Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Printable Version +- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (http://thebengalsboard.com) +-- Forum: Off Topic Forums (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Off-Topic-Forums) +--- Forum: Politics & Religion 2.0 (http://thebengalsboard.com/Forum-Politics-Religion-2-0) +--- Thread: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? (/Thread-Should-Catholic-voters-support-Democrats) Pages:
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Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - GMDino - 08-21-2020 This was shared on Facebook by a gentleman that I went to high school with (He was a senior when I was a freshman but his brother and my sister graduated together). He is also an ex-priest. I realize it is almost two years old but I thought it was worth sharing as an opposing view to the oft proposed believe that no Catholic should vote for anyone who supports abortion rights. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/scottericalt/what-ratzinger-and-the-cdf-really-said-about-voting-for-pro-choice-candidates/?fbclid=IwAR2CpxKsxqwBkIxrMoEOL3PagKI36-soGCJ_SNksLDKPRDJpl_1JOlKcQ20 Quote:What Ratzinger and the CDF Really Said About Voting for Pro-Choice Candidates. Again this is just for people to read and form their own takes and opinions. I did not write the article nor did I publish it originally. It is just my opinion that it may spark conversation on the subject where both sides can express their thoughts. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Truck_1_0_1_ - 08-21-2020 (08-21-2020, 10:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: This was shared on Facebook by a gentleman that I went to high school with (He was a senior when I was a freshman but his brother and my sister graduated together). He is also an ex-priest. I'm a fairly devout Catholic and I would never in my life vote right wing. Ever. As mentioned 50 times previously, we are taught IN CATHOLIC SCHOOL, from grades 8-12, to read the Bible contextually and derive the symbolism/meaning/reasoning behind certain declarations and statements, as opposed to following the Bible 1:1, like those who think Biden will, "hurt God." Furthermore: Quote:Nowhere does the CDF tells us what those “proportionate reasons” are. This means that the Church leaves it to the individual’s own prudential judgment; the Church leaves it to the individual’s own conscience before God. Bingo, exactly what I was going to say; just because I vote for someone who is pro-choice, doesn't mean that I'm going to 100% abort if my wife gets pregnant, it's 2 different things. But if someone I know is forcibly raped and gets pregnant (God forbid that to happen to anyone close to me) and they came to me for advice, while I would tell them that the choice is theirs, I would be first in line to say that an abortion is absolutely not wrong in this case: I'd say that's a pretty morally-just way of looking at it. This goes back to the whole, "everything is black and white," stance/viewpoint/attitude that the world (specifically, the US) has today, when in reality it is a grey, grey world and that will NEVER change. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Yojimbo - 08-21-2020 I really don’t like any line of thought that says a group of voters, be it religion, gender, ethnicity, should be a monolith. Unless we’re talking about The Borg. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - michaelsean - 08-22-2020 I don’t think the Church has actually come out on this, but remember that if you are a devout follower of the Church, that doesn’t necessarily mean you are off the hook. Procuring or assisting in an abortion in any way is latae sententiae excommunicate. Politicians who run on supporting pro-choice or vote for laws in favor of abortion are not allowed to receive communion. The good news is it is now much easier to be brought back into the Church if you are excommunicate due to abortion as it only takes a priest and not a bishop. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - samhain - 08-22-2020 (08-21-2020, 03:15 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I'm a fairly devout Catholic and I would never in my life vote right wing. Ever. I remember being taught contextualism in my Catholic school curriculum as well. I'm frankly surprised that the hardcore Catholic Right hasn't tried to attack and root out that particular concept. Looking at things contextually is death for any fundamentalist philosophy. As for what the church demands of me: LOL. If I thought they had an ounce of moral authority at this point, I'd have gone back to them, and my son would be in Catholic school. The church is a part of my heritage and it formed a lot of my outlook on life. However, due to certain "stuff" and "things" I have a hard time granting them much sway over me these days. Their malfeasance is so widespread and their indifference was the picture of dismissive arrogance, until it started to cost the money in lawsuits. Too bad we didn't have the mouth-breathing Q-morons to protect us back in the day. I'm sure they'd be super upset about all of it. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - PhilHos - 08-24-2020 I don't think a member of ANY group should support either party just because they're a member of said group. I think you have your beliefs and you should vote for the person who best represents you. If your group happens to agree with you and votes the same, so what? RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - BigPapaKain - 08-24-2020 I think if the church wants to endorse either party or any political stance, they should have their tax exempt status revoked. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - SunsetBengal - 08-24-2020 (08-24-2020, 08:39 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I think if the church wants to endorse either party or any political stance, they should have their tax exempt status revoked. This^ Who the heck are they to tell anyone what to do, let alone how to vote, after hiding and protecting all of the pedophile Clergy for so many years? RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - michaelsean - 08-25-2020 (08-24-2020, 08:39 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I think if the church wants to endorse either party or any political stance, they should have their tax exempt status revoked. They don’t. But while they haven’t, they are well within their rights to say it is a sin to vote for someone who actively supports abortion. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - BrownAssClown - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 03:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: They don’t. But while they haven’t, they are well within their rights to say it is a sin to vote for someone who actively supports abortion. Do you know of anybody that actively supports abortion? I'm not singling you out, but I hear people I know who say things like " If your for abortion, your for killing babies" or you can't "vote for a candidate or a party or individual that supports abortion" I was at a church outing one time, not really an official church function and people started talking politics, didn't bother me , but I mentioned to the group that I have voted for candidates from different parties, but I usually vote for democrats. A lady from the group, looked me straight in the eyes and without missing a beat said, " Your for killing innocent babies then!?!" I said , I'm for women making their own decisions, God gave man "free will", I hope a pregnant woman makes the right choice and has the baby, but ultimately it's her decision. The lady from the group said. "I'll pray for you, your soul needs salvation!" I really think she wanted to get an angry reaction out of me, I just looked at her and said, "Thank You, I could use all the help I could get." Never seen that woman at anymore group outings or even at church after that; but she gave me dagger eyes until the end of that outing. Sorry for the rambling, the point I'm trying to make is, I don't think any American actively supports abortion, but they support a women's right to choose, at least that's the way I see it. BTW, your right that a church are well within their rights to say it's a sin to vote for someone who actively supports abortion, I just don't think those kind of people actually exist. I mean, who goes around and tell women they have to get an abortion or to terminate their pregnancies here in America. I've heard stories from places like China forcing abortions on their women to control their population, but never here. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - GMDino - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 03:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: They don’t. But while they haven’t, they are well within their rights to say it is a sin to vote for someone who actively supports abortion. This isn't direct at you specifically but it stirred up something I often wonder about the Evangelical support for Trump: If the church or a religious group has a right to tell their followers that voting for someone who supports abortion rights is a sin (and that is debatable anyway) why don't they also say voting for someone who had an affair? Or stole? Or blasphemed? Or any of the other myriad of reasons we will suffer for eternity unless we do what that church/religion says we have to? I have almost never seen a church support a Democratic candidate because of the abortion issue but I have also almost never seen them condemn a Republican for any other reason. And as a Roman Catholic I personally do NOT think the church as a "right" to tell me voting one way or the other is a sin. If a candidate is for helping the poor and children and has led a good life but has one view the church disagrees with they are wrong. It would be MORE of a sin (in my eyes) to support the liar and the thief who says he is pro-life in one specific case (abortion) but also is pro war and pro death penalty. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Belsnickel - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 03:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: They don’t. But while they haven’t, they are well within their rights to say it is a sin to vote for someone who actively supports abortion. This is the language I find interesting. I don't know of any politician that actively supports abortion. I know of those that actively support access to abortion, but that is distinctly different. Every single pro-choice individual I know would like to see abortion numbers go down and they support family planning measures being more widely available because those have been proven to reduce the number of abortions, but they think the decision on abortion should be up to the individual. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Dill - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 04:34 AM)BrownAssClown Wrote: Do you know of anybody that actively supports abortion? I'm not singling you out, but I hear people I know who say things like " If your for abortion, your for killing babies" or you can't "vote for a candidate or a party or individual that supports abortion" I was at a church outing one time, not really an official church function and people started talking politics, didn't bother me , but I mentioned to the group that I have voted for candidates from different parties, but I usually vote for democrats. A lady from the group, looked me straight in the eyes and without missing a beat said, " Your for killing innocent babies then!?!" It's not just about the babies. Dems are pro-crime too and pro opioids too. Praying for you BrownAss. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - michaelsean - 08-25-2020 It should be actively supports abortion rights. If the church declares that a sin, that isn't specific to a party or an individual. Obviously it leans heavy one way, but there crossovers. But either way they haven't arrived at that. you may not support a candidate for the sole reason that they advocate abortion rights, but if you vote for a person who also happens to support abortion rights then you are fine. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - michaelsean - 08-25-2020 As an aside, I believe the Church ban on abortion is doctrine, so you are never going to see it changed as Church doctrine is seen to be infallible in cases of faith and morals. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - GMDino - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 11:04 AM)michaelsean Wrote: As an aside, I believe the Church ban on abortion is doctrine, so you are never going to see it changed as Church doctrine is seen to be infallible in cases of faith and morals. Again that would carry a lot more weight if it weren't for all those priests with side chicks who had babies and the ones with side chicks who had abortions. But to your point I read this: Quote:Sanctions[edit][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortion#cite_note-80][/url] RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - michaelsean - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 11:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: Again that would carry a lot more weight if it weren't for all those priests with side chicks who had babies and the ones with side chicks who had abortions. It's irrelevant. If you are a devout Catholic, then this comes from God. Dogma is something you are required to believe, and Dogma says doctrine is infallible. Then you choose whether you want to be a Catholic or not. I certainly don't consider myself one anymore. I mentioned earlier that priests can now remove excommuincation due to abortion. Remember that excommunication is not considered a punishment, but rather a wake up call. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - samhain - 08-25-2020 (08-24-2020, 09:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: This^ Who the heck are they to tell anyone what to do, let alone how to vote, after hiding and protecting all of the pedophile Clergy for so many years? My thoughts exactly. I like the traditions and and most of the official doctrines of the church. It's most of what I know of religion because it's how I was raised. I'd go back if for no other reason but to re-connect with family history. I just can't overlook the other thing. It's way too pervasive and way too horrific. When the diocese of Covington (NKY) released their list of credible abusers a couple of weeks ago, no less than four of them were at my church/school when I was a kid. 4. And several more before and after. What person in their right mind would send their kid anywhere near a place with that kind of track record if religion weren't attached? If you were at a Catholic institution as a child, it's not just possible that you were around predators, it's somewhere between highly likely and certain. RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - Truck_1_0_1_ - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 11:29 AM)michaelsean Wrote: It's irrelevant. If you are a devout Catholic, then this comes from God. Dogma is something you are required to believe, and Dogma says doctrine is infallible. Then you choose whether you want to be a Catholic or not. I certainly don't consider myself one anymore. Yeah; those were all forms of, "control," to keep the population low and dumb, while the governing body of Europe (essentially the Western World for 1700+ years) could maintain their position atop the rest of the world (the Romans). Reading things contextually and living with the knowledge and information that we have in the modern world, we know it to be true that the Earth is hundreds of millions of years old (disproving Adam and Eve). We know it be NOT true that Abraham lived to 300 years old or whatever (as no human can live more than the centenarian mark in the modern world). We know it to be true that Revelations did not happen (it was a depiction of the writer's vision of Judgement Day). Etc., etc. Many people don't realise (especially the, "Christians," of the US) that these were just men who wrote about their experiences/visions/their version of events/etc. and that what is written, is not 100% true or could even be proven to be true; why are their accounts so cherished and held in such high regard, while others' depictions are not? Otherwise, I could write a 2000 page book tomorrow and talk about a new messiah, that trounced aliens and destroyed them by sending nuclear bombs back to their homeworld and reclaim the Earth, thus starting a new world as we know it today! Oh, I see, L. Ron Hubbard already did that... RE: Should Catholic voters support Democrats? - SunsetBengal - 08-25-2020 (08-25-2020, 02:57 PM)samhain Wrote: My thoughts exactly. I like the traditions and and most of the official doctrines of the church. It's most of what I know of religion because it's how I was raised. I'd go back if for no other reason but to re-connect with family history. I just can't overlook the other thing. It's way too pervasive and way too horrific. When the diocese of Covington (NKY) released their list of credible abusers a couple of weeks ago, no less than four of them were at my church/school when I was a kid. 4. And several more before and after. What person in their right mind would send their kid anywhere near a place with that kind of track record if religion weren't attached? If you were at a Catholic institution as a child, it's not just possible that you were around predators, it's somewhere between highly likely and certain. I was raised Catholic, and attended Catholic school for elementary. I personally wasn't a victim of a predatory Priest; However, I found out many years later, that a cousin of my same age was abused as an Altar Boy. Like many of my generation, I wandered from the church as a young man. I tried going back in my late 20s through early 30s, but the more revelations of evidence of abuse and cover ups by the church that came to light, I just finally decided that the hypocrisy was too much for me. |