Has democracy ended in the U.S.?

[Bengalzona]

(07-02-2018, 10:19 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I loved that game but it always came down to luck with the last few mines. I will say that my win/loss ratio was 5/1 which ain't to bad.

Not at all bad. Pretty good, IMO.

[J24]

We're not a democracy and we never have been a democracy. Democracy is bad and if you don't know that then you are part of the problem.
What we are is a constitutional representative republic where your rights are guaranteed by the creator/ laws of nature.

[treee]

(07-03-2018, 01:10 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We're not a democracy and we never have been a democracy. Democracy is bad and if you don't know that then you are part of the problem.
What we are is a constitutional representative republic where your rights are guaranteed by the creator/ laws of nature.

I think that people who speak authoritatively while simultaneously oversimplifying are the problem. 

[Bengalzona]

(07-03-2018, 04:33 AM)treee Wrote: I think that people who speak authoritatively while simultaneously oversimplifying are the problem. 

[Dill]

(07-02-2018, 08:33 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Total burn. Can you tell me the issues that I consider me over us?

I might be able to.

Construct a list of Trump policies that do not affect you, personally, today. 

If, after looking at the list, you conclude "no effect on me, no problem then," then your question is answered.


I don't think that short-sighted standard is yours, though. I think you do have a problem with unethical behavior in leaders, and bad policies, whether they personally affect you or not.  So I understand why you might react to Dino's cartoon.  The question is, how representative are people like you anymore? Are you still the majority? For how long?

[Dill]

(07-03-2018, 11:50 AM)Bengalzona Wrote:

lol  Wait. No. There is something very unfunny about that meme in today's politics, where authority has become unmoored from the factual record and reason.

[J24]

(07-03-2018, 04:33 AM)treee Wrote: I think that people who speak authoritatively while simultaneously oversimplifying are the problem. 

Words have meanings!! We have never been democracy.

[Dill]

(07-02-2018, 09:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Yup. In sports terms these people are called homers, or ones that will cheer on their side and blindly defend it.

Leftist: "No walls or fences, open the border, all are welcome!"
Realist: "What utopian world do you think we are a part of?"

Rightist: "Global warming is a conspiracy theory"
Realist: "You do realize 99% of scientists that have published on this disagree with you?"

This is why we need to be careful about claiming "both sides do it."  To make that work you have to construct evidence that fits the theory rather than base the theory on empirical evidence.

Many real leftists might actually be for an open border.  But the vast majority of Democrats are not leftists and don't* want an open border. Don't put Trump's words in liberal centrists' mouths and then represent them as "leftists."

Also, the reference to the scientific consensus on global warming certainly is "leftist," not to mention liberal centrist, and questioned by the right. But you have decided call that reference "realist," rather than point out that in this case, "both sides" don't do it.

*fixed it!

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 12:33 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Words have meanings!! We have never been democracy.

Yes, we have been. Words do have meanings, and you ought to look up the definitions of democracy before stating that the United States has never been one. I can recommend some reading if you would like as a good bit of my recreational reading is on democratic theory.

[Dill]

(07-03-2018, 12:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes, we have been. Words do have meanings, and you ought to look up the definitions of democracy before stating that the United States has never been one. I can recommend some reading if you would like as a good bit of my recreational reading is on democratic theory.

You know, I think some of this "US-is-not-a-democracy" comes from the Hillsdale school of Constitutional interpretation favored by right wing talk shows.  I have heard Rush say that often, and never heard him take a call in disagreement.

Remember Madison's argument in Federalist No. 10, where he distinguishes between face-to-face and representative democracy?  That gets spun into the "we are Republic, not a democracy" claim. 

I think that spin was largely a response to the 1960s, when war protesting counter culturalists made such a media splash, and conservatives did not want to risk votes on their policies.  It is the kind of claim which is quite at odds with the current right populism, though. There certainly is a case to be made that many or most of the founders did not intend universal suffrage and expected a CIVIL and classically educated social elite to rule the country.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 12:59 PM)Dill Wrote: You know, I think some of this "US-is-not-a-democracy" comes from the Hillsdale school of Constitutional interpretation favored by right wing talk shows.  I have heard Rush say that often, and never heard him take a call in disagreement.

Remember Madison's argument in Federalist No. 10, where he distinguishes between face-to-face and representative democracy?  That gets spun into the "we are Republic, not a democracy" claim. 

I think that spin was largely a response to the 1960s, when war protesting counter culturalists made such a media splash, and conservatives did not want to risk votes on their policies.  It is the kind of claim which is quite at odds with the current right populism, though. There certainly is a case to be made that many or most of the founders did not intend universal suffrage and expected a CIVIL and classically educated social elite to rule the country.

I could get this thread extremely sidetracked on this topic. I will only make a couple of points to this, though.

First, even without universal suffrage, the country would be classified as a democracy. Even if eligibility for voting disqualifies chunks of the population, the hallmark of a democracy is an electoral process where the results are free and fair. However, democracy is not an all or none situation, and so the more inclusive your suffrage is, the more democratic the society is.

Second, I think you may be misunderstanding the intentions of the founders. This part gets a bit more complicated, but they did certainly look for safeguards against the rabble unseating the more wealthy folks. At the same time, though, there was populist streaks among them that aimed to prevent any sort of elite class from forming. Jefferson, for instance, had on more than on occasion called for measures to prevent automatic inheritance of property.

Anyway, the long and short for both of our posts is that democracy comes in many different flavors, but it is still democracy.

[Bengalzona]

(07-03-2018, 01:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I could get this thread extremely sidetracked on this topic.

Considering that bfine, Dino and I spent half a page discussing sigs and old video games, sidetracking really isn't such a big problem in this thread.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-02-2018, 05:27 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I've been surviving them since Johnson, who incidently actually showed his johnson to someone while he was President.

Carter wasn't a good POTUS, but he was sincere. For more than any of the others.

Nixon used to be the worst. But even he had some good points.

Yeah.....my wording wasn't the best on that.....but you get the gist.  I agree about Jimmy, that Merrill Lynch puppet after him, not so much.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-02-2018, 06:23 PM)Dill Wrote: There is a denial in two aspects here.

The Obama/Hillary conspiracies rely on disregard of the factual record.

Trump defenses do pretty much the same.

In one case, the goal was to use right wing media to create facts. In the other it was to use that media to deny them.

That's why now people can say "Republicans thought the world would end under Obama and now Democrats are doing the same. Both sides do it"

Except it's not the same.  No president has EVER behaved as badly in public as Trump, or know as little about governing, and no group of supporters has ever cared less how he behaves or knows.

I dunno about that man.....William McKinley selling out every single working man, woman, and child to the likes of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Morgan is probably the lowest point for the office of president to date.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 01:50 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I dunno about that man.....William McKinley selling out every single working man, woman, and child to the likes of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Morgan is probably the lowest point for the office of president to date.

I could argue several different presidents that were worse in official action than Trump. Andrew Johnson springs to mind, immediately. But public behavior? I think Trump trumps them all.

[Bengalzona]

(07-03-2018, 01:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah.....my wording wasn't the best on that.....but you get the gist.  I agree about Jimmy, that Merrill Lynch puppet after him, not so much.

Reagan had some issues, to be sure (Iran-Contra, trickle-down, changing FCC rules, etc.). But he also had some good points. He was enormously inspirational for a lot of people at certain times ("surly bonds" speech, "tear down this wall" speech, etc.). He was what he was: a good actor and, thereby, a good motivator.

Arming the Afghan rebels was the right decisions at that time and combined with increased military posturing on our part (stealth tech, the successful "Star Wars" hoax, etc.), helped hasten the breakup of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, the following admins didn't follow-up with Afghanistan afterwards.

[Millhouse]

(07-03-2018, 12:41 PM)Dill Wrote: This is why we need to be careful about claiming "both sides do it."  To make that work you have to construct evidence that fits the theory rather than base the theory on empirical evidence.

Many real leftists might actually be for an open border.  But the vast majority of Democrats are not leftists and do want an open border. Don't put Trump's words in liberal centrists' mouths and then represent them as "leftists."

Also, the reference to the scientific consensus on global warming certainly is "leftist," not to mention liberal centrist, and questioned by the right. But you have decided call that reference "realist," rather than point out that in this case, "both sides" don't do it.

How can the vast majority of Democrats want an open border, yet not be leftist? You lost me there. 

Regardless I was just using rightist and leftist as broad example about homers on both sides blindy defending/supporting whatever misguided stuff they may believe in. Which was in reference to Bels point on the division happening right now.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 02:03 PM)Millhouse Wrote: How can the vast majority of Democrats want an open border, yet not be leftist? You lost me there. 

They don't want an open border, at least not the vast majority, or even a majority. That is a false narrative crafted by the right-wing in order to paint the left in a more damaging light. It relies on the false dichotomy that you either want the type of border security the right is proposing or you want open borders, when the reality is that there are many ways to secure our borders without relying on the tactics favored by the current administration.

[Bengalzona]

As I understand it, "Catch and Release" is still currently being done by this administration despite the no tolerance policy.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-03-2018, 01:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I could argue several different presidents that were worse in official action than Trump. Andrew Johnson springs to mind, immediately. But public behavior? I think Trump trumps them all.

Johnson, Wilson (Fed Reserve), Hoover was pretty bad publicly denying starving masses aid, Harding, Nixon was impeached, Clinton had the sex scandals and lied under oath, and these guys didn't operate in a climate of oversaturation of media.