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+--- Thread: {The Ultimate ANDY DALTON Mega Thread} (/Thread-The-Ultimate-ANDY-DALTON-Mega-Thread)
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RE: Time to end the Dalton era - pally - 11-06-2017
Andy is the least of our issues right now. We've seen nothing from McCarron to show he would be doing any better even under the best of circumstances.
Name any other QB in the league who has done better than Dalton has despite having 4 different coordinators, 3 different QB coaches, and a sieve of an OL in just 6 1/2 years
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Nicomo Cosca - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 11:48 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Palmer Era - 38 wins 41 losses
Dalton Era - 61 wins 40 losses
Crazy. I'm not sure how exact that is...but wow.
Easy, Dalton has had more complete teams with better defenses.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Circleville Guy - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 03:20 AM)TKUHL Wrote: There is and always has been doubts about Dalton whether its his play, decision making or leadership. There has also been excuses every year as to why Dalton can't perform. He has no receivers, no TE no run game and now no time. When he has time he's off. Personally I think he lacks the leadership and consistency to take this team all the way. I've felt this way about him for a few years. If a miracle happens and MB cleans house after this season it would make sense that the new coach would want to bri QBIf you were objective and graded each starter at their position, you might understand that no QB is leading this current roster anywhere. Football isn't as simple as just changing the QB or almost every team would be constantly doing it.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - grampahol - 11-06-2017
Problem is finding a QB good enough..they don't exactly grow on trees along the Ohio river.
Look no further than the mistake on the lake to see how easy it is to create a QB killing field..
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Benton - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Easy, Dalton has had more complete teams with better defenses.
I went back and looked, and the defense is way betterer. The offense is slightly betterer too. At least as far as overall points for/against.
CP: PF/PA
04- 374 (10th)/372 (22nd)
05- 421 (4th)/350 (22nd)
06- 373 (8th)/331 (17th)
07- 380 (11th)/385 (24th)
09- 305 (22nd)/291 (6th)
10- 322 (22nd)/396 (24th)
Avg offense rank: 13th
Avg. defense rank: 19th
AD: PF/PA
11- 344 (8th)/322 (9th)
12- 391 (12th)/320 (8th)
13- 430 (6th)/305 (5th)
14- 365 (15th)/344 (12th)
15- 419 (7th)/279 (2nd)
16- 325 (24th)/ 315 (8th)
Avg offense rank: 12th
Avg. defense rank: 8th
Of course, there's lots more to it than just averages. My personal opinion is our defense got a lot better in 08 when Zimmer came and — outside of 2010 — stayed in the top 10 during his run. That was the difference maker. Overall, though, I think on offense, Carson had better players around him than AD has had.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Clappington - 11-06-2017
Everyone knows Andy isn't the answer lots of us have been saying it since he was first drafted. He always needs everything to be perfect for him to even be mediocre. He's a middle of the pack qb at best and you don't even get that most of the time.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - muskiesfan - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:40 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Blake bortles just smoked us. Josh mccown has the jets competitive. Trying a different QB isnt the end of the world.
I never said it was and I have no problem moving on from Andy if he were the problem. He's not though. Everyone is in agreement that the coaching is bad. Everyone also seems to believe that the bad coaching is affecting everything....................except Dalton. If we roll with an entirely new coaching staff next season and address the OLine, why not give him another year to see if he rebounds with better coaching?
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - corpjet - 11-06-2017
We have lots of holes to fix, I hate to give up on a proven commodity ( top 15 NFL QB) and would rather invest in the trenches where we can get some line-man through the draft and FA.
As others have said I don't think we need a complete rebuild, we have lots of solid pieces to be competitive next year but the only way to do is with a new o-line.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - muskiesfan - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 01:16 PM)Clappington Wrote: Everyone knows Andy isn't the answer lots of us have been saying it since he was first drafted. He always needs everything to be perfect for him to even be mediocre. He's a middle of the pack qb at best and you don't even get that most of the time.
When has everything been perfect for him? Andy is a fine QB. He is definitely good enough to win with. People need to actually watch or learn football instead of just instantly blaming everything on Dalton.
I've posted the stats before, so I'm not going to do it again. However, Andy has put up more good games (100 or better passer rating) than the rest of the QBs in the AFCN. He also does it better than Cam, Luck, and several other QBs that people say are better than him. On the flip side, he has bad games less than most QBs in the league as well. People seem to think because he doesn't throw for 400 yards and 4 TDs every game that he's not good when that's simply not true.
Next you'll try to tell me how bad his deep ball is when statistically he's one of the best deep ball passers in the league. Just like you'll probably tell me how bad he is when pressured when statistically, he's one of the best QBs in the league when under pressure. Of course your best argument is going to be when you tell me stats don't tell the story and you can't base everything off of stats. So if stats aren't important, why do they bother keeping track of them?
The honest, best, and real answer is that people didn't like Andy when he was drafted and never gave him a chance. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The problem is, when you look at the numbers, Dalton is actually a good QB but people aren't willing to bend or change their opinion.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Wyche'sWarrior - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 04:04 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Clearly someone that has NEVER played a down of Football, period.
I've explained this dozens of times, thankfully, those who understand the X's and O's of Football have responded accordingly.
Dalton is NOT free from blame, doubt, questioning or otherwise. He has made mistakes, but the disaster you are witnessing is as much Dalton's problem as it is mine. The offensive line is the bridge to the offense. The unspoken heroes of Football. They lack technical form, skill and coaching to move lines and keep their Qb from getting destroyed. When your QB is getting hit with FREE blitzers (untouched) you get rattled, your head count gets quicker, and you second guess decisions (double pumps). Furthermore, when you don't have a receiver open (see the Jags game) you can't create a play by throwing into double coverage. It just doesn't work that way.
Dalton will ALWAYS receive the most blame, he touches the ball the most. That being said, this isn't an 'excuse' but merely looking at what is ACTUALLY going on. Jaguars are 32nd in rushing defense, we had what, 40 yards on them?
Enough said.
Truly is.....enough said.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - ochocincos - 11-06-2017
It's expected that Cousins will leave Washington this offseason via FA. If that happens, it could make a lot of sense for Washington to trade for Dalton to be with Gruden. Dalton has a team-friendly contract and was pretty solid with Gruden in the past. Curious as to what is considered "fair" trade value for Dalton though. I'd imagine at least a first round pick, just don't know what else it would/should take.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - rfaulk34 - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:08 AM)Trademark Wrote: If and when Lewis is gone after this season, it’s time to trade Dalton. The man can’t make a deep throw to save his life. He had Green wide open, it looks like that is what helped contribute to his frustrations today. Really hope they move forward with McCarron instead
If you want things to get worse than they already are, sure, go ahead and put McCarron in.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - rfaulk34 - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:52 AM)jowczarski Wrote: If you've watched this team for two years and all you can do is go to the QB...not sure you're really looking at the whole picture. Yes, he struggles with that deep sideline ball. Yes, he needs to give his guy a chance vs. it going OB. But...all I can say is that yes, one day, someone other than 14 will throw footballs for the Bengals.
But it won't be 5. And if you think 5 would be having success with this team the last two years ... well, again, to my original point that you're not reallyi seeing the entire picture.
True. And welcome to the (any) Bengals board fan reaction...
Apparently, not too many people have noticed that Dalton is throwing a different deep ball, on some occasions, than he has in the past. He's been putting more air under it to try and drop in to the receiver at an angle that's harder to defend. He still needs a lot of work with this, since those balls seem to sail wide on him.
Truth is, it's a bad ball to try and throw on the sidelines. It works much better in the middle of the field.
Jim, do me a favor and tell that to Dalton next time you talk to him.
EDIT: Just to clarify, it's a bad ball to throw, if you're right handed and throwing to the right sideline.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - cincyfan429 - 11-06-2017
Dalton is taking too much blame on this years failures. He is a good QB but he has no protection and he has no run game. Put a stud O Line on this team and watch his numbers go through the roof. Brady couldn't win with this team. So does that mean Brady is a bad QB. There are problems on this team that need to be fixed and Dalton is not one of them. Poor ownership, coaching and management are not helping this team any.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Shake n Blake - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 04:04 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Dalton will ALWAYS receive the most blame, he touches the ball the most. That being said, this isn't an 'excuse' but merely looking at what is ACTUALLY going on. Jaguars are 32nd in rushing defense, we had what, 40 yards on them?
Enough said.
29 yards. 29. yards. Pathetic isn't the word.
(11-06-2017, 01:13 PM)Benton Wrote: Of course, there's lots more to it than just averages. My personal opinion is our defense got a lot better in 08 when Zimmer came and — outside of 2010 — stayed in the top 10 during his run. That was the difference maker. Overall, though, I think on offense, Carson had better players around him than AD has had.
Exactly. Dalton has had the better defense for the most part (although Palmer had a top 5 defense in 2009, and led the league in forced turnovers in 2005). Palmer had the better weapons. Better #2 WR in Housh. Easily had the better run game. Easily had the better line until 2008-09.
(11-06-2017, 04:02 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True. And welcome to the (any) Bengals board fan reaction...
Apparently, not too many people have noticed that Dalton is throwing a different deep ball, on some occasions, than he has in the past. He's been putting more air under it to try and drop in to the receiver at an angle that's harder to defend. He still needs a lot of work with this, since those balls seem to sail wide on him.
Truth is, it's a bad ball to try and throw on the sidelines. It works much better in the middle of the field.
Jim, do me a favor and tell that to Dalton next time you talk to him.
EDIT: Just to clarify, it's a bad ball to throw, if you're right handed and throwing to the right sideline.
Agreed. It'd be nice if they moved AJ Green around though. Does he always need to line up on the right? Can we shift him occasionally? Can we attack the middle with him? I've always felt we've lacked creativity with Green.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Synric - 11-06-2017
Lets say the Cincinnati Bengals did want to deal Andy Dalton how would they go about doing it?
First the Bengals would have to decide what hes worth. Andy is a 30 year old veteran QB with seven seasons starting experience and has been healthy most of his career. In seven years, he has a over all winning record taking his team to the playoffs five times in a row before going one and done five times in a row... After his third and quickly followed by a fourth OC he has two losing seasons. Dalton's Contract might be the most enticing part of the deal. From what I understand Cincy has paid Andy all his guaranteed money so he is playing for incentives through 2020. With all that considered I'm arguing he is worth at least a first and a second before the draft and a first and two seconds after the draft.
A terrifying name also creeps in during an Andy Dalton trade hypothetical....Russell Bodine. I see three choices: Resign either McCarron or Bodine to have experience calling out protections, find and sign another veteran center in a offensive line talent starved league, or run with a rookie QB and center.
If I had the choice I would go with the safest course...I would draft a QB and a center but Dalton would be the starter in 2018. If the center was playing well recognizing the defensive schemes then they could fleece a team before the trade deadline.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Hammerstripes - 11-06-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:25 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Getting rid of a reliable and decent QB in order to start a guy who doesn't want to be here doesn't sound like a step in the right direction. Better to just say that this franchise clearly keeps success at bay so we may as well toss Mixon, Ross, and McCarron out there so we can...I don't know...watch them fail and then make excuses before we give up on them, too.
Who doesn't want to be here? McCarron? He doesn't want to be here simply because he isn't starting.
(11-06-2017, 12:50 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That really only holds water if you don't count owner, GM, and HC as supporting cast.
Funny. There have been several other teams with crap front offices that have won playoff games. Don't even try to tell me that the Bengals haven't had enough talent to win multiple playoff games. Shoot, it's not even just the playoffs. ANY primetime game comes along and Andy plays poorly.
(11-06-2017, 01:05 AM)cincyfan429 Wrote: Dalton is not the problem the O Line is. Andy is fine if we had a line that could protect him. You cant loose 2 quality lineman and think all will be fine. Give him time and he will play much better. When are O Line was one of the best in the league we were a dangerous team. You win this game with a great O Line. Everybody loves big name RB, QB and WR but the O Line is what is key.
True, but we've had him for how long and where have we gotten? Every year it's one and done.
(11-06-2017, 11:31 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: you have to have protection to make deep throws....
Its time for the marvin lewis era to end... Keep Dalton till you get you next franchise QB in the draft. McCarron isn't gonna be the answer.
everyone blaming Dalton ... DO YOU EVEN WATCH FOOTBALL?
I'm not putting the all of the blame on him, but it's obvious he can't get over the hump with this team.
(11-06-2017, 12:51 PM)grampahol Wrote: Problem is finding a QB good enough..they don't exactly grow on trees along the Ohio river.
Look no further than the mistake on the lake to see how easy it is to create a QB killing field..
Well, the problem hasn't been taking a QB for Cleveland it's been passing them up. Tell me that they wouldn't be set right now if they had pulled the trigger on Wentz, Goff or even Watson and Mahomes.
Look no further than some of the teams (like the Eagles, Rams, Raiders and Cowboys) that combined a good young QB with good coaching.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Circleville Guy - 11-06-2017
My guess is that most of the people laying this at Daltons feet now are the same one's that predicted the Bengals would go 10-6 or 11-5. They didn't get how a weak OL affects the QB, the RB, the D being tired and everything else. You were way wrong then and you're wrong now. Most of you say now that you saw the bad OK but you predicted 10-11 wins. Lmao, too prideful to own up.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - Nately120 - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:40 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Blake bortles just smoked us. Josh mccown has the jets competitive. Trying a different QB isnt the end of the world.
Meh, by that logic we could move on from Mixon because the Cardinals and Eagles used Peterson and Ajayi immediately and got more production in their first game than Mixon gets in weeks at a time.
The point is, as soon as we put McCarron in so we can "see what we have in him" we're going to watch about 5 minutes of football before declaring that we can't judge him because our line is so awful. That's just the reality of the situation.
RE: Time to end the Dalton era - PhilHos - 11-07-2017
(11-06-2017, 12:08 AM)Trademark Wrote: If and when Lewis is gone after this season, it’s time to trade Dalton. The man can’t make a deep throw to save his life. He had Green wide open, it looks like that is what helped contribute to his frustrations today. Really hope they move forward with McCarron instead
Trademark, I've never thought of you as stupid. I may have disagreed with you from time to time, but I never thought of you as stupid. With that said, this has to be the stupidest post I've ever seen on this particular forum (don't worry, I've seen far stupider on the old board).