(10-25-2023, 12:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The global threats to democracy are all intertwined.

(10-25-2023, 10:40 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Then why do Palestinians support Hamas now, even in the US if they don't want them running their military efforts? The people have an option right now, turn on Hamas, work with Israel to get rid of Hamas sparing lives. I don't want anyone to die, but unfortunately Hamas's attack on civilians, on babies was horrid. Is your solution Israel walk away and allow terrorists to win? Hamas has an option, quit sending missiles into Israel, wave the white flag, lay down their weapons and turn in those who killed innocent people.

Please provide proof where a government shutdown in the last 25 years has had a negative impact on the economy? I think you will find all were paid eventually even those who did not work. It is like a paid vacation for many. I knew many at the IRS, they loved it because they knew they would get paid eventually and did not have to work during the shutdown.

(10-25-2023, 11:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: I had seen something about Netanyahu aiding the Hamas growth but didn't know how much weight to put behind it because 1) I don't know enough about it and 2) I've always felt he was no good, so I didn't want personal opinions get in the way.

(10-25-2023, 12:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Fair point and a bummer.  It really rains on the schadenfreude parade when we have to admit that electing people based on their promises to never compromise, never stop fighting everyone, never learn a lesson, and never admit they are wrong has global consequences.


Are they even going to bother having a speaker vote this week?  I assume they'll just go back home with pay until the government crashes and then they'll be home with pay again.

(10-25-2023, 12:18 PM)pally Wrote: Because in their opinion, the Israelis are no better.  They have zero rights and no freedom under Israeli rule.

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(10-25-2023, 12:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think people are disillusioned with the government and thus elect people who are either hostile to it or atypical for the office.  I also can't say I blame them.  This is more recent, but how many struggling families could have their mortgages paid off with the money sent to Ukraine?  How many people who can afford a monthly mortgage payment but can't buy a house for lack of a down payment could have been assisted in purchasing their first home?  How many people with crippling credit card debt could have received significant relief?  How about the victims of the Maui fire?

I'm not saying aiding Ukraine isn't important, but it's not hard to see how a struggling citizenry can look at that kind of cash being shipped overseas and be bitter as hell about it.

(10-25-2023, 12:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think people are disillusioned with the government and thus elect people who are either hostile to it or atypical for the office.  I also can't say I blame them.  This is more recent, but how many struggling families could have their mortgages paid off with the money sent to Ukraine?  How many people who can afford a monthly mortgage payment but can't buy a house for lack of a down payment could have been assisted in purchasing their first home?  How many people with crippling credit card debt could have received significant relief?  How about the victims of the Maui fire?

I'm not saying aiding Ukraine isn't important, but it's not hard to see how a struggling citizenry can look at that kind of cash being shipped overseas and be bitter as hell about it.

(10-25-2023, 12:23 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If what you say is true, the Palestinians agree with Hamas terroristic attacks on Israel. They agree innocent civilians should be killed by unbelievable means. They are Hamas.
Israel has sent many warnings (Hamas never did and executed a hostage and kill civilian campaign during Holy Week) for innocent Palestinians to flee to the south to avoid danger, those who stayed put their families and themselves in danger. They can flee the areas being targeted by Israel. Why don't they?
What warnings have been sent by the terrorists in Hamas to Israel prior to firing rockets? The answer is none, they continue to attack innocent Israel citizens. Why is that OK with you?
You sure spend a lot of time defending Hamas and then questioning others character and moral compass? You should join the squad, it appears your views align. They care more about Palestinians than they do Jewish citizens. They align closer to Iran's death to America point of view than to protect America.

(10-25-2023, 12:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So...upcoming vote on Mike Johnson.  Does anyone know about this guy?  Is he unknown enough to sneak through with enough GOP support?  Is he too MAGA?  Is he too moderate?

(10-25-2023, 12:46 PM)pally Wrote: Name a single instance of me defending HAmas?  Stop lying.

Saying the Palestinians don't see Israel as necessarily a better option does not mean the support Hamas. It means Palestinians don't see their lives improving under Israel and especially its current government.

They want peace, safety but first and foremost a free and independent homeland.

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(10-25-2023, 12:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So Johnson seems pretty MAGA. I expect the GOP moderates to cave in here, honestly. The criticism that democrats helped cause this rings extra hollow after seeing the GOP refuse to even let someone left of MAGA be subject to a floor vote in Emmer.

(10-25-2023, 12:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: He is a Trump Republican. Trump killed the nominee yesterday with one tweet. So, time will tell if the RINO's will support him.

(10-25-2023, 01:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens, here. I could see this going several different ways.

(10-25-2023, 01:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Right, and that's why I point out the GOP's house majority is very nominal.  You have republicans who are more loyal to Trump than their party, or if you insist the ones who aren't loyal to Trump are RINOs, that's fine too...the point is that they are only a majority if you don't look beyond the R by their names.  They aren't unified and they aren't of the same mind/goal.

This guy seems like he's pretty close to Jim Jordan but doesn't have the same reputation, so I wouldn't be surprised if the RINOs/moderates/non-Trump-should-be-king GOPers allow it to happen.

(10-25-2023, 12:23 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If what you say is true, the Palestinians agree with Hamas terroristic attacks on Israel. They agree innocent civilians should be killed by unbelievable means. They are Hamas.
Israel has sent many warnings (Hamas never did and executed a hostage and kill civilian campaign during Holy Week) for innocent Palestinians to flee to the south to avoid danger, those who stayed put their families and themselves in danger. They can flee the areas being targeted by Israel. Why don't they?
What warnings have been sent by the terrorists in Hamas to Israel prior to firing rockets? The answer is none, they continue to attack innocent Israel citizens. Why is that OK with you?
You sure spend a lot of time defending Hamas and then questioning others character and moral compass? You should join the squad, it appears your views align. They care more about Palestinians than they do Jewish citizens. They align closer to Iran's death to America point of view than to protect America.

Quote:Restrictions on Movement

Restrictions on Movement
 
11 November 2017



Restricting movement is one of the main tools that Israel employs to enforce its regime of occupation over the Palestinian population in the Occupied Territories. Israel restricts the movement of Palestinians within the Occupied Territories, between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, into Israel, and abroad. Only Palestinians are restricted in this manner, while settlers and other civilians – Israeli and foreign – are free to travel.

Quote:

Israeli restrictions on Palestinians’ movement impose a life of constant uncertainty, making it difficult to perform everyday tasks or make plans, and frustrates the development of a stable economy.

Palestinians’ freedom of movement in the Occupied Territories lies completely at the mercy of the state’s whims, the instructions given to soldiers at the local (DCO), and the way in which they implement them. This state of affairs forces Palestinians to live in constant uncertainty, making it difficult to perform simple tasks and make plans. A Palestinian leaving home in the morning cannot know whether he or she is going to make it work – on time or at all – or to keep a medical appointment, visit family or catch a movie. She might make it, or she might be delayed at a checkpoint for hours, detained and humiliated by soldiers. 
She may have to turn around and go back the way she came. She may get arrested.

The restrictions on movement and the uncertainty they generate also bear implications for the Palestinian economy and its development potential. In several reports on the issue, the World Bank found that these restrictions are a major factor impeding economic stability and growth in the Occupied Territories. Reasons include delays in the arrival of goods, non-arrival of raw materials, the separation between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and the inability to set schedules and meet them.


The present situation
Israel manages the Occupied Territories as three separate, unrelated areas: the Gaza Strip, which it has held under blockade for more than a decade; the West Bank, where it exercises full military control; and East Jerusalem, which it has annexed to its sovereign territory. Israel allows Palestinians to travel between these areas only if they obtain a special permit, which it rarely issues.

As part of the blockade on the Gaza Strip, Israel prohibits Palestinians from entering and leaving the area except in extremely rare cases, which include urgent, life-threatening medical conditions and a very short list of merchants. Israel limits import into Gaza and almost completely prohibits exports out of it. This policy has driven the Gazan economy to collapse, pushing unemployment there over the 40% mark.

In the West Bank, Israel controls all entry and exit points – including those leading to East Jerusalem, which it has annexed. Israel uses this control not only to block Palestinians from entering sovereign Israeli territory – even if only in transit to and from the Gaza Strip – but also to monitor all travel abroad from the West Bank, often denying passage based solely on its own considerations.

Inside Jerusalem, Israel has installed checkpoints that cut the Palestinian neighborhoods on the other side of the Separation Barrier off from the rest of the city. This forces 140,000 Palestinian Jerusalemites to cross busy, crowded checkpoints in order to enter their own city.

Israel also controls Palestinian travel inside the West Bank. Two major checkpoints split the West Bank in three: The Za’atara checkpoint between Nablus and Ramallah, which is staffed some of the time, and the Container checkpoint east of Abu Dis, which is always staffed. The traffic arteries, together with other checkpoints and roadblocks, direct all Palestinian traffic moving between the north and south of the West Bank into the roads that are controlled by these two checkpoints. The military has also installed iron gates at the entrances to the vast majority of West Bank villages, allowing it to isolate them within minutes and with minimal personnel.


As of January 2017, there are 98 checkpoints in the West Bank:

• 59 permanent checkpoints located deep within the West Bank, 18 of them in Area H2 in the city of Hebron, where Israeli settlement enclaves have been established. Some of these checkpoints are constantly staffed, some only at daytime or for part of the day, and some are hardly ever staffed. Inspections at the checkpoints vary, but are often random.
• 39 staffed checkpoints, which are considered points of entry into Israel although most are located several kilometers into the West Bank. These checkpoints are always staffed, and inspections are rigorous.
• According to 2017 figures provided by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), 2,941 flying checkpoints were counted along West Bank roads (an average of 327 a month) until the end of September. A total of 5,587 flying checkpoints were counted in 2016.  According to OCHA, as of January 2017, there were 476 unstaffed physical obstacles along West Bank roads – including dirt mounds, concrete blocks, and fenced-off segments. Of these, 124 were gates installed at the entrances to villages – 59 of them closed and 65 open most of the time, except when the military decides to close them
  

To View list of checkpoints click here.  

The restrictions on movement within the West Bank have institutionalized the separation between Israeli settlers and Palestinians. The main network of roads was built to serve settlers, on land expropriated from Palestinians. Israel completely prohibits Palestinians from using about 40 kilometers of these roads – including almost eight kilometers of Route 443 and almost seven kilometers within the city of Hebron, near the settlements established there. Another 20 kilometers of these roads are partially off limits to Palestinians.

In addition, Israel has created an alternate network of roads intended for Palestinians only. Referred to as “fabric-of-life roads”, they were also paved on land expropriated from Palestinians and include tunnels and bypass roads. According to OCHA, Israel has paved 49 kilometers of such roads, including 43 tunnels and underpasses. While this network does allow for vehicular travel between the Palestinian “islands” that Israel has created throughout the West Bank, Israel still prevents territorial contiguity between these communities. This road network also allows Israel to easily cut off traffic between different parts of the West Bank.


The permit system
To enforce the movement restrictions, Israel instituted a permit system that requires all Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories to obtain a permit in order to enter Israel, East Jerusalem included, for any purpose whatsoever – including work, medical care and family visits. Palestinians must obtain a permit in order to transit through Israel for travel between the West Bank and Gaza Strip. As part of its blockade policy, Israel refuses to issue such permits to residents of Gaza, with rare exceptions.

In attempting to obtain these permits, Palestinians face an arbitrary, entirely non-transparent bureaucratic system. Applicants have no way of assessing the chances that their applications will be approved or how soon. Many applications are denied without explanation, with no real avenue for appeal. In addition, permits already granted are easily revoked, also without explanation.

Since October 2003, Israel has also been enforced a permit system in the “seam zone” – areas severed from the West Bank by the Separation Barrier, often separating landowners from their land. Under this system, Palestinian farmers must apply for permits to access their own land and renew them repeatedly. 
Restrictions are imposed on anyone who is not a landowner, and on bringing in farming equipment.


Background
Initially, after the occupation began, Palestinians from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip could travel almost entirely freely. Tens of thousands worked in Israel. Palestinians from the West Bank, Gaza and Israel maintained family ties; students from Gaza studied in West Bank universities; and extensive trade took place among Palestinians, no matter where they lived.

In January 1991, during the Gulf War, Israel changed its policy, introducing a demand that any Palestinian wishing to enter Israel or East Jerusalem, including for the purpose of travel between the West Bank and Gaza, must obtain a personal permit from Israel. This policy split the Occupied Territories into three separate areas – the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza – leaving travel between them entirely dependent on Israel’s approval.

The impact of this policy change was not immediately apparent. In the first few months, a great many permits were issued and for relatively long durations. As a rule, most Palestinians were still able to routinely enter Israel or travel between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, Israel gradually reduced the number of permits issued and they became harder and harder to obtain, until, in March 1993, after Palestinians from the Occupied Territories killed nine Israeli civilians and six members of the Israeli security forces, Israel imposed full closure “until further notice”.

To enforce the closure, Israel installed checkpoints along the Green Line (the boundary between Israel’s sovereign territory and the West Bank), between East 
Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, and on the Gaza border, and required Palestinians wishing to cross them to obtain a permit. These permits are canceled every time the military imposes a “complete closure” on the Occupied Territories, such as on Jewish holidays. The military often revokes Israeli entry permits after attacks, too – sometimes for all Palestinians in the West Bank, sometimes for residents of the attacker’s community, and sometimes, only for his or her family members.

Over the course of the second intifada, Israel imposed severe restrictions on Palestinian movement even inside the Occupied Territories. In the West Bank, it installed dozens of checkpoints and hundreds of physical obstacles – such as dirt mounds, concrete blocks and ditches – and also began building the Separation Barrier. Some of these obstacles have been removed and others have become permanent checkpoints, but altogether they formed the most extensive, longest-lasting restrictions on Palestinian movement since the beginning of the occupation, disrupting the daily lives of all residents.

Israel put up checkpoints inside the Gaza Strip as well, dividing it into three separate areas. In 2005, it implemented the Disengagement Plan, withdrawing its permanent military presence from Gaza, which made travel there free again. In June 2007, after Hamas took power, Israel imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip – a policy still in effect today – prohibiting, with rare exceptions, entry and exit.

Quote:Who governs and who controls it?

Hamas, which has clashed repeatedly with the Palestinian leaders in the West Bank who negotiated the Oslo Peace Accords, is[color=var(--article-body-content-strong)] a militant Palestinian nationalist movement currently led by Ismail Haniyeh. It took control of Gaza after it won elections there in 2006. Since then, no elections have been held.[/color]


Despite pleas from the United Nations and human rights groups, Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007 that has had a devastating effect on Palestinian civilians. Israel says the blockade, which gives it control of Gaza's borders and is also enforced by Egypt, is necessary to protect Israeli citizens from Hamas.

The International Committee of the Red Cross considers the blockade illegal and says it violates the Geneva Convention, a charge Israeli officials deny. The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel. 

(10-25-2023, 01:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Are Democrats a cult since they vote together all of the time? It appears they do the same thing you are accusing Trump supporters of doing.

Maybe I am missing something but it appears to me Democrats are more in lock step with Biden and his policies than Republicans have been in the past with Trump policies.

(10-25-2023, 01:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe he gets shot down ala Jordan if policy is all that matters.  Have you heard the same full-throated protests from moderates that Jordan got pre-vote though?  It was clear with Jordan going to vote the GOP was banging their heads against a proverbial wall, not sure I'm hearing that for this guy yet.


I think this guy gets through and Matt Gaetz wins thanks to the GOP and thanks to keeping anyone who wasn't MAGA off the floor vote.  Just my 2 cents.