Tens of thousands of Israelis gathered outside the parliament building in Jerusalem on Sunday in the largest anti-government demonstration since the country went to war in October.They urged the government to reach a cease-fire deal to free dozens of hostages held by the Hamas militant group in Gaza and to hold early elections. Israeli society was broadly united immediately after Oct. 7, when Hamas killed some 1,200 people during a cross-border attack and took 250 others hostage. Read more here: https://bit.ly/3IXDOT4
(04-01-2024, 05:04 PM)pally Wrote: The Iranian Consulate in Syria was bombed today. At least 8 are dead. Israel is the prime suspect but we shall have to see how this plays out.
Quote:DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — An Israeli airstrike killed seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen, leading the charity to suspend delivery Tuesday of vital food aid to Gaza, where Israel’s offensive has pushed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to the brink of starvation.
Ships still laden with some 240 tons of aid that arrived just a day earlier turned back from Gaza, according to Cyprus, which has played a key role in trying to establish a sea route to bring food to territory. Israel has only allowed a trickle of aid into devastated northern Gaza, where experts say famine is imminent.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu acknowledged that the country's forces had carried out the “unintended strike ... on innocent people.” He said officials were looking into the strike and would work to ensure it did not happen again.
Footage showed the bodies, several wearing protective gear with the charity’s logo, at a hospital in the central Gaza town of Deir al-Balah. Those killed include three British nationals, an Australian, a Polish national, an American-Canadian dual citizen and a Palestinian, according to hospital records.
Other footage of the aftermath of the strike showed a vehicle with the charity's logo printed across its roof to make it identifiable from the air. The projectile had punched a large hole through the roof.
In the face of a growing humanitarian disaster in Gaza’s north, several countries worked to open a sea route, hoping it would allow more aid to enter. The United States and other countries have also airdropped aid, but humanitarian workers say such efforts on their own are insufficient.
World Central Kitchen, a food charity founded by celebrity chef José Andrés, was key to the new route. Israel has barred UNRWA, the main U.N. agency in Gaza, from making deliveries to the north, and other aid groups say sending truck convoys north has been extremely difficult because of the military’s failure to either grant permission or ensure safe passage.
Andrés — whose charity operates in several countries wracked by wars or natural disasters, including Israel after the Oct. 7 attack that triggered the war — said he was “heartbroken” by the deaths.
“The Israeli government needs to stop this indiscriminate killing. It needs to stop restricting humanitarian aid, stop killing civilians and aid workers, and stop using food as a weapon,” he wrote on X, formerly Twitter.
The charity said the team was traveling in a three-car convoy that included two armored vehicles, and its movements had been coordinated with the Israeli army.
Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, the top military spokesman, said officials have been “reviewing the incident at the highest levels" and that an independent investigation will be launched.
Anera, a Washington-based aid group that has been operating in the Palestinian territories for decades, said that in the wake of the strike it was taking the “unprecedented" step of pausing its own operations in Gaza, where it had been helping to provide around 150,000 meals daily.
“The escalating risks associated with aid delivery leave us with no choice but to halt operations until our staff regain confidence that they can do their work without undue risk,” it said in a statement.
Jamie McGoldrick, the United Nations humanitarian coordinator for the Palestinian territories, said the strike was “not an isolated incident,” noting that around 200 humanitarian workers have been killed since the war broke out in October.
“This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year,” he said.
The war began when Hamas-led militants stormed into southern Israel in a surprise attack on Oct. 7, killing some 1,200 people and taking around 250 hostage. Israel responded with one of the deadliest and most destructive offensives in recent history.
Tensions have soared across the Middle East, and an apparent Israeli strike on Iran's consulate in the Syrian capital, Damascus, on Monday has ratcheted them up even further. Iran and its allies have vowed to respond to the strike, which killed two Iranian generals.
On Monday, three aid ships from the Mediterranean island nation of Cyprus arrived with some 400 tons of food and supplies organized by World Central Kitchen and the United Arab Emirates following a pilot run last month.
Cypriot Foreign Ministry spokesman Theodoros Gotsis said Tuesday that around 100 tons of aid had been unloaded before the charity suspended operations, and that the remaining 240 tons of aid would be taken back to Cyprus.
The United States, which has provided key military support for Israel's offensive, has touted the sea route and plans to build its own floating dock, with construction expected to take several weeks.
The U.S., Britain, Poland and Australia — whose citizens were among those killed, according to the hospital — called for an investigation or an explanation from Israel.
National Security Council spokesperson Adrienne Watson said the U.S. was “heartbroken and deeply troubled” by the strike, while British Foreign Secretary David Cameron called it “deeply distressing.”
“It is essential that humanitarian workers are protected and able to carry out their work,” he wrote on X, saying his country was working to verify reports of the deaths of U.K. nationals.
Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese confirmed that Zomi Frankcom, 44, of Melbourne, was killed. Damian Soból was also among the victims, according to a post on Facebook by Wojciech Bakun, the mayor of the southeastern Polish city of Przemysl, where the aid worker was from.
More than 32,900 Palestinians have been killed in the war, around two-thirds of them women and children, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its count. Israel blames the civilian toll on Palestinian militants because they fight in dense residential areas but the army rarely comments on individual strikes.
Two other apparent Israeli strikes late Monday killed at least 16 Palestinians, including five children, in Rafah, where Israel has vowed to expand its ground operation despite the presence of some 1.4 million Palestinians, most of whom have sought refuge from fighting elsewhere.
One of the strikes hit a family home, killing 10 people, including five children, according to hospital records. Another hit a gathering near a mosque, killing at least six people, including three children.
Aid groups have repeatedly called for a humanitarian cease-fire, saying it's the only way to reach people in need. The United States, Qatar and Egypt have spent months trying to broker such a pause and a hostage release, but the indirect talks between Israel and Hamas remain bogged down.
Hamas is believed to be holding some 100 hostages and the remains of 30 others after freeing most of the rest during a cease-fire in November in exchange for the release of Palestinians imprisoned by Israel.
So, in light of the discussion in another thread I decided to review this entire thread to see if I was treating certain posters unfairly. Unless I missed it, in thirteen pages of posts and responses there is not a single post from a left leaning poster in this thread that isn't about/blaming the IDF, Israel, AIPAC or Netanyahu. Not a single post, not one, in thirteen pages about/blaming Hamas, Iran, Qatar or the other enablers of Hamas's terrorism from those posters.
Not one.
You do, rarely, get a one sentence blurb or two acknowledging that Hamas is "bad", but no posts about them. If you knew nothing about this conflict other than what you read here you'd think Israel started the whole thing. I almost have to give Hamas credit, their strategy worked like a charm.
There is strong evidence one of the UN groups UNRWA participated in the Oct. 7th attacks. Some want to think groups under the guise of humanitarian aid are friendly to Israel. They are not.
Getting back to the war, the Biden administration due to political pressure has been straddling the fence the past few months. Harris said to oust the prime minister.
The US is now calling for a cease fire aligning with the UN by not using their power of veto. Biden goes from Israel has every right to defend itself, to pause the war which would allow Hamas to regroup.
Hamas has lost its right to exist. Hamas has never stopped firing into Israel, and I remind everyone, still has hostages including Americans. Why has Biden ignored the American hostages in Gaza?
Is the humanitarian going 100% to Palestinas or is going to Hamas fighters?
Israel needs to get rid of Hamas, otherwise Israeli citizens would never have peace.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(04-02-2024, 11:41 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, you're alleging that the IDF knew it was an aid convoy and deliberately attacked it anyway?
I'm not alleging anything. I'm saying it's not the first time civilians were killed and the answer was oops, we'll investigate ourselves. No "we thought there was Hamas hiding in the group" just...we'll look in to it eventually. Not even an attempt at cover.
How many times until it stops being accidental given what we know about Netanyahu?
Doesn't mean it WAS intentional. It means how many unintentional before we start to see it as a trend?
I see Luvnit has immediately switched onto the people providing aid are not "friends" of Israel so maybe that's the thinking. Or maybe it's just the next excuse?
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2024, 11:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm not alleging anything. I'm saying it's not the first time civilians were killed and the answer was oops, we'll investigate ourselves. No "we thought there was Hamas hiding in the group" just...we'll look in to it eventually. Not even an attempt at cover.
How many times until it stops being accidental given what we know about Netanyahu?
Doesn't mean it WAS intentional. It means how many unintentional before we start to see it as a trend?
I see Luvnit has immediately switched onto the people providing aid are not "friends" of Israel so maybe that's the thinking. Or maybe it's just the next excuse?
It's either one or the other. It's either they knew it was a civilian convoy and fired on them anyway, or they did not. You said they've lost the "benefit of the doubt" which would seem to mean you think it was intentional. That being the case, why don't you just say that?
As for a "trend" you're talking about a completely urban warfare scenario. If you could pick a conflict terrain that most lends itself to blue on blue incidents it would be urban or jungle. So, your options are that it was a mistake, or that the IDF knew who they were, decided they haven't been getting enough bad press in the West already, and decided to fire upon them to give all the "liberal" protestors yet another bloody shirt to waive.
Your wording seem to indicate you're leaning heavily towards the latter. Also, what Luvnit posts has nothing to do with what I'm posting.
Quote:...Israeli military hit the convoy three times with a drone, as the aid workers tried to dive for cover between the vehicles. The security source said after the first missile hit, the passengers tried to move to another vehicle - and were attacked a second and a third time.
Oopsie.
Oopsie again.
Oopsie one more time.
But hey, s**t happens right? Not like it's the first time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(04-02-2024, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's either one or the other. It's either they knew it was a civilian convoy and fired on them anyway, or they did not. You said they've lost the "benefit of the doubt" which would seem to mean you think it was intentional. That being the case, why don't you just say that?
As for a "trend" you're talking about a completely urban warfare scenario. If you could pick a conflict terrain that most lends itself to blue on blue incidents it would be urban or jungle. So, your options are that it was a mistake, or that the IDF knew who they were, decided they haven't been getting enough bad press in the West already, and decided to fire upon them to give all the "liberal" protestors yet another bloody shirt to waive.
Your wording seem to indicate you're leaning heavily towards the latter. Also, what Luvnit posts has nothing to do with what I'm posting.
Again you misquote someone to make your point.
I specifically said :"..it is really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt...again."
When I have proof that it was intentional I will say so. When it looks suspicious/bad...again...I will say so.
I'm not there bombing anyone, I'm observing what happens and what the responses are. I never said Israel couldn't defend itself. I said their mission of "completely getting rid of Hamas" is foolish and will never happen unless they plan on killing everyone in the strip. Has Hamas struck back since October? Maybe the constant bombing is working and the civilian lives lost will be worth it?
War is worse than hell, and even the good guys can look bad and do bad things.
Israel is getting bad press everywhere...including IN Israel. Is everyone wrong but Netanyahu and you? Or is Netanyahu pushing for more and more attacks until he is satisfied personally?
What Luvnit said ties into someone providing the benefit of the doubt by saying even the aid workers might be anti-Israel. You never know, so if they died it may have been a good thing?
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2024, 12:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: Again you misquote someone to make your point.
I specifically said :"..it is really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt...again."
So, I did correctly quote you.
Quote:When I have proof that it was intentional I will say so. When it looks suspicious/bad...again...I will say so.
So, outside of an outright admission that it was deliberate and they knew who it was you'll simply restrict yourself to heavily implying it was deliberate. Got it.
Quote:I'm not there bombing anyone, I'm observing what happens and what the responses are. I never said Israel couldn't defend itself. I said their mission of "completely getting rid of Hamas" is foolish and will never happen unless they plan on killing everyone in the strip. Has Hamas struck back since October? Maybe the constant bombing is working and the civilian lives lost will be worth it?
Not really sure what you mean by being "worth it". I do agree with you that it is extremely unfortunate and sad that Hamas has set up a conflict intended to maximize civilian casualties.
Quote:War is worse than hell, and even the good guys can look bad and do bad things.
Indeed. This is why it is so important to draw clear distinctions when they can be drawn. For example, say one side deliberately, and admittedly (which you stated is important to you) targeted and slaughtered civilians. Not only that but then broadcast footage of them doing so gleefully. They also engaged in gang rape and then deliberately kidnapped more civilians, including infants and toddlers. Said side then deliberately surrounds themselves with their own civilian populace in order to ensure any strike against them will cause civilian casualties. None of this is disputable. Is it not important to not only recognize this, but to view the results of the following conflict through the lens of that knowledge?
Quote:Israel is getting bad press everywhere...including IN Israel. Is everyone wrong but Netanyahu and you? Or is Netanyahu pushing for more and more attacks until he is satisfied personally?
They are indeed, which is why I had to begrudgingly give Hamas credit. Their plan worked better than I think they even thought possible.
Quote:What Luvnit said ties into someone providing the benefit of the doubt by saying even the aid workers might be anti-Israel. You never know, so if they died it may have been a good thing?
When I make that argument I'll be happy to address that type of question directed at me.
(04-02-2024, 12:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, I did correctly quote you.
So, outside of an outright admission that it was deliberate and they knew who it was you'll simply restrict yourself to heavily implying it was deliberate. Got it.
Not really sure what you mean by being "worth it". I do agree with you that it is extremely unfortunate and sad that Hamas has set up a conflict intended to maximize civilian casualties.
Indeed. This is why it is so important to draw clear distinctions when they can be drawn. For example, say one side deliberately, and admittedly (which you stated is important to you) targeted and slaughtered civilians. Not only that but then broadcast footage of them doing so gleefully. They also engaged in gang rape and then deliberately kidnapped more civilians, including infants and toddlers. Said side then deliberately surrounds themselves with their own civilian populace in order to ensure any strike against them will cause civilian casualties. None of this is disputable. Is it not important to not only recognize this, but to view the results of the following conflict through the lens of that knowledge?
They are indeed, which is why I had to begrudgingly give Hamas credit. Their plan worked better than I think they even thought possible.
When I make that argument I'll be happy to address that type of question directed at me.
Yeah you're right back to saying things I never said.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(04-02-2024, 11:41 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, you're alleging that the IDF knew it was an aid convoy and deliberately attacked it anyway?
So, interestingly, I was listening to one of my news podcasts while out for a walk and they made the claim that the vehicles in the convoy that was attacked were clearly marked with the group's logo, were leaving their warehouse, and their route had been reviewed and approved by the Israeli military prior to their departure. I am not saying it was intentional, but if it wasn't this was a HUGE **** up on their part if those claims are true.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(04-01-2024, 05:44 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Stop sending weapons to Hamas.
I don't think you fully perceive the gravity of this. Embassies are sovereign soil of their country and are not military targets. It's one thing to target military facilities, but an attack like that could be considered a declaration of war against Iran itself.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(04-02-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, in light of the discussion in another thread I decided to review this entire thread to see if I was treating certain posters unfairly. Unless I missed it, in thirteen pages of posts and responses there is not a single post from a left leaning poster in this thread that isn't about/blaming the IDF, Israel, AIPAC or Netanyahu. Not a single post, not one, in thirteen pages about/blaming Hamas, Iran, Qatar or the other enablers of Hamas's terrorism from those posters.
Not one.
You do, rarely, get a one sentence blurb or two acknowledging that Hamas is "bad", but no posts about them. If you knew nothing about this conflict other than what you read here you'd think Israel started the whole thing. I almost have to give Hamas credit, their strategy worked like a charm.
To be fair, I consider the allied forces to be responsible for all of this, because they created this situation and then just said "you all work it out." This was an inevitability thanks to colonialist asshattery.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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