Jan 6 Hearings

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 12:19 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: People walk by and cheer them on, many yelling, "I agree, you're doing a great thing!" Just like a sports team... only I never knew sports teams to actively promote hate and anger.

Yeah, watching neo-cons defend or minimize the 1/6 stuff reminds me of Steelers fans trying to wave away the dirtiness of Harrison/Ward/Ben, or if you want to go to the other side it was Bengals fans saying Burfict was only dirty because he played for us, and not a popular team, where he'd be lauded as a hard-nosed HOFer.

So really, this isn't the first time we've seen that a man trusts his affiliation more than his own eyes.  Everything just becomes a commodity simplified and consumed by fanatics, don't it?  Politics, like sports is centered around teams that are color coded, given mascots and names to represent them, and then people who have no say or no effect on things align themselves with them and decided that this affiliation makes them certain things.  Oof.

[Dill]

(06-12-2022, 09:33 PM)bengaloo Wrote: All I know is right now, I'm really glad the Democrat party left me and my old school liberal values behind and I distanced myself from them, because this is a total embarrassment in every way. I would not let a democrat politician clean my toilet at this point. They are the most incompetent group of people this country has ever seen.

I have been feeling the way Elon Musk and Bill Mahr are feeling right now since Obama failed to deliver on anything he ran on. Boy he was a good talker though. Years later, a lot of the old school liberals are walking away from this embarrassment. All I can say is its about time.

JFK democrats unite. Lets make the Democrat party great again.

I think the ACA, the Iran Deal, the Ledbetter Act, repeal of "Don't ask, don't tell," were all "delivered," right?  And he did quite a bit to pull us out of recession and save some sectors of the U.S. auto industry.  And he killed OBL and commuted the sentences of 1200 people imprisoned for violating harsh laws against marijuana use/sale. 

Most of Obama's accomplishments came in the first two years of office, when he could count on the Senate and House. I don't blame him for the difficulty of keeping promises in the face of determined Republican opposition.  He couldn't close Gitmo or join the TPP. But that's not on him.

So it's not clear from your post why the Dem party is charged with "embarrassment" here. What exactly were your values, if accomplishments like the Ledbetter Act or the ACA left you behind? 

[Dill]

(06-14-2022, 09:02 AM)Sled21 Wrote: These sham hearings got trounced in the ratings by a re-run of "Young Sheldon." That should tell everyone what most of America thinks about them.

Sounds like most Americans don't care if a defeated president staged a coup to stay in power.

Or maybe they would if the Dems could get sports celebrities, film stars, and comedians to run the hearings.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-14-2022, 01:43 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like most Americans don't care if a defeated president staged a coup to stay in power.

Or maybe they would if the Dems could get sports celebrities, film stars, and comedians to run the hearings.

Or maybe they just disagree with the severity of the incident?  Or maybe they find the timing interesting for these hearings, as they could be perceived as being released now for purely political reasons?  Or maybe they're more concerned with paying $7 a gallon for gas, having no baby formula or feminine hygiene products all the while paying much more for food?  

There's a wide range of reasons people aren't invested in this that have nothing to do with not caring at all.

[hollodero]

(06-14-2022, 01:43 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like most Americans don't care if a defeated president staged a coup to stay in power.

Or maybe they would if the Dems could get sports celebrities, film stars, and comedians to run the hearings.

Well, in all honesty, these Monday hearings told an already pretty well-known story, with some additional witnesses and details for sure, but there was no real bombshell to be expected (Barr repeatedly using the term BS is not quite that). Yeah folks around Trump knew he lost and that there's nothing to all these conspiracies. Yeah, Trump dismissed them and kept throwing out said conspiracies. We all knew that already.

A summary will do just fine for most people and did just fine for me.

[Dill]

(06-14-2022, 01:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Or maybe they just disagree with the severity of the incident?  Or maybe they find the timing interesting for these hearings, as they could be perceived as being released now for purely political reasons?  Or maybe they're more concerned with paying $7 a gallon for gas, having no baby formula or feminine hygiene products all the while paying much more for food?  

There's a wide range of reasons people aren't invested in this that have nothing to do with not caring at all.

Sure, maybe they think an autogolpe is not especially "severe."  But if so then they don't care much about keeping their democracy, including rule of law, if gas prices, baby formula, and Young Sheldon seem more important than the social contract itself.

The attempted coup was certainly for "purely political reasons," but I don't understand what you mean when you say that an investigation into the hearings could be "purely political,"* regardless of timing. Before buying that, I'd have to think there were no crime worth investigating.

Seems like one of the enabling conditions for the coup attempt was the power of right wing news commentators and politicians to persuade a sufficient mass of people that every Dem move is "just politics" and not motivated at all by preservation of democratic norms/values/standards. 

*Here I understand you to be using the term "political" in the same sense one might use it to describe unnecessary Congressional hearings on Benghazi. That is, motivated not by desire to hold laws and standards in place and politicians accountable, but to accomplish narrowly partisan ends.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-14-2022, 02:20 PM)Dill Wrote: Sure, maybe they think an autogolpe is not especially "severe."  But if so then they don't care much about keeping their democracy, including rule of law, if gas prices, baby formula, and Young Sheldon seem more important than the social contract itself.

The attempted coup was certainly for "purely political reasons," but I don't understand what you mean when you say that an investigation into the hearings could be "purely political,"* regardless of timing. Before buying that, I'd have to think there were no crime worth investigating.

Seems like one of the enabling conditions for the coup attempt was the power of right wing news commentators and politicians to persuade a sufficient mass of people that every Dem move is "just politics" and not motivated at all by preservation of democratic norms/values/standards. 

*Here I understand you to be using the term "political" in the same sense one might use it to describe unnecessary Congressional hearings on Benghazi. That is, motivated not by desire to hold laws and standards in place and politicians accountable, but to accomplish narrowly partisan ends.  

I'm pointing out that there are numerous reasons people could have to not be interested in these hearings.  Hollo raised another one.  Not all of them are, even remotely, due to "not caring about an attempted coup."

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 01:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Or maybe they find the timing interesting for these hearings, as they could be perceived as being released now for purely political reasons?

Ida know...it's June isn't it?  When are they supposed to do this stuff?  Too soon after the election and it's time to heal and do more research.  Too close to the midterms is too political.

But the main thing is no one wants to see this stuff.  Whether you're being told to avoid it or you're just sick of seeing it and knowing nothing will happen because of it, the reason to tune in is low. 

(06-14-2022, 02:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm pointing out that there are numerous reasons people could have to not be interested in these hearings.  Hollo raised another one.  Not all of them are, even remotely, due to "not caring about an attempted coup."

There is no upside to caring about this.  People already "know" Trump is a callous dictator wanna be and other people already "know" it's a liberal witchunt.  I will add that inflation is likely to get worse the longer we flirt with this civil war stuff.


Oh wait, one thing might be relevant.  It's a long shot, but if the committee can establish that Trump knew his rigged election claims were baseless, there could be a case him making $250 million off the "save america" donations could be compromised.  But let's face facts, it ain't happening.  Honestly, if you send your SS check to Trump or a Nigerian prince you deserve to cry.

[hollodero]

(06-14-2022, 02:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Oh wait, one thing might be relevant.  It's a long shot, but if the committee can establish that Trump knew his rigged election claims were baseless, there could be a case him making $250 million off the "save america" donations could be compromised.  But let's face facts, it ain't happening.  Honestly, if you send your SS check to Trump or a Nigerian prince you deserve to cry.

Yeah I wondered about that more than anything. In addition, Trump collected huge amounts of money specifically for his legal expenses to fight the 'rigged' election, but apparently a significant amount of these funds ended up going elsewhere. I feel that reeks illegal, but I wouldn't know of course. Any legal experts that can say more about that?

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 02:51 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I wondered about that more than anything. In addition, Trump collected huge amounts of money specifically for his legal expenses to fight the 'rigged' election, but apparently a significant amount of these funds ended up going elsewhere. I feel that reeks illegal, but I wouldn't know of course. Any legal experts that can say more about that?

As a taxpayer I could get upset that I'm paying into SS and disability and welfare that is ending up in Trump's pocket, but meh...whatcanyado?

[hollodero]

(06-14-2022, 02:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: As a taxpayer I could get upset that I'm paying into SS and disability and welfare that is ending up in Trump's pocket, but meh...whatcanyado?

Yeah I don't know. This wasn't about taxpayer money really though, but about donations for a cause. Hence I'd rather compare it to someone collecting money for an ill child via gofundme and then use the money on a new car instead.

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2022, 03:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I don't know. This wasn't about taxpayer money really though, but about donations for a cause. Hence I'd rather compare it to someone collecting money for an ill child via gofundme and then use the money on a new car instead.

Well, if you give money to Trump you deserve to lose money.  I'm just framing it in a sort of way that tends to outrage people.  Wasting MY tax money?  How dare you!

But again, it's just the way it is.  I'll get in more trouble for stealing a box of Good 'n Plenties than someone will get for stealing 250 million. Trump said he's the law and order president, so meh.

[Dill]

(06-14-2022, 02:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm pointing out that there are numerous reasons people could have to not be interested in these hearings.  Hollo raised another one.  Not all of them are, even remotely, due to "not caring about an attempted coup."

I'm not contesting that there are "numerous reasons" why people would not be interested in hearings regarding the first attempted coup in U.S. history.

I'm just saying that if one 1) values U.S. liberal democracy, and 2) agrees there was an attempt to overthrow it on 1/6, then the numerous reasons you gave are not very good. They do amount to "not caring" in the sense that other issues are given priority. 

One could easily be concerned about the price of gas and the availability of baby formula and feminine hygiene products AND in hearings intended to explain how the attempted coup unfolded and to assign culpability for it--all at the same time. 

[BigPapaKain]

(06-15-2022, 07:08 AM)Dill Wrote: I'm not contesting that there are "numerous reasons" why people would not be interested in hearings regarding the first attempted coup in U.S. history.

I'm just saying that if one 1) values U.S. liberal democracy, and 2) agrees there was an attempt to overthrow it on 1/6, then the numerous reasons you gave are not very good. They do amount to "not caring" in the sense that other issues are given priority. 

One could easily be concerned about the price of gas and the availability of baby formula and feminine hygiene products AND in hearings intended to explain how the attempted coup unfolded and to assign culpability for it--all at the same time. 

I mean I didn't watch it for the same reasons I don't watch any House or Senate vote or court cases - shit is boring.

[*Nately120*]

(06-15-2022, 07:26 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I mean I didn't watch it for the same reasons I don't watch any House or Senate vote or court cases - shit is boring.

Trump promised we'd get tired of winning, but here we are tired of seeing his own allies turn on him. 

[Dill]

(06-14-2022, 02:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, in all honesty, these Monday hearings told an already pretty well-known story, with some additional witnesses and details for sure, but there was no real bombshell to be expected (Barr repeatedly using the term BS is not quite that). Yeah folks around Trump knew he lost and that there's nothing to all these conspiracies. Yeah, Trump dismissed them and kept throwing out said conspiracies. We all knew that already.

A summary will do just fine for most people and did just fine for me.

You're likely more informed than most of my fellow citizens, including me, I'm sorry to say.

I didn't know that Ivanka and Jarrod and virtually all of Trump's pollsters and serious legal advisors agreed the election was fairly lost and told Trump that the night of the election and for a week after that, so I got that from the first hearings.

I think listening to Trump insiders testifying to their tack toward the facts, as Trump tacked away from them, was much more persuasive than a summary by Dem Committee members could ever be. And much harder for Hannity & Co. to spin away. The isolation of Giuliani and Powell as the clown car rather than "team normal"--by Trump's own polling/legal team, no less--was especially effective, as were Barr's own explanations of why specific rumors (e.g., late night delivery of ballots in Michigan) were based on misrepresentation of normal processes. For the audience that needs to hear this, Barr and Trump's own daughter are more effective speakers than Bennie Thompson.

As far as the Monday hearings, I also figured Trump was grifting with his appeals for a "Stop the Steal" defense fund, but I didn't realize that, so far as anyone can tell, there isn't and never was any such fund. Money just went straight to the Trump organization for "expenses" and "charities" run by co-conspirators like Meadows. This looks worse than the now defunct Trump Foundation grift. 
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation

I don't think that "we" knew all this already if some of "us" have been largely listening to right wing media, which have been insistently minimizing the gravity of the insurgency/coup attempt and assuming that belief in "the steal" was the consensus among Trump insiders and Republicans who were actually investigating allegations of fraud. 

Also, Trump defenders have sought not only to minimize the Capitol breach, but also to disconnect it from Trump and the Big Lie which motivated them along with millions of Republican voters who still believe the election was stolen. The hearings have reconnected all these disparate elements to show how the "Big Lie," the Green Bay Sweep, the pressure on Pence to disqualify electors in swing states, and Trump sending a mass of true believers to converge "peacefully" on the Capitol to increase pressure on Pence--as Proud Boys and Oathkeepers already waited in position--all worked together to disrupt the certification of the 2020 election, and in a manner requiring foresight and long term preparation. And they are doing this largely by testimony from the perps and video. 

[hollodero]

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: You're likely more informed than most of my fellow citizens, including me, I'm sorry to say.

I am most certainly not. I am just real gifted in avoiding to show what I don't know.

Eg. nope I did not know what the roles of Ivanka and Jared really were. It's just not that vitally important, imho, to understand Jan 6. Like I'd guess many people I was not breathlessly eager to know what Ivanka had said to Trump about the election, or this or that person at this or that time. Trump very well knew before Jan 6 that all serious people determined that he had lost, that much was clear. Because I know he watches TV, really.

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: I think listening to Trump insiders testifying to their tack toward the facts, as Trump tacked away from them, was much more persuasive than a summary by Dem Committee members could ever be.

Possibly, sure, I did not try to slam the committee. I can just say, when I heard what the Monday hearing would be about, I tuned out as well. Because, as I said, it was no surprise that people told him he actually had lost the election. Additionally, I didn't care all that much about that particular issue (whether he believed he'd lost or not), even though it might be of legal importance. Was he just lying or honestly delusional, well what gives really. And I suppose many people felt that way.

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: And much harder for Hannity & Co. to spin away.

I don't care about that either. It's never hard for them really. They have an audience that is already convinced anyway. Nothing they say has to pass any reality check to please their viewers.

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: As far as the Monday hearings, I also figured Trump was grifting with his appeals for a "Stop the Steal" defense fund, but I didn't realize that, so far as anyone can tell, there isn't and never was any such fund. Money just went straight to the Trump organization for "expenses" and "charities" run by co-conspirators like Meadows. This looks worse than the now defunct Trump Foundation grift. 

Yeah as I said, that was the most interesting part to me, too bad they hardly addressed it. Not that it's much of a surprise either, of course. Trump betraying his donors, can't say I didn't know he had it in him.

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2019/donald-j-trump-pays-court-ordered-2-million-illegally-using-trump-foundation

I don't think that "we" knew all this already if some of "us" have been largely listening to right wing media, which have been insistently minimizing the gravity of the insurgency/coup attempt and assuming that belief in "the steal" was the consensus among Trump insiders and Republicans who were actually investigating allegations of fraud. 

But people behaving in that manner and only believing Tucker/Hannity/etc will continue to do so anyway. They could watch Trump shoot someone and would believe it was actually Hillary in a mask. And Republicans who speak out against Trump in any way are RINOS, bad and incredible people that get primaried out. Maybe they find more enemies in that sense if they should ever come across these hearings (which they will not anyway), maybe Barr is an enemy and RINO to them now too, but that's that. No committee and no additional truth will ever change these minds. I lost all hope on that a long time ago. Reality and facts don't matter in that universe.
Really no reason to watch the hearings in length, worrying about these folks that is.

Overall, yeah "I" knew and that's why "I" left out the hearings and kept to a summary. Doesn't mean I also don't care about democracy. You paint it as though everyone not watching the hearings in length doesn't care about any of that, but that imho is a faulty conclusion.

(06-15-2022, 08:13 AM)Dill Wrote: Also, Trump defenders have sought not only to minimize the Capitol breach, but also to disconnect it from Trump and the Big Lie which motivated them along with millions of Republican voters who still believe the election was stolen. The hearings have reconnected all these disparate elements to show how the "Big Lie," the Green Bay Sweep, the pressure on Pence to disqualify electors in swing states, and Trump sending a mass of true believers to converge "peacefully" on the Capitol to increase pressure on Pence--as Proud Boys and Oathkeepers already waited in position--all worked together to disrupt the certification of the 2020 election, and in a manner requiring foresight and long term preparation. And they are doing this largely by testimony from the perps and video. 

And now? Now Trump defenders will still seek to minimize the Capitol breach, to disconnect it from Trump and the Big Lie and all the other things you said. I know I repeat my stance, but that's just what I can say about it. No hearing will change all that and I for one can grasp no additional fascination from that.

[*Nately120*]

Everyone is lying except Trump...a man we made president because we figured we needed someone who wasn't a nice guy and who didn't play by the rules. Seems legit.

[*michaelsean*]

First of all, Young Sheldon is pretty damn funny. Secondly, as long as all the people who stormed the Capitol face the justice they deserve, I'm good.

[*Nately120*]

(06-15-2022, 11:24 AM)michaelsean Wrote: First of all, Young Sheldon is pretty damn funny.  Secondly, as long as all the people who stormed the Capitol face the justice they deserve, I'm good.

I'm all about seeing the dumbass expendable henchmen getting obliterated, but most movies don't end there. 

Oh man are we being sequel baited?  You win this time, but I'll be back with more idiot fodder, mwa ha ha!