is either you OBEY or else. That is totalitarian and not a country I want to live in or be a part of. I want to be free to choose the area that I want to raise my children in.
Treating everyone equally is not oppression. If the government forced you to marry another man then you would have a point. But that never happened.
If you want to be free to make your own rules then you will have to create your own country. And you are never going to be able to do this.
Only a child would think there would ever be a perfect fairy land where you get to make every rule about everything. Adults realize that in order to live as a society we have to follow rules. And adults realize that there is not going to be a perfect place where everyone agrees 100% with everyone else. So the best we can do is create systems that treat everyone fairly.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:32 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: The opt out is simple. There is a vote and the vote is what is accepted.
If someone disagrees with the vote, then they can either pack up and leave or they can just go along with the vote.
So basically exactly the same as in the current Uited states. Or as you describe it....
(02-23-2016, 07:27 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: It is either you OBEY or else. That is totalitarian and not a country I want to live in or be a part of. I want to be free to choose the area that I want to raise my children in.
You eoither follow the urles or you are banned from your little group. How is that different from "Obey or else"?
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Treating everyone equally is not oppression. If the government forced you to marry another man then you would have a point. But that never happened.
If you want to be free to make your own rules then you will have to create your own country. And you are never going to be able to do this.
Only a child would think there would ever be a perfect fairy land where you get to make every rule about everything. Adults realize that in order to live as a society we have to follow rules. And adults realize that there is not going to be a perfect place where everyone agrees 100% with everyone else. So the best we can do is create systems that treat everyone fairly.
Again. Tell me where I am claiming that my way is perfect? Is it better than yours? ABSOLUTELY. But perfect? No.
As to treating everyone equally.... OK.
Making people associate with people that they don't want to is oppression. I should be free to work with, live around and associate with people of my own choosing.
So if I wanted to raise my children in a community that doesn't have a gay couple in it. I would make sure, that I did not move to a place where gay couples reside. If California wants to legalize same sex marriage, fine. Let people who support it and want to be around it move there. If Kentucky doesn't want to allow it, then that would be a place where I could move my family too.
As of right now. Hungary is a place where they don't recognize same sex marriages. They are anti-immigration and very traditional.
I have many friends who are thinking heavily about moving to Hungary, and some have already made the move. I am cautious, because the grass isn't always greener. However, as of now, I am impressed with what Hungary has to offer. Which if you think about it, is a sad state for the US. That people are leaving it, because of Marxist thinkers wanting to force their views onto everyone else.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So basically exactly the same as in the current Uited states. Or as you describe it....
You eoither follow the urles or you are banned from your little group. How is that different from "Obey or else"?
Clueless aren't you. Are we locking someone up for not obeying?
No, they can stay, they just have to follow the groups rules.
If they don't want to, then they are free to leave. No one is forced to stay in.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:47 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I should be free to work with, live around and associate with people of my own choosing.
But why should that law only apply to you and not everyone else?
Why do you get to decide who works where you work and lives where you live?
Why should you have this power and no one else?
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You have all that? Well hell now there's a hundred people coming if the spoils are that rich. You better find some more like minded people. More than anyone else has or you will be conqured sooner or later.
Well, you would need to know where we were for that to happen. Sorry bud, but no, I will not divulge that intell.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But why should that law only apply to you and not everyone else?
Why do you get to decide who works where you work and lives where you live?
Why should you have this power and no one else?
Why should you?
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:49 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Clueless aren't you. Are we locking someone up for not obeying?
No, they can stay, they just have to follow the groups rules.
If they don't want to, then they are free to leave. No one is forced to stay in.
And no one is forcing you to stay anywhere either.
So how is your group any different from the United States when it comes to "Obey or else"? You are free to opt out anytime you want.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:52 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Why should you?
I don't.
I believe everyone should have an equal stay. I don't believe I should have any power to tell people where to work or live.
If I had a job where I didn't like working with people then I would find another job, or start my own business.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But why should that law only apply to you and not everyone else?
Why do you get to decide who works where you work and lives where you live?
Why should you have this power and no one else?
Other people should also have that right.
Have I said that Fred can't hang out with gay or black people?
Nope.
You can hang out with whoever you wish.
Have I said that Fred can't hire who he wants?
Nope.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - Sovereign Nation - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't.
I believe everyone should have an equal stay. I don't believe I should have any power to tell people where to work or live.
If I had a job where I didn't like working with people then I would find another job, or start my own business.
What!?
You would what!?
That is what I have been saying.
You don't like something... move away and find another job or start your own business.
California accepts gay people - Kentucky doesn't. So if you want to be gay then be gay in California. Stay away from Kentucky.
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:55 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Other people should also have that right.
Have I said that Fred can't hang out with gay or black people?
Nope.
You can hang out with whoever you wish.
Have I said that Fred can't hire who he wants?
Nope.
I am lost.
Who is telling you who you have to work with or live around? Who is denying you that right?
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - michaelsean - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:49 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Clueless aren't you. Are we locking someone up for not obeying?
No, they can stay, they just have to follow the groups rules.
If they don't want to, then they are free to leave. No one is forced to stay in.
What happens if they don't want to obey the rules and don't want to leave?
RE: Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment - fredtoast - 02-23-2016
(02-23-2016, 07:57 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: California accepts gay people - Kentucky doesn't. So if you want to be gay then be gay in California. Stay away from Kentucky.
So you are forcing people to live somewhere that they do not want to live?
Isn't that exactly what you were complaining about? Don't you want to live where ever you want? Don't you think you are entitled to that freedom?
You are basically supporting the most oppressive type of Government (Theocracy with no religious freedom) and claiming that you believe in maximum freedom.