Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(05-23-2024, 06:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, calling them pariahs seems to go a bit far. Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was a guest at Raisi's funeral.

Some might view that as a pariah visiting a pariah state. 

But you point is well taken. I don't mean to equate Hamas with ISIS. 

Their representatives are sitting at tables with government representatives in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, and with Hezbollah. 

I just mean to say that none of these parties is happy to be dealing with them, and their diplomatic range is very limited,

but they're necessary to resolve the current war and, further down the road,

to construct a future for Gaza and perhaps a Palestinian state. 

[hollodero]

(05-23-2024, 08:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Some might view that as a pariah visiting a pariah state. 

But you point is well taken. I don't mean to equate Hamas with ISIS. 

Their representatives are sitting at tables with government representatives in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, and with Hezbollah. 

I just mean to say that none of these parties is happy to be dealing with them, and their diplomatic range is very limited,

but they're necessary to resolve the current war and, further down the road,

to construct a future for Gaza and perhaps a Palestinian state. 

Well, how do you know all that? You paint it as quite an undisputable fact that barring Iran everyone is so unhappy and disgusted with Hamas and that they have no sway at all. Is that really a fact.
Eg. Iraq paints the Hamas attacks as a natural consequence of the Zionist occupation authority's oppression. The official Syria 'raises its head high in honor of the martyrs of the Palestinian revolution and the heroes who planned and achieved the Al-Aqsa Flood operation'. That aren't quite the words to describe the deeds of a pariah. At the very least it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Dill]

(05-23-2024, 08:34 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, how do you know all that? You paint it as quite an undisputable fact that barring Iran everyone is so unhappy and disgusted with Hamas and that they have no sway at all. Is that really a fact.
Eg. Iraq paints the Hamas attacks as a natural consequence of the Zionist occupation authority's oppression. The official Syria 'raises its head high in honor of the martyrs of the Palestinian revolution and the heroes who planned and achieved the Al-Aqsa Flood operation'. That aren't quite the words to describe the deeds of a pariah. At the very least it's a bit more complicated than that.

Rather than argue over definitions, I readily conceded that calling Hamas a "pariah" was going too far, They are not ISIS. I also now reconsider that one Muslim nation may NOT wish to be rid of them.  Perhaps you are actually wondering whether Muslim nations in the ME are "unhappy and disgusted with Hamas" at all, or at least to what degree? The following points in response, then. 

First: my stating that Hamas is "necessary to resolve the current war and, further down the road, to construct a future for Gaza and perhaps a Palestinian state,"
with representatives sitting at gov. tables in Egypt, Qatar etc., is not exactly a claim that they have "no sway at all," is it? So no need to defend a claim I don't make.

Second: You ask how I "know all that"? What I "know" comes from polling friends in Jordan and Egypt and from following ME polls, news sources, and websites, which I've been doing for decades and not just when a single event gets the Arab-Israeli conflict into US news. (E.g., the Washington Institute is a useful source for polling on Arab populations' political views. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/washington-institute-2023-polling-data-and-analysis.) And then, upon absorbing info from these diverse sources, placing it in what historical/political context I can muster, I conduct my own media/political analyses of what's currently happening by comparative method, not "trusting" sources.

Third: Remember I am speaking of governments. Populations vary quite a bit in their Hamas support, high in Jordan and very low in Egypt and the Gulf states, even accounting for a post Oct 7 spike in popularity. Governments can be embarrassed by Hamas' erratic behavior at the negotiating table, and by the shifts and splits Hamas creates among their own populace, and the resulting stress on governance and diplomatic initiatives.*  

E.g., Those viewing the Hamas attacks as "a natural consequence of the Zionist occupation authority's oppression" are probably a planetary majority at the moment, certainly in the developing world (except India).  But notice that when the Iraqi Prime Minister put out a statement in Arabic to that effect, after Oct. 7, he affirmed support for the PALESTINIAN cause, not Hamas. There was the perfect time to support Hamas, if it were worthy of that support. But the attack on Oct. 7, placed the gov. between Iraq and a hard place, so to speak, given it's desire for normal relations with the US and regional stability, and its difficulty managing disruptive Shia militia who DO openly support Hamas (one even invited a Hamas rep.to Iraq).  
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/iraq-crossroads-hamas-gaza-shia-militias/

Egypt's difficulty with Hamas is just common knowledge in the ME and among ME watchers. https://www.usip.org/publications/2024/01/six-dilemmas-facing-egypt. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/egypt-israel-war-hamas-sisi/. Hamas support was at 4% a year ago.

You already know the Syrian gov. is Shia, and along with Iran and Hezbollah, part of the "Axis of Resistance" to Israel--a stance which, so far as I can tell, would be opposed by most Syrians, had they a say in the matter. Perhaps that, plus the disruption on the ground and conflict with the US following Oct. 7, account for the gov.'s reticence to go beyond rhetorical support for Hamas. https://www.stimson.org/2024/why-syria-is-so-silent-about-hamas/.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/syrias-al-assad-and-supporting-hamas-all-for-political-gain-or-optics

Hezbollah, Iran and Syria all appear surprised by Hamas' attack on Israel, which risked imposing a war on them they don't want, and increased factionalism amongst their constituencies. Their alliance commits them to voicing public support for Hamas, but they are doing as little as they can to back the rhetoric. So I am not taking their rhetoric as indicative of much more than damage control. Right now many in the Axis don't believe the reports of rape and violence against civilians, but as that changes, embarrassment rises. These horror stories so directly contradicted traditional warrior codes against harming civilians and rape. 

I could go into greater regional detail. The UAE (speaking of governments) hated Hamas long before the current war. At least a third of Saudis wanted to continue normalization with Israel even after Oct. 7. That's an indication of how the war has disrupted economic hopes of millions of Saudis, who support the Palestinian cause--but not Hamas. 

Finally: Perhaps helpful to add that I, like most in the ME, do not conflate Hamas and the Palestinians' cause, and so do not immediately interpret support for that cause as support for Hamas. I also recognize the considerable disjunct between rhetoric and action characteristic of some ME players, and take that as the starting point of inquiry rather than conclusive (and opportunistic) evidence of intent, as is frequently done by US News commentators from Fox's Hannity to MSNBC's Joe Scarborough. I don't always already "know" what Arabs/Muslims are like, bypassing contextual analysis to force self-confirming stereotypes onto every conflict. 

*It might require a separate post, but I could present recent evidence that while most Iranians support the PALESTINIAN cause, it's quite possible the majority are against their government's waste of resources on Hamas, whom they DO NOT support. This is one angle from which Hamas actions can further trouble the Iranian government, forced to continue endorsing Hamas for an agenda not supported by Iranians in general.

[Arturo Bandini]

Hell in Rafah tonight.

Beware, the images are atrocious except for people taking pleasure to see kids burning depending on their nationality.

[GMDino]

(05-26-2024, 05:42 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Hell in Rafah tonight.

Beware, the images are atrocious except for people taking pleasure to see kids burning depending on their nationality.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/more-aid-trucks-expected-roll-into-gaza-2024-05-26/

Quote:Dozens killed and wounded in Rafah, Hamas fires missiles at Tel Aviv for first time in months
By Nidal Al-Mughrabi
May 26, 20245:07 PM EDTUpdated 4 min ago




Tel Aviv hit by Hamas rockets for first time in months

• Summary
  

• Sirens sound in Tel Aviv for first time in 4 months
• Israeli military says projectiles fired from Rafah area
• Hamas says attack launched in response to killing of civilians
  

CAIRO, May 26 (Reuters) - Israeli air strikes killed at least 30 Palestinians and wounded dozens in an area in the southern Gaza Strip city of Rafah designated for the displaced, Palestinian health and civil emergency service officials said.

The strike took place in Tel Al-Sultan neighborhood in western Rafah, where thousands of people were taking shelter after many fled the eastern areas of the city where Israeli forces began a ground offensive over two weeks ago.

A Palestinian health official told Reuters dozens of Palestinians were killed and wounded while Ismail Al-Thawabta, the director of the Hamas-run Gaza government media office, put the number of deaths at 30.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said its field hospital in Rafah was receiving an influx of casualties, and that other hospitals also were taking in a large number of patients.

There was no immediate comment from Israel. The final death toll was unclear as many wounded were in critical condition, medics said.

Senior Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri described the attack in Rafah as a "massacre", holding the United States responsible for aiding Israel with weapons and money.

"The air strikes burnt the tents, the tents are melting and the people's bodies are also melting," said one of the residents who arrived at the Kuwaiti hospital in Rafah.
Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military said eight projectiles were identified crossing from the area of Rafah, the southern tip of the Gaza Strip where Israel kept up operations despite a ruling by the top U.N. court on Friday ordering it to stop attacking the city.

A number of the projectiles were intercepted, it said. There were no reports of casualties.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was convening his war cabinet later on Sunday to discuss continued operations in Rafah. Israel argues that the U.N. court's ruling allows room for some military action there.

In a statement on its Telegram channel, the Hamas al-Qassam Brigades said the rockets were launched in response to "Zionist massacres against civilians".

Rafah is located about 100 km (60 miles) south of Tel Aviv.

Israel says it wants to root out Hamas fighters holed up in Rafah and rescue hostages it says are being held in the area, but its assault has worsened the plight of civilians and caused an international outcry.

On Sunday, Israeli strikes killed at least five Palestinians in Rafah, according to local medical services. The Gaza health ministry identified the dead as civilians.
Israeli tanks have probed around the edges of Rafah, near the crossing point from Gaza into Egypt, and have entered some of its eastern districts, residents say, but have not yet entered the city in force since the start of operations in the city earlier this month.

Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz said the rockets fired from Rafah "prove that the (Israel Defense Forces) must operate in every place Hamas still operates from".

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant held an operational assessment in Rafah where he was briefed on "troops’ operations above and below the ground, as well as the deepening of operations in additional areas with the aim of dismantling Hamas battalions", his office said in a statement.

Itamar Ben Gvir, a hardline public security minister who is not part of Israel's war cabinet, urged the army to hit Rafah harder. "Rafah with full force," he posted on X.

Nearly 36,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's offensive, Gaza's health ministry says. Israel launched the operation after Hamas-led militants attacked southern Israeli communities on Oct. 7, killing around 1,200 people and seizing more than 250 hostages, according to Israeli tallies.
















Item 1 of 7 Rafah, May 26, 2024. REUTERS/Reuters TV
[1/7]Rafah, May 26, 2024. REUTERS/Reuters TV Purchase Licensing Rights, opens new tab

Fighting also continued in the northern Gaza area of Jabaliya, the scene of intense combat earlier in the war. During one raid, the military said it found a weapons storage site with dozens of rocket parts and weapons at a school.

It denied Hamas statements that Palestinian fighters had abducted an Israeli soldier.

Hamas media said an Israeli airstrike on a house in a neighborhood near Jabaliya killed 10 people and wounded others.

TRUCE TALKS
Efforts to agree a halt to the fighting and return more than 120 hostages have been blocked for weeks but there were some signs of movement this weekend following meetings between Israeli and U.S. intelligence officials and Qatar's prime minister.

An official with knowledge of the matter said a decision had been taken to resume the talks this week based on new proposals from Egyptian and Qatari mediators, and with "active U.S. involvement."

However, a Hamas official played down the report, telling Reuters: "It is not true."

Netanyahu's war cabinet would discuss the new proposals, his office said.

A second Hamas official, Izzat El-Reshiq, said the group had not received anything from the mediators on new dates for resuming talks as had been reported by Israeli media.

Reshiq restated Hamas's demands, which include: "Ending the aggression completely and permanently, in all of Gaza Strip, not only Rafah".

While Israel is seeking the return of hostages, Netanyahu has repeatedly said the war will not end until Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, is eliminated.

AID TRUCKS ENTER GAZA
Israel has faced calls to get more aid into Gaza after more than seven months of a war that has caused widespread destruction and hunger in the enclave.
Khaled Zayed of the Egyptian Red Crescent told Reuters 200 trucks of aid, including four fuel trucks, were expected to enter Gaza on Sunday through Kerem Shalom.

It follows an agreement between U.S. President Joe Biden and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi on Friday to temporarily send aid via the Kerem Shalom crossing, bypassing the Rafah crossing that has been blocked for weeks.

Egypt's state-affiliated Al Qahera News TV shared a video on social media platform X, showing what it said were aid trucks as they entered Kerem Shalom, which before the conflict was the main commercial crossing station between Israel, Egypt and Gaza.

The Rafah crossing has been shut for almost three weeks, since Israel took control of the Palestinian side of the crossing as it stepped up its offensive.
Egypt has been increasingly alarmed at the prospect of large numbers of Palestinians entering its territory from Gaza and has refused to open its side of the Rafah crossing.

Israel has said it is not restricting aid flows and has opened up new crossing points in the north as well as cooperating with the United States, which has built a temporary floating pier for aid deliveries.

Coming soon: Get the latest news and expert analysis about the state of the global economy with Reuters Econ World. Sign up here.
Additional reporting by James Mackenzie and Dan Williams in Jerusalem and Yusri Mohamed Writing by Nidal al-Mughrabi and Tom Perry Editing by Christina Fincher, Frances Kerry and Chizu Nomiyama

[BoomerFan]

I imagine at some point there will be a peace again though it is far off still. And then later on some extremist organization will attack Israel again.

Whether they were able to vote for them or not, Palestinians need to realize that Hamas or similar extremist organizations **are** their enemy. If they cannot come to that conclusion, they will continue to lose...everything.

[Dill]

(06-01-2024, 04:42 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I imagine at some point there will be a peace again though it is far off still. And then later on some extremist organization will attack Israel again.

Whether they were able to vote for them or not, Palestinians need to realize that Hamas or similar extremist organizations **are** their enemy. If they cannot come to that conclusion, they will continue to lose...everything.

You realize they were losing "everything" long before Hamas, right? 

Who was their enemy then? 

[Dill]

Israel Threatened, Spied on ICC Chief Prosecutor: Report
Fatou Bensouda reportedly feared for her safety amid intimidation campaign
https://www.newser.com/story/350950/israel-threatened-spied-on-icc-chief-prosecutor-report.html

Israel's foreign intelligence agency led a nearly decade-long covert "war" against the International Criminal Court, which included threatening the chief prosecutor in a failed effort to keep her from investigating alleged war crimes in Palestinian territories, according to a joint investigation by the Guardian, +972 Magazine, and the Local Call. Yossi Cohen, the former head of the Mossad, allegedly tried for years to intimidate Fatou Bensouda, who launched a preliminary investigation into alleged Israeli crimes in 2015, before opening an official investigation in 2021. That investigation was continued by Bensouda's successor, Karim Khan, and culminated this week in an arrest warrant for Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu. In announcing the developments, Khan warned he would not hesitate to prosecute "attempts to impede, intimidate or improperly influence" ICC officials.

Khan's office said it faced "several forms of threats and communications that could be viewed as attempts to unduly influence its activities." It's unclear if those are related to Bensouda. According to the Guardian, Cohen threatened the prosecutor and even obtained transcripts of secret recordings of her husband in an effort to influence or discredit her. "You should help us and let us take care of you. You don't want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family," Cohen allegedly told her at one point. The Mossad also allegedly listened in on Bensouda's private exchanges with Palestinian officials and ultimately left her fearing for her safety, reports +972. It suggests some 60 people linked to the probe were under Israeli surveillance.

The influence campaign didn't work. Bensouda briefed senior ICC officials about Cohen's attempts to pressure her, the Guardian reports. Legal experts say those attempts could amount to new offenses. Article 70 of the Rome Statute of the ICC states the court has jurisdiction over offenses against the administration of justice, including "impeding, intimidating or corruptly influencing an official of the Court for the purpose of forcing or persuading the official not to perform, or to perform improperly, his or her duties." One of the Guardian's sources says Cohen was serving as Netanyahu's "unofficial messenger." "He was a loyal and powerful ally of the prime minister at the time," the Guardian notes. In a statement, a rep for Netanyahu's office describes the allegations as "false and unfounded" and "meant to hurt the state of Israel."

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-02-2024, 10:10 PM)Dill Wrote: You realize they were losing "everything" long before Hamas, right? 

Who was their enemy then? 

Themselves.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Interesting development over the weekend.  IDF forces staged a raid and freed four hostages.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-rescue-hamas-gaza-biden-proposal-0faafb8a1b0e4f0050dd20efc81e937d

IDF forces infiltrated initially dressed as civilians and using civilian vehicles.  Hamas claims 274 civilians were killed during the operation.
Some interesting things I have heard but I have yet to see confirmed.  Apparently US intelligence enabled this raid.  Also, one of the hostages was being held captive in the home of an Al Jazeera journalist, with he and his father being reported as two of the casualties.

https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/gaza-journalist-held-3-hostages-in-his-home-with-his-family-israeli-military-says/

Both are rather important pieces of information if true.  

[Luvnit2]

(06-10-2024, 11:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Interesting development over the weekend.  IDF forces staged a raid and freed four hostages.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hostages-rescue-hamas-gaza-biden-proposal-0faafb8a1b0e4f0050dd20efc81e937d

IDF forces infiltrated initially dressed as civilians and using civilian vehicles.  Hamas claims 274 civilians were killed during the operation.
Some interesting things I have heard but I have yet to see confirmed.  Apparently US intelligence enabled this raid.  Also, one of the hostages was being held captive in the home of an Al Jazeera journalist, with he and his father being reported as two of the casualties.

https://nypost.com/2024/06/09/world-news/gaza-journalist-held-3-hostages-in-his-home-with-his-family-israeli-military-says/

Both are rather important pieces of information if true.  

It would help Hamas standing to embellish death and injuries. The mere reporting of 2 civilians reported dead would show once again Hamas can't be trusted. Also, Hamas has be known for using civilians as bait and it would not surprise me Hamas masquerading as civilians. 

Great news Israel getting the 4 hostages back. Their families and the hostages have had to be going through hell for 8 months.

[Luvnit2]

Hamas supporters destroy property and attack police and park rangers last Saturday in D.C. If you do not watch conservative news stations, hard to find the pics and story on National news outlets, as CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN and MSNBC did not cover it.

Why?????

[StoneTheCrow]

(06-10-2024, 08:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas supporters destroy property and attack police and park rangers last Saturday in D.C. If you do not watch conservative news stations, hard to find the pics and story on National news outlets, as CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN and MSNBC did not cover it.

Why?????

Awfully quiet around here about all that. Odd.

[Luvnit2]

(06-10-2024, 08:16 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Awfully quiet around here about all that. Odd.

Reminds me of Sgt. Shultz on Hogan's Heroes when it comes to Joe Biden's lack of mental acuity and Hamas................

I see nothing!!!!!!!

[Dill]

(06-10-2024, 08:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas supporters destroy property and attack police and park rangers last Saturday in D.C. If you do not watch conservative news stations, hard to find the pics and story on National news outlets, as CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN and MSNBC did not cover it.

Why?????

WaPo and NYT and CNN are national news outlets, aren't they? Along with internationals like Reuters and the AP.

I got better search results when substituted "pro-Palestinian" for "Hamas supporters." 

"Destroy property" appears to mean "extensive graffiti." 

 https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/08/us/video/pro-palestinian-protesters-demand-ceasefire-gaza-washington-dc-white-house-todd-nr-digvid
https://www.msnbc.com/weekends-with-alex-witt/watch/pro-palestinian-protesters-outside-white-house-with-red-line-banner-212572229562

But thank heavens for the conservative news stations, which helped us understand how terrible it all was. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-11-2024, 04:52 PM)Dill Wrote: WaPo and NYT and CNN are national news outlets, aren't they? Along with internationals like Reuters and the AP.

I got better search results when substituted "pro-Palestinian" for "Hamas supporters." 

"Destroy property" appears to mean "extensive graffiti." 

 https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/08/us/video/pro-palestinian-protesters-demand-ceasefire-gaza-washington-dc-white-house-todd-nr-digvid
https://www.msnbc.com/weekends-with-alex-witt/watch/pro-palestinian-protesters-outside-white-house-with-red-line-banner-212572229562

You've been reduced to trying to parse a difference between "property destruction" and "extensive graffiti".  These people still remind you of your halcyon days as an anti-Vietnam War protestor?  

[Dill]

(06-11-2024, 05:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You've been reduced to trying to parse a difference between "property destruction" and "extensive graffiti".  These people still remind you of your halcyon days as an anti-Vietnam War protestor?  

LOL from such comments, people could get the impression it's YOU living in MY head. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-11-2024, 06:16 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL from such comments, people could get the impression it's YOU living in MY head. 

You're the one who made the comparison, Dill.  Not me.  I'd dodge your predicament too, given how badly these protestors are looking.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-10-2024, 08:16 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Awfully quiet around here about all that. Odd.

It does not fit the clickbait narrative that feeds the lockstep masses.

Thus, it does not exist for them.

Similar to it being relatively quiet from the right in the thread about SCOTUS gifts.

[Dill]

(06-11-2024, 06:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're the one who made the comparison, Dill.  Not me.  I'd dodge your predicament too, given how badly these protestors are looking.

The comparison is not the issue. 

It's that you present your private impression of posters 'internal subjective states as on the same order as publicly accessible date.

That's a kind of dodge, and especially bad when you are unable to summarize or otherwise accurately represent other's arguments.