(03-28-2019, 12:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is likely that Mueller handed things off and filed the report because he had concluded the investigation into what he was hired to investigate. He likely did not want to continue on with all of the things that spun off because he knew the public's appetite for it would not do. He did his job, he turned in the report, he is done. The other investigations do not require a special counsel.
It is not Deutsche Bank. The mystery company is state-owned, whereas Deutsche Bank is a publicly traded entity.
Palmer ReportVerified account @PalmerReport
The ongoing existence of the Mueller grand jury, confirmed by the DOJ yesterday, strongly strongly suggests that Barr forced Mueller off the job. If so, the Mueller report is based on an incomplete probe - which would explain why he didn’t find enough to bring collusion charges.
The pieces of the puzzle is beginning to come together.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(03-28-2019, 01:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: Schiff didn't lie. Mueller report didn't exonerate Trump on obstruction. Barr did admit to that.
Oh, I should have said collusion instead of obstruction. That's what Schiff said.
(03-28-2019, 01:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: How do we know Barr didnt tell him to end it ?
(03-28-2019, 01:12 PM)jj22 Wrote: The ongoing existence of the Mueller grand jury, confirmed by the DOJ yesterday, strongly strongly suggests that Barr forced Mueller off the job.
Cool, two other people had a similar idea. However, Barr himself said that DOJ didn't interfere with Mueller's doing. I have a somewhat hard time believing he would lie about that.
Well the collusion piece is up in the air too now that the DOJ admitted to a grand jury still being involved which means the investigation isn't complete and it's looking more and more like Barr did what Sessions wouldn't and put an end to it prior to it's conclusion.
Which means in about a month as things continue to leak and get figured out, this will be a significant scandal that will likely lead to impeachment.
We are living through a moment in history never to be duplicated again.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(03-28-2019, 01:15 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh, I should have said collusion instead of obstruction. That's what Schiff said.
Cool, two other people had a similar idea. However, Barr himself said that DOJ didn't interfere with Mueller's doing. I have a somewhat hard time believing he would lie about that.
Barr? You might want to read up on his history. He's not beyond playing politics. That's why he was hired by Trump. To do what Sessions wouldn't do.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
Jill Wine-BanksVerified account @JillWineBanks
Barr claim it will take wks to review and redact Mueller Report and that he is limited by grand jury secrecy is fallacious for several reasons:
1. He can ask Chief Judge of District Court in DC for permission to release GJ testimony as Watergate grand jury did in public interest+
Barr's lying and he's gotten Trump in a worse position then he was in Thursday of last week.
Quote:"Success doesn’t mean every single move they make is good" ~ Anonymous "Let not the dumb have to educate" ~ jj22
(03-28-2019, 01:22 PM)jj22 Wrote: Barr? You might want to read up on his history. He's not beyond playing politics. That's why he was hired by Trump. To do what Sessions wouldn't do.
I get mistrusting him, I wouldn't necessarily trust him too, but this would be quite a cheeky lie. Saying DOJ didn't interfere with the investigation when he in fact ordered it to end. Mueller and his team would know better and hence Barr would be in grave danger of being exposed. Not impossible he lied about that, but somewhat hard tio imagine for me.
Somewhat more plausible - if it is - seems that Mueller tried to let the investigation escape his oversight by handing it off. That might also explain that weird obstruction (this time I mean it) case. Because honestly, it wouldn't have taken a special counsel to say I don't know I won't decide that.
(03-28-2019, 12:50 PM)hollodero Wrote: But they require his grand jury? Weird. Ok, admittedly I have no clear idea what a grand jury actually does.
To be a bit more conspiratory, because reasonable is boring - theoretically, could Mueller have handed off a report over an actually still ongoing investigation to get Barr out of the oversight for the final conclusions? Is it totally clear he concluded the investigation itself?
If they already have a grand jury empaneled to handle the investigation, it's prudent tn continue using the same one. The grand jury is used by the prosecution to have the authority to bring indictments. They will present evidence to the grand jury which will then say whether or not they are satisfied enough for charges to be brought. It's a weird system.
As for your theory, no. Barr has oversight over anything in the DoJ, so by handing it off Barr still has oversight.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-28-2019, 01:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: How do we know Barr didnt tell him to end it ?
There were signs it was winding down before Barr was confirmed.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-28-2019, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If they already have a grand jury empaneled to handle the investigation, it's prudent tn continue using the same one. The grand jury is used by the prosecution to have the authority to bring indictments. They will present evidence to the grand jury which will then say whether or not they are satisfied enough for charges to be brought. It's a weird system.
As for your theory, no. Barr has oversight over anything in the DoJ, so by handing it off Barr still has oversight.
OK... so who is using the grand jury now to, for lack of a better word, verify indictments? Who's doing the indicting now? And has Barr oversight over this person(s) or over, say, the southern NY district investigations too? Could he turn down this one and others or cover up potential findings, prevent indictments and so forth?
(03-28-2019, 02:06 PM)hollodero Wrote: OK... so who is using the grand jury now to, for lack of a better word, verify indictments? Who's doing the indicting now? And has Barr oversight over this person(s) or over, say, the southern NY district investigations too? Could he turn down this one and others or cover up potential findings, prevent indictments and so forth?
Barr is the Attorney General, which means he is the top law enforcement officer in the country and is the boss of any DoJ official. Prosecutors in SDNY as well as the office using the Mueller grand jury all answer to Barr, who then answers to Trump.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-28-2019, 02:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Barr is the Attorney General, which means he is the top law enforcement officer in the country and is the boss of any DoJ official. Prosecutors in SDNY as well as the office using the Mueller grand jury all answer to Barr, who then answers to Trump.
That said, Attorney Generals do not stay AG's forever. When the admin is gone, they usually are too. Hence, most a prudent enough to realize that anything that might be covered up now may also be revealed in the future. Possibly with devastating consequences.
(03-28-2019, 01:17 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well the collusion piece is up in the air too now that the DOJ admitted to a grand jury still being involved which means the investigation isn't complete and it's looking more and more like Barr did what Sessions wouldn't and put an end to it prior to it's conclusion.
Which means in about a month as things continue to leak and get figured out, this will be a significant scandal that will likely lead to impeachment.
We are living through a moment in history never to be duplicated again.
Keep hope alive JJ. I don't want you getting overly depressed in thinking maybe POTUS did nothing wrong.
There's some mental gymnastics here trying to suggest Barr ended the investigation. As Matt pointed out, it was ending well before him. Mueller investigated, compiled a report, and handed it off. He did his job.
Now it's time for Congress to follow up on obstruction if they ever see the report and think Mueller's arguments in favor outweigh his arguments against.
(03-28-2019, 10:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's some mental gymnastics here trying to suggest Barr ended the investigation. As Matt pointed out, it was ending well before him. Mueller investigated, compiled a report, and handed it off. He did his job.
Now it's time for Congress to follow up on obstruction if they ever see the report and think Mueller's arguments in favor outweigh his arguments against.
This is the part where I'm still confused. I thought the whole point of the investigation was to turn it over to Congress to make a decision, not any appointees (Trump's, Obama's, Clinton's Bush's, whoevers). If Congress felt something inappropriate had happened with a foreign power, then it would be able to take steps (legislation, funding, and, yes, even impeachment if necessary) to fix any problems found.
But... how are they supposed to fix any problems when the report isn't presented?
If there were issues with outside influences... and nothing is going to be done about it because it's redacted... then this was a giant waste of resources.
(03-29-2019, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: This is the part where I'm still confused. I thought the whole point of the investigation was to turn it over to Congress to make a decision, not any appointees (Trump's, Obama's, Clinton's Bush's, whoevers). If Congress felt something inappropriate had happened with a foreign power, then it would be able to take steps (legislation, funding, and, yes, even impeachment if necessary) to fix any problems found.
But... how are they supposed to fix any problems when the report isn't presented?
If there were issues with outside influences... and nothing is going to be done about it because it's redacted... then this was a giant waste of resources.
The DOJ appointed Mueller, not Congress. Congress has the ability to conduct their own investigations.
(03-29-2019, 12:07 AM)Benton Wrote: This is the part where I'm still confused. I thought the whole point of the investigation was to turn it over to Congress to make a decision, not any appointees (Trump's, Obama's, Clinton's Bush's, whoevers). If Congress felt something inappropriate had happened with a foreign power, then it would be able to take steps (legislation, funding, and, yes, even impeachment if necessary) to fix any problems found.
But... how are they supposed to fix any problems when the report isn't presented?
If there were issues with outside influences... and nothing is going to be done about it because it's redacted... then this was a giant waste of resources.
According to Title 28, Chapter VI, §600.8-Notification and reports by the Special Counsel:
Under §600.9-Notification and reports by the Attorney General:
Quote:(a)(3) Upon conclusion of the Special Counsels investigation, including, to the extent consistent with applicable law, a description and explanation of instances (if any) in which the Attorney General concluded that a proposed action by a Special Counsel was so inappropriate or unwarranted under established Departmental practices that it should not be pursued.
Nothing in this says the report shall be provided to Congress or the public. It stops with the AG and it is up to them to make the decision of who to provide with what information based on departmental guidelines and the law.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(03-29-2019, 08:35 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The DOJ appointed Mueller, not Congress. Congress has the ability to conduct their own investigations.
(03-29-2019, 08:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: According to Title 28, Chapter VI, §600.8-Notification and reports by the Special Counsel:
Under §600.9-Notification and reports by the Attorney General:
Nothing in this says the report shall be provided to Congress or the public. It stops with the AG and it is up to them to make the decision of who to provide with what information based on departmental guidelines and the law.
I get that part, but I thought the executive branch was in support of putting the report in front of Congress. Was it not, or was this a change of course?
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