Why Not?

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Passes? Plural? He dropped one all year.

And if the defensive line got a sack or the defense as a whole got a stop on 3rd down, the refs call defensive holding consistently, or the HC calls a different play on 3rd and 1 without the package he wants, or the front office doesn’t ask Gio to take a pay cut and roll with Perine instead, it might have ended differently.

You’re going to sign one FA safety and draft three more? And a WR3 in the 2nd round? You’re going to spend that much draft capital on a position you don’t think is important?  That’s silly.

Easy killer, these are expressions of speech and you are letting your feelings get in the way.  I have already ignored the previous personal jabs so calm down.

He did drop one pass and it was a crucial one late in the 4th of the SB. How many did Kupp drop late in the 4th?

I never said Boyd was the only one to make mistakes but I try to stay on topic. I will forever be distraught over Spain on the very last play, all he had to do was fall down to his left so AD went inside to Hopkins and he totally whiffed. Zac and Lou shit the bed - Perine over Mixon? No screen passes? Not doubling Kupp after OBJ went down?

I suggested we sign one vet for a one year prove-it deal coming off an injury and draft a stud - I never suggested drafting 3 of them - i just added a couple names to your list of potentials.. I'll not remark on your lack reading comprehension.

I never said WR3 had to be in the 2nd round in this thread but if the value is there Im ok with it if Boyd is gone.  (Im glad you enjoyed my mock draft and offseason suggestions regardless of how unlikely they may be.)

You still cant comprehend cash spent on priority positions vs the talent at the position.  We would love for WR3 to be as talented as a #2 but priority wise it shouldnt be paid highly and with a very talented rookie it wouldnt be $10M but with as much speed and talent as Boyd.  Does that help?  Same talent less money?

Im obviously not doing a good enough job explaining myself...

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:16 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And $14M/yr average would get you a Top 10 CB last season. You just complained about the Bengals CB play. Listed CBs as the second highest priority on defense ahead of safeties. And now you’re proposing over paying  (by your own admission) a FS with Top 10 CB money instead of prioritizing the CBs against your own advice.

Again you are kinda slow, my point was clear, if we are going to continue to have average safeties than FS becomes much more valuable. 

That is basic football sense. Maybe this isnt your sport?  A 12 year old understands: great corners/avg safety or avg corners/great safety


Keep trying though, you may get this football thingy yet...

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 12:53 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Pretty sure everyone acknowledges an elite 3-4 OLB (TJ watt) that can rush the passer as the same as a 4-3 DE. Stop getting caught up on semantics.

As far as bates go, the tag was the best, and most logical, decision. He clearly was the best defensive player (maybe best on the team) in the playoffs. You can’t just bank on letting him walk and using that money “somewhere else”. I understand his struggles in the regular season, but I think kicking the can down the road a year was a great decision.

I proposed using that money specifically on a RG which you’ve been whining about.

You’ve menstruated about how unimportant WR3 is, but inexplicably want to use a high draft pick to fill what you consider is an unimportant position flying in the face of all your logic banking on using that money somewhere else which you just complained about.

Quote:Time will tell, but seriously… you have to be able to understand the point of being able to protect your qb to throw downfield, and then be able to bring pressure to rush the passer. If your arguing otherwise, it’s just for the sake of arguing

But seriously, my very first comment in this thread suggested signing an offensive lineman to protect the QB so he could throw it downfield. And I never argued against being able to rush the passer. Which I have reiterated at least three times for you if not more.

You’re making shit up just to argue.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 12:55 AM)casear2727 Wrote:
Nope I clearly stated that elite players must be considered, and I used Bates as an example as he has had flashes and potential.


"Teams that are annual contenders must prioritize positions cash-wise as to the best chance to win games and to elite players on their teams."  

 "For us FS moves up to counter less than great CBs."

If you dont think the NFL doesnt prioritize positions I advise you to research the top salaries of all players by position. Follow the money it prioritizes it very clearly.

Nice try though, well to be honest I actually expected better from you.

I know the NFL prioritizes some positions over others. Like CBs over FS as you admitted. Yet, you admitted you’re willing to over pay a FS more than his play deserves instead of improving the CBs you claim have struggled after telling me CBs are more important than FSs.

And yet, after telling me CBs are prioritized over FSs, you’re prioritizing a FS over CBs.

Are you high?

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:29 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I proposed using that money specifically on a RG which you’ve been whining about.

You’ve menstruated about how unimportant WR3 is, but inexplicably want to use a high draft pick to fill what you consider is an unimportant position flying in the face of all your logic banking on using that money somewhere else which you just complained about.


But seriously, my very first comment in this thread suggested signing an offensive lineman to protect the QB so he could throw it downfield. And I never argued against being able to rush the passer. Which I have reiterated at least three times for you if not more.

You’re making shit up just to argue.

You proposed using Bates money. I disagreed without a plan in place as it is MUCH easier to replace WR3 than FS with only one SS on the roster.

It doesnt matter the draft pick on WR3 it will be a rookie deal and NOT $10M are you not aware of rookie contracts? Again the priority positions is about cash allocation.  Its ok to have a stud WR3 on a rookie contract, its great actually.

Its not your lack of reading comprehension or your general lack of knowledge that is the issue, you simply cannot allow yourself to discuss a topic without taking it personal and spouting things like "dropping the soap in prison" and "menstruated", its kinda sad.  I hope Im not intimidating you into this defensive posture of feeble putdowns you continue to use to conceal your lack of faith in your own rebuttals?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 01:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Easy killer, these are expressions of speech and you are letting your feelings get in the way.  I have already ignored the previous personal jabs so calm down.

He did drop one pass and it was a crucial one late in the 4th of the SB. How many did Kupp drop late in the 4th?

I never said Boyd was the only one to make mistakes but I try to stay on topic. I will forever be distraught over Spain on the very last play, all he had to do was fall down to his left so AD went inside to Hopkins and he totally whiffed. Zac and Lou shit the bed - Perine over Mixon? No screen passes? Not doubling Kupp after OBJ went down?

I suggested we sign one vet for a one year prove-it deal coming off an injury and draft a stud - I never suggested drafting 3 of them - i just added a couple names to your list of potentials.. I'll not remark on your lack reading comprehension.

I never said WR3 had to be in the 2nd round in this thread but if the value is there Im ok with it if Boyd is gone.  (Im glad you enjoyed my mock draft and offseason suggestions regardless of how unlikely they may be.)

You still cant comprehend cash spent on priority positions vs the talent at the position.  We would love for WR3 to be as talented as a #2 but priority wise it shouldnt be paid highly and with a very talented rookie it wouldnt be $10M but with as much speed and talent as Boyd.  Does that help?  Same talent less money?

Im obviously not doing a good enough job explaining myself...

“That’s silly” is an expression of speech. Its PC.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:37 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I know the NFL prioritizes some positions over others. Like CBs over FS as you admitted. Yet, you admitted you’re willing to over pay a FS more than his play deserves instead of improving the CBs you claim have struggled after telling me CBs are more important than FSs.

And yet, after telling me CBs are prioritized over FSs, you’re prioritizing a FS over CBs.

Are you high?

How hard headed are you?  Yes in the NFL CBs > Safeties, all day every day.  But I was clear that in our (the Bengals) situation if we are sticking with mid tier CBs then the FS increases in value.

I cant fix stupid, this is the 3rd time Ive said this.  Great CBs/Avg Safety or  Avg CBs/Great Safety


I never mentioned anything about improving CBs instead of anything else, I commented on our current situation. Think before you post as you are embarrassing yourself. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 01:25 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Easy killer, these are expressions of speech and you are letting your feelings get in the way.  I have already ignored the previous personal jabs so calm down.

He did drop one pass and it was a crucial one late in the 4th of the SB. How many did Kupp drop late in the 4th?

I never said Boyd was the only one to make mistakes but I try to stay on topic. I will forever be distraught over Spain on the very last play, all he had to do was fall down to his left so AD went inside to Hopkins and he totally whiffed. Zac and Lou shit the bed - Perine over Mixon? No screen passes? Not doubling Kupp after OBJ went down?

I suggested we sign one vet for a one year prove-it deal coming off an injury and draft a stud - I never suggested drafting 3 of them - i just added a couple names to your list of potentials.. I'll not remark on your lack reading comprehension.

I never said WR3 had to be in the 2nd round in this thread but if the value is there Im ok with it if Boyd is gone.  (Im glad you enjoyed my mock draft and offseason suggestions regardless of how unlikely they may be.)

You still cant comprehend cash spent on priority positions vs the talent at the position.  We would love for WR3 to be as talented as a #2 but priority wise it shouldnt be paid highly and with a very talented rookie it wouldnt be $10M but with as much speed and talent as Boyd.  Does that help?  Same talent less money?

Im obviously not doing a good enough job explaining myself...

Literally on page 1 . . .

(03-08-2022, 09:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Bengals play 3 WR sets something like 77% of the time. If Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps is he “just” a third WR? For comparison, Reader played 53% of defensive snaps and Hendrickson play 64%.

Tag and trade Bates and the Bengals save $12M.

In 2021, a top 5 S started at $14M average per year. Top 5 C $10.5M. Top 5 LG $10.8M. Top 5 RG $9M. Top 5 RT $17M.

If it is me and I can get an equivalent quality player at a position of need for less that allows me to apply the savings elsewhere.

In other words, sign a Top 5 RG for less than a Top 5 S and draft a new S for less. Use the savings elsewhere or at least roll it over.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:59 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Literally on page 1 . . .

Again for the 3rd time, it seems you were referencing Bates instead of Boyd of which I disagreed.

Unless you were talking in generalities in the following sentences and not referring to Bates, Im not sure what you want me to see?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 01:29 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Again you are kinda slow, my point was clear, if we are going to continue to have average safeties than FS becomes much more valuable. 

That is basic football sense. Maybe this isnt your sport?  A 12 year old understands: great corners/avg safety or avg corners/great safety


Keep trying though, you may get this football thingy yet...

(03-08-2022, 11:56 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Kinda the point.  Teams that are annual contenders must prioritize positions cash-wise as to the best chance to win games and to elite players on their teams.

Standard Winning Offense: QB, WR1, Oline, WR 2. This is us and the Rams, KC has TE and Slot as their 2 primary receivers they pay.  Rams nor KC pay their RBs.

Standard Winning Defense: DE, CB, DT  (then LB, FS, SS).   For us FS moves up to counter less than great CBs. 

Regardless, the priority positions should receive the maximum cash to the best players possible:
Offense to throw the ball down the field, protect he QB, provide holes for RB. 

For defense, stop the run, rush the passer, defend dangerous receivers.

Pretty simple.

“FS moves up to counter less than great CBs.”

Which position does the NFL prioritize according to you? CB.

So if you’re going to prioritize positions then you fix the less than great CBs.

Why? Because they are a priority over FS.

Great corners. Average safety. Get it? No, you don’t. At all.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 01:54 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: “That’s silly” is an expression of speech. Its PC.

Again no idea what point you are trying to make, i was referring to the plurality issue with my expression. 

Im starting to think you are just a tad wierd.

All I have done is state my opinion and you have attacked them, you have attacked me and thats all good, I have no problem giving it back to you.

But you need to show some common sense in all of this. You have 2-3 takes (at the least) that are just way off base in terms of basic practicality.

[*bfine32*]

[Whatever]

(03-08-2022, 08:14 PM)J24 Wrote: Trade Boyd? Don't get me wrong I like him(and would only trade them for good value) as a player but at the same he seems very replaceable. If we trade Boyd we would save nearly 8 Million in cap space.

Case for trading Boyd

1.) Since the 2018 season  this was his first season without 100 targets and his least amount of yards in a season.

2.) He had a poor post season for us  averaging only 28 yards per a game,  only 7 first downs, and 1 TD. Per a 17 game season 476 yards, 30 first downs,  and 4 TDs. Is that 10 million dollars worth production?

3.) We have two elite  Wrs on the roster in Chase and Higgins. Also neither  have hit their prime so their stock is only going to go up. Its going to be tough for Boyd to get his normal production.

3b.) We have 3 seasons left of Higgins 2 under his rookie contract + a franchise tag. If he is to expensive to re-sign in 4 years Boyd still wouldn't be a great option to replace  him . He would be in his thirties + Tee is an outside WR vs Tyler who is a slot.

4.) I think Stanley  Morgan can replace him and I think the Bengals think that as well.  1.) He was a good College player; in his final two seasons he had over 1, 900 yards and 17 Tds, 2.) He had a similar RAS to Boyd as a prospect,  well respected  in the Lockerroom, tough as nails, and he was playing meaningful  Wr snaps later in the season.   Him + Taylor+ a top 100 draft pick should fill the role.

5) He would have a lot of interest on the trade Market. I could see at the very least getting back a 3rd rd pick for him. I could see the Raiders, Packers, Cowboys,  Patriots, Colts, and Bucs(if they trade Goodwin) as potential suitors.

Morgan is now officially the early front runner for the extremely prestigious Golden Binns award.  He has the chance to go down in infamy as the man who ended the four year run of the reigning and defending, undefeated and undisputed Golden Binns award winner Auden Tate(who will surely get that Mike Williams $ this FA).

But seriously, Morgan has caught only 5 of 14 career targets.  Good blocker and ST's guy, but you're in deep trouble if he's starting.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 02:13 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: “FS moves up to counter less than great CBs.”

Which position does the NFL prioritize according to you?  CB.

So if you’re going to prioritize positions then you fix the less than great CBs.

Why? Because they are a priority over FS.

Great corners. Average safety. Get it? No, you don’t. At all.

Ok, lets just agree that you are tad slow

CBs are valued over Safeties in general.  However, as I stated from the very beginning we must deal with what we have on our team.

We have average CBs and whats considered an upper tier FS and this is ok as that FS can atone for the lack of awesomeness at CB.

Its not rocket science, my 8 yr old gets it.


Let's address something else you are obviously not well versed in... the escrow account.  Ours will blow up after this season and our team is externally cash poor (outside of team revenues) compared to others based on ownership alone.

Cornerbacks being a top 3 valued position requires a large guaranteed money aspect as to top free agents - say a JC Jackson. Signing him could require a potential 40-60M to our already exploding escrow account, thus it isnt as easy as signing a WR3 of which there are dozens and dozens.  And since we have an upper tier FS we are ok with average to above average CBs that wont add a ton to the escrow.  Keep in mind when you can no longer fund the escrow you can no longer sign players.

Stop trying to find me wrong and try to understand what Im saying and then question my opinion.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 01:44 AM)casear2727 Wrote: You proposed using Bates money. I disagreed without a plan in place as it is MUCH easier to replace WR3 than FS with only one SS on the roster.

It doesnt matter the draft pick on WR3 it will be a rookie deal and NOT $10M are you not aware of rookie contracts? Again the priority positions is about cash allocation.  Its ok to have a stud WR3 on a rookie contract, its great actually.

Its not your lack of reading comprehension or your general lack of knowledge that is the issue, you simply cannot allow yourself to discuss a topic without taking it personal and spouting things like "dropping the soap in prison" and "menstruated", its kinda sad.  I hope Im not intimidating you into this defensive posture of feeble putdowns you continue to use to conceal your lack of faith in your own rebuttals?

I proposed not over paying a FS (as you suggested) and using it to improve the offensive line to protect the franchise QB which is the highest priority position on the team. A franchise QB and the offensive line to protect him take priority over one overpaid FS.

At least, according to you. Except when it isn’t.

And if your FS is more important than usual because the CBs suck. Then fix the CBs. Because of priorities.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 01:56 AM)casear2727 Wrote: How hard headed are you?  Yes in the NFL CBs > Safeties, all day every day.  But I was clear that in our (the Bengals) situation if we are sticking with mid tier CBs then the FS increases in value.

I cant fix stupid, this is the 3rd time Ive said this.  Great CBs/Avg Safety or  Avg CBs/Great Safety


I never mentioned anything about improving CBs instead of anything else, I commented on our current situation. Think before you post as you are embarrassing yourself. 

If CBs are more important than FS, don’t stick with mid tier CBs because you’re going to overpay a FS.

Fix the actual problem. The mid tier CBs. Why? Because they’re more important. When the more important position is fixed, then you don’t need to over pay a FS. Then he isn’t as important any more because you fixed the problem that made him more important than usual in the first place.

If CBs are more important, you go with the CBs.

[casear2727]

(03-09-2022, 02:25 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I proposed not over paying a FS (as you suggested) and using it to improve the offensive line to protect the franchise QB which is the highest priority position on the team. A franchise QB and the offensive line to protect him take priority over one overpaid FS.

At least, according to you. Except when it isn’t.

And if your FS is more important than usual because the CBs suck. Then fix the CBs. Because of priorities.

I dont disagree we need the best oline possible, but do we chance the issues that come with your scenario?

The issue is our team structure and its coming issues.

I dont want to overpay Bates anymore than you do, but here are the issues that must be addressed if we let him walk:

- We only have one safety on the roster to fill 2-3 spots (FS1, FS2, SS2?)

- We need a solid vet to step in at FS for cheap, thats doable, I suggest Maye.

- We need to hit a home run on a safety in the draft.

- We need a great free agent CB that wont kill us with guaranteed money or hit a home run with a draft pick.

This is a lot of speculation and hope instead of just signing a Rasul Douglas to an Awuzie type deal and keep Bates on the tag.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 02:09 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Again for the 3rd time, it seems you were referencing Bates instead of Boyd of which I disagreed.

Unless you were talking in generalities in the following sentences and not referring to Bates, Im not sure what you want me to see?

It will take $15M/yr average to sign Bates to a long term contract. He isn’t worth that. You admitted he isn’t worth $14M. If he isn’t worth the long term investment, don’t tag him with the intention of keeping him for one year. Get rid of him this year and spend the franchise money toward another player that will be here over the next three years instead of wasting that money on a player that wont.

If you’re going to over pay a player, do you want to over pay them $10M or $15M? Keeping in mind over paying a player an extra $5M is $5M less to make the other improvements you want to make?

I would rather over pay less. Because that gives me more to make other improvements.

Tag and trade Bates. That saves Bate’ $12.9M franchise tag (or $15M a long term contract would take) instead of the $7.3M getting rid of Boyd would save. Or an additional $5.6M that can be used towards other players.

Specifically, improving the offensive line. Why the offensive line? Because they are this team’s biggest weakness and are responsible for protecting its franchise QB. The highest priority of the team. More important than a WR or a FS. Because without the franchise QB this Super Bowl window is closed.

Because I want to sign veteran free agent offensive lineman, it is no longer a high draft need. Thus the Bengals don’t need to wait for one to develop like Carman whom they still don’t know what they got going into year two and if his back is 100% fine.

But, FS does become a high draft need in Round 1 or 2 to replace Bates who I would try to trade to the Lions or Jets if possible.

Last year there were 36 WRs drafted. Only 4 matched or exceeded Boyd’s production. Only 1 was drafted outside of the Top 10. One WR out of 33 drafted outside of the Top 10 would have match Boyd’s production. He isn’t as easily replaced as you claim. Unless you want to spend a high draft pick on a WR. Which you don’t.

I do want to spend a 1st or a 2nd to replace Bates whom I don’t want to over pay. Because I’d rather have a rookie FS than a rookie Olineman. And I don’t want to draft a WR high, either. Because after getting a FS I’d rather draft a 3T to improve the interior pass rush. Rather than replace a WR that outperformed 97% of the WRs drafted after the Top 10. Because it will be easier to replace Bates in the 1st round during this years draft than replace Boyd with a late round pick.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 02:23 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Ok, lets just agree that you are tad slow

CBs are valued over Safeties in general.  However, as I stated from the very beginning we must deal with what we have on our team.

We have average CBs and whats considered an upper tier FS and this is ok as that FS can atone for the lack of awesomeness at CB.

Its not rocket science, my 8 yr old gets it.


Let's address something else you are obviously not well versed in... the escrow account.  Ours will blow up after this season and our team is externally cash poor (outside of team revenues) compared to others based on ownership alone.

Cornerbacks being a top 3 valued position requires a large guaranteed money aspect as to top free agents - say a JC Jackson. Signing him could require a potential 40-60M to our already exploding escrow account, thus it isnt as easy as signing a WR3 of which there are dozens and dozens.  And since we have an upper tier FS we are ok with average to above average CBs that wont add a ton to the escrow.  Keep in mind when you can no longer fund the escrow you can no longer sign players.

Stop trying to find me wrong and try to understand what Im saying and then question my opinion.

Top 5 IOL cost less than Top 5 S. So what does paying less do to the escrow? It reduces the amount needed to be put into escrow.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2022, 02:37 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont disagree we need the best oline possible, but do we chance the issues that come with your scenario?

The issue is our team structure and its coming issues.

I dont want to overpay Bates anymore than you do, but here are the issues that must be addressed if we let him walk:

Paying a Top 5 IOL is cheaper than paying a Top 5 S thus you need less in escrow.

Quote:- We only have one safety on the roster to fill 2-3 spots (FS1, FS2, SS2?)

Draft Bates’ replacement in round 1 or 2. Draft a S late for depth + 1 cheap FA. Or two cheap FAs for depth.

Quote:- We need a solid vet to step in at FS for cheap, thats doable, I suggest Maye.

Probably affordable if he is ready. Reid from the Texans is a cheaper option who isn’t 29 and coming back from an Achilles rupture in November.

Quote:- We need to hit a home run on a safety in the draft.

And if they draft an Olineman they will also need to hit a home run. They need to hit a home run regardless of position. Do you want a rookie Olineman or a rookie FS? I would say there is more pressure to hit a home run on an Olineman than a FS. And you’re probably waiting a year for them to develop. You want to wait on an Olineman or a FS? I’d rather wait on a FS.

Quote:- We need a great free agent CB that wont kill us with guaranteed money or hit a home run with a draft pick.

You’re not going to find a great CB who is cheap.

Williams from the Rams or Reed from the Seahawks might be brought in as a #2 without breaking the bank.

Quote:This is a lot of speculation and hope instead of just signing a Rasul Douglas to an Awuzie type deal and keep Bates on the tag.

Sure. Over pay Bates. Cut Boyd and hope you draft the one rookie WR outside of the Top 10 who might match his production. Rely on a rookie Olineman to protect Burrow instead of a veteran that doesn’t need to adjust to the NFL. While saving less money for other upgrades.

No hope or speculation there.