2020 Presidential Election

[Dill]

Profiles in courage:

This thread just got me to thinking about something--does anyone know if Trump has ever fired a secretary or a general or a Director or a Chief-of-staff face-to-face?

McChrystal was in the news last year for calling Trump "immoral" and a liar. Trump responded tweeting that the general let Obama fire him "like a dog."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/politics/trump-tweet-mcchrystal/index.html

And then retired Adm. McRaven had McChrystal's back. https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/02/general-mcchrystal-president-trump-mcraven-earlystart-sot-vpx.cnn.

McChrystal actually turned in a resignation, but not before Obama met him face to face to explain why he would have to go. Firing the DNI Blair was similar--ramifications are explored first, then the guy is called in, resignation follows with a legal/Constitutional rationale appropriate to doing "the people's business."

That reminded me--so many Trump guys learn about their firing on the news or in a tweet to the public. Comey was about to address an FBI gathering in FBI when his firing was announced on a tv in the room, and he was not even allowed to fly back to Washington on a government plane. Tilleerson was on a shitter somewhere in Africa when his tweet went public. Bolton was fired on Twitter too, has he announced he was quitting.  Is that intended as extra humiliation or is it that Trump really can't face people he is firing?  The firings often seem to catch Trump's own staff by surprise because they are so impulsive.

It's clear which style of firing shows more deliberation, but which shows more courage? Neither president avoids directly naming his target so naming cannot serve as criterion for distinction.

Is "showing courage" important for a president, and if so, how should that be done?  What counts as "courage" and what counts as "showing"?

 

[GMDino]

(05-22-2020, 02:09 AM)Dill Wrote: Profiles in courage:

This thread just got me to thinking about something--does anyone know if Trump has ever fired a secretary or a general or a Director or a Chief-of-staff face-to-face?

McChrystal was in the news last year for calling Trump "immoral" and a liar. Trump responded tweeting that the general let Obama fire him "like a dog."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/politics/trump-tweet-mcchrystal/index.html

And then retired Adm. McRaven had McChrystal's back. https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/02/general-mcchrystal-president-trump-mcraven-earlystart-sot-vpx.cnn.

McChrystal actually turned in a resignation, but not before Obama met him face to face to explain why he would have to go. Firing the DNI Blair was similar--ramifications are explored first, then the guy is called in, resignation follows with a legal/Constitutional rationale appropriate to doing "the people's business."

That reminded me--so many Trump guys learn about their firing on the news or in a tweet to the public. Comey was about to address an FBI gathering in FBI when his firing was announced on a tv in the room, and he was not even allowed to fly back to Washington on a government plane. Tilleerson was on a shitter somewhere in Africa when his tweet went public. Bolton was fired on Twitter too, has he announced he was quitting.  Is that intended as extra humiliation or is it that Trump really can't face people he is firing?  The firings often seem to catch Trump's own staff by surprise because they are so impulsive.

It's clear which style of firing shows more deliberation, but which shows more courage? Neither president avoids directly naming his target so naming cannot serve as criterion for distinction.

Is "showing courage" important for a president, and if so, how should that be done?  What counts as "courage" and what counts as "showing"?

 

More profiles in courage:

Trump went to Michigan yesterday and held a campaign rally photo op thinly disguised as a taxpayer funded trip to Ford Motor and then after he got back to the safety of his his WH bathroom started ripping the AG of Michigan.  He could have met with her while he was there but he wanted to show his "personal courage" of using her name on twitter instead.

He really earned that "Man of the Year" award from Michigan that he repeatedly says he won but that doesn't actually exist.  

We should ALL (and especially President Obama) strive to have the courage to hide behind our phones and attack people by name rather than meet with them when we have the opportunity! 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-22-2020, 02:09 AM)Dill Wrote: Profiles in courage:

This thread just got me to thinking about something--does anyone know if Trump has ever fired a secretary or a general or a Director or a Chief-of-staff face-to-face?

McChrystal was in the news last year for calling Trump "immoral" and a liar. Trump responded tweeting that the general let Obama fire him "like a dog."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/01/politics/trump-tweet-mcchrystal/index.html

And then retired Adm. McRaven had McChrystal's back. https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/02/general-mcchrystal-president-trump-mcraven-earlystart-sot-vpx.cnn.

McChrystal actually turned in a resignation, but not before Obama met him face to face to explain why he would have to go. Firing the DNI Blair was similar--ramifications are explored first, then the guy is called in, resignation follows with a legal/Constitutional rationale appropriate to doing "the people's business."

That reminded me--so many Trump guys learn about their firing on the news or in a tweet to the public. Comey was about to address an FBI gathering in FBI when his firing was announced on a tv in the room, and he was not even allowed to fly back to Washington on a government plane. Tilleerson was on a shitter somewhere in Africa when his tweet went public. Bolton was fired on Twitter too, has he announced he was quitting.  Is that intended as extra humiliation or is it that Trump really can't face people he is firing?  The firings often seem to catch Trump's own staff by surprise because they are so impulsive.

It's clear which style of firing shows more deliberation, but which shows more courage? Neither president avoids directly naming his target so naming cannot serve as criterion for distinction.

Is "showing courage" important for a president, and if so, how should that be done?  What counts as "courage" and what counts as "showing"?

 

Yes, but Dill, Obama took McChrystal aside and looked him in the eye in private. Behind closed doors. Instead of publicly on Twitter in less than 280 characters. It takes a real man’s man to fire someone in less than 280 characters.

Plus Obama didn’t even call McChrystal any names in public like Baby Murderin’ McChrystal. You know, like Trump is famous for doing in public? Obama probably didn’t get into name calling with the general because he doesn’t know more than the generals like Trump.

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2020, 09:45 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yes, but Dill, Obama took McChrystal aside and looked him in the eye in private. Behind closed doors. Instead of publicly on Twitter in less than 280 characters. It takes a real man’s man to fire someone in less than 280 characters.

Plus Obama didn’t even call McChrystal any names in public like Baby Murderin’ McChrystal. You know, like Trump is famous for doing in public? Obama probably didn’t get into name calling with the general because he doesn’t know more than the generals like Trump.

I can't view certain posts, but we're calling Trump courageous for loudly lying? Yikes.

[GMDino]

(05-22-2020, 11:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't view certain posts, but we're calling Trump courageous for loudly lying? Yikes.

To be fair the poster said Trump had the "personal courage" to insult people by name but Obama didn't because Obama talked about adults who still act like children without mentioning names and the OP assumed he meant Trump.  

I can't imagine why. 

[GMDino]

I'm just gonna lay this one in here.


Donald J Trump cannot even give a speech in honor of veterans for Memorial Day without showing his true personal courage by verbally attacking his enemies by NAME!

What a patriot!

"These people are sick. Anyway ... " -- Trump's Memorial Day speech has now devolved into lies about Nancy Pelosi pic.twitter.com/K0ET6wBfQx

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 22, 2020

[*bfine32*]

(05-22-2020, 11:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't view certain posts, but we're calling Trump courageous for loudly lying? Yikes.

No, but not surprisingly some are trying to twist it into that instead of addressing what was actually said. I merely said when your goal is ti slur someone it's more courageous to use there name instead of hiding behind ambiguity. We've already seen it in the replies here saying "he wasn't talking about Trump when he was talking about the Nation's Leadership...."

Like so many thinks a simple "It's more courageous to call someone out by name than veiled attacks.." became 3 pages of made up shit. I plainly said Trump's comments were below the office of POTUS.

But one thing we know for certain: There will not be any black folk voting for Trump...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-tells-popular-radio-host-you-aint-black-if-considering-voting-for-trump-154645383.html

Quote:“It’s a long way until November,” he said. “We’ve got more questions.”


“You’ve got more questions?” Biden replied. “Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

To his credit: I don't think he mentioned anything about having Hot Sauce in his pocket.

[Dill]

(05-22-2020, 11:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't view certain posts, but we're calling Trump courageous for loudly lying? Yikes.

Well yes, if he has the personal courage to name his target.

It's even more courageous to call someone out by name on Twitter than face-to-face.

Extra courage points for men who call out women.

Unless you are utterly blinded by liberal bias, you know Obama has never had the balls to step forward and say "Rosie is a fat pig!" in public.

And that's how we end up refusing to admit that Trump has a modicum of "personal courage"--because Trump.

The bias is everywhere for "all who can see" Lol

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2020, 03:07 PM)Dill Wrote: And that's how we end up refusing to admit that Trump has a modicum of "personal courage"--because Trump.


The bias is everywhere for "all who can see" Lol

This is why I use the ignore function. It's like an email spam filter. 

[GMDino]

(05-22-2020, 02:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No, but not surprisingly some are trying to twist it into that instead of addressing what was actually said. I merely said when your goal is ti slur someone it's more courageous to use there name instead of hiding behind ambiguity. We've already seen it in the replies here saying "he wasn't talking about Trump when he was talking about the Nation's Leadership...."

Like so many thinks a simple "It's more courageous to call someone out by name than veiled attacks.." became 3 pages of made up shit. I plainly said Trump's comments were below the office of POTUS.

But one thing we know for certain: There will not be any black folk voting for Trump...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-tells-popular-radio-host-you-aint-black-if-considering-voting-for-trump-154645383.html

To his credit: I don't think he mentioned anything about having Hot Sauce in his pocket.

I kind figured you'd jump on that.

Maybe he should have pointed out his African American?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-22-2020, 02:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No, but not surprisingly some are trying to twist it into that instead of addressing what was actually said. I merely said when your goal is ti slur someone it's more courageous to use there name instead of hiding behind ambiguity. We've already seen it in the replies here saying "he wasn't talking about Trump when he was talking about the Nation's Leadership...."

Like so many thinks a simple "It's more courageous to call someone out by name than veiled attacks.." became 3 pages of made up shit. I plainly said Trump's comments were below the office of POTUS.

But one thing we know for certain: There will not be any black folk voting for Trump...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-tells-popular-radio-host-you-aint-black-if-considering-voting-for-trump-154645383.html

To his credit: I don't think he mentioned anything about having Hot Sauce in his pocket.

LOL

Your point has been addressed multiple times. You’ve exceeded your usual Skip Bayless level of obstinacy in the face of logic and reason and entered the Stephen A. Smith zone.

Congratulations.

I guess.

[Dill]

(05-21-2020, 07:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Second, do what you think is right. Doing what feels good, what's convenient, what's easy -- that's how little kids think. Unfortunately, a lot of so-called grown-ups, including some with fancy titles and important jobs, still think that way -- which is why things are so screwed up. I hope that instead, you decide to ground yourself in values that last, like honesty, hard work, responsibility, fairness, generosity, respect for others. You won't get it right every time, you'll make mistakes like we all do. But if you listen to the truth that's inside yourself, even when it's hard, even when its inconvenient, people will notice. They'll gravitate towards you. And you'll be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

I don't care what the rest of you say.

"Little kids" may appear to be the target Obama's speech, but the bolded is AIMED DIRECTLY AT TRUMP.

The "honesty, hard work, responsibility, fairness, generosity and respect for others" is the clincher.
Trump has staked out the opposite position on each of those specific ideals. The selection cannot be a coincidence.

If Trump is down in the gutter with his constant "Obamagate" lying, you are lying to yourself if you don't think this kind of personal attack without the courage to name one's target puts Obama right down there in the gutter with him. 

A sad moment when all past and sitting presidents can do is bash each other. Both are acting beneath their office.

Equivalence.

[GMDino]

(05-22-2020, 03:25 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't care what the rest of you say.

"Little kids" may appear to be the target Obama's speech, but the bolded is AIMED DIRECTLY AT TRUMP.

The "honesty, hard work, responsibility, fairness, generosity and respect for others" is the clincher.
Trump has staked out the opposite position on each of  those specific ideals. The selection cannot be a coincidence.

If Trump is down in the gutter with his constant "Obamagate" lying, you are lying to yourself if you don't think this kind of personal attack without the courage to name one's target puts Obama right down there in the gutter with him. 

A sad moment when all past and sitting presidents can do is bash each other. Both are acting beneath their office.

All seriousness aside that's the best thing about Trump supporters:  If anyone talks about being respectful, or thinking, or acting mature or anything that most of us adults can do (or at least fake in public) Trump supporters get into a snowflake tizzy about Trump being "attacked"...because they KNOW Trump is none of those things so they ASSUME it is directed at him.  Like if someone said "don't hate jews" and so people started saying "Hey!  Trump doesn't hate Jews!" I'd know immediately that Trump really hates Jews.

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2020, 03:25 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't care what the rest of you say.

"Little kids" may appear to be the target Obama's speech, but the bolded is AIMED DIRECTLY AT TRUMP.

The "honesty, hard work, responsibility, fairness, generosity and respect for others" is the clincher.
Trump has staked out the opposite position on those specific ideals. The selection cannot be a coincidence.

If Trump is down in the gutter with his constant "Obamagate" lying, you are lying to yourself if you don't think this kind of personal attack without the courage to name one's target puts Obama right down there in the gutter with him. 

A sad moment when all past and sitting presidents can do is bash each other.

It's an important message. One of the problems with teaching government is that I have to worry about people wanting me to "teach both sides", especially now with all of my material online. I'll do what I can to play devil's advocate and present things as "some believe this while others believe this. Use the evidence and make up your own mind".

But... what could I possibly post from Trump if I were to post Obama's graduation speech? Even on the most important occasions, he takes any oppurtunity to lie and insult people. With out fail. I guess I could find something from W? We've gotten to the point where I have to promote W's oratory skills because the GOP has normalize Donald Trump.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-22-2020, 03:07 PM)Dill Wrote: Well yes, if he has the personal courage to name his target.

It's even more courageous to call someone out by name on Twitter than face-to-face.

Extra courage points for men who call out women.

Unless you are utterly blinded by liberal bias, you know Obama has never had the balls to step forward and say "Rosie is a fat pig!" in public.

And that's how we end up refusing to admit that Trump has a modicum of "personal courage"--because Trump.

The bias is everywhere for "all who can see" Lol

Is it courage or does Trump’s penchant to constantly lie about Obama indicate he suffers from Obama Derangement Syndrome? Because, you know, Obama.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-22-2020, 03:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's an important message. One of the problems with teaching government is that I have to worry about people wanting me to "teach both sides", especially now with all of my material online. I'll do what I can to play devil's advocate and present things as "some believe this while others believe this. Use the evidence and make up your own mind".

But... what could I possibly post from Trump if I were to post Obama's graduation speech? Even on the most important occasions, he takes any oppurtunity to lie and insult people. With out fail. I guess I could find something from W? We've gotten to the point where I have to promote W's oratory skills because the GOP has normalize Donald Trump.

But, Obama.

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2020, 03:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: All seriousness aside that's the best thing about Trump supporters:  If anyone talks about being respectful, or thinking, or acting mature or anything that most of us adults can do (or at least fake in public) Trump supporters get into a snowflake tizzy about Trump being "attacked"...because they KNOW Trump is none of those things so they ASSUME it is directed at him.  Like if someone said "don't hate jews" and so people started saying "Hey!  Trump doesn't hate Jews!" I'd know immediately that Trump really hates Jews.

"Hey dude, don't make fun of people with disabilities"

"God damn snowflake"





"Let's find a good charity to donate to, not one that may misuse funds for personal gain"

"You leftists are TRIGGERED!"



"Don't call people rude names"

"THE FIRST AMENDMENT!!!"



"Don't start fake universities to defraud average joes"


"THAT'S HIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!"



"Don't payoff porn stars"


"F**KING FEMINAZIS!"



"Admitting to sexual assault on video is a really bad thing..."

"You telling me your dad never took you to a prostitute when you were 14 and then hit you with a shoe for 2 hours afterwards when you couldn't stop uncontrollably sobbing?"

(I'm assuming that's what happened to former poster St. WhiteSupremacist after his dad took him)

[BmorePat87]

(05-22-2020, 03:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: But, Obama.

Seeing a black man in a tan suit sitting in the Oval Office really did a number of conservatives. 

[Dill]

(05-22-2020, 03:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: All seriousness aside that's the best thing about Trump supporters:  If anyone talks about being respectful, or thinking, or acting mature or anything that most of us adults can do (or at least fake in public) Trump supporters get into a snowflake tizzy about Trump being "attacked"...because they KNOW Trump is none of those things so they ASSUME it is directed at him.  Like if someone said "don't hate jews" and so people started saying "Hey!  Trump doesn't hate Jews!" I'd know immediately that Trump really hates Jews.

This is why Obama can be so insidious and cowardly at the same time.

When he references dishonesty, hard work, and respect for others, while the sitting president publicly flouts honesty and rule of law, and is lazy to the point of not even reading PDBs, while daily taking public disrespect of even his own staff to tsunami proportions never seen in any president--it's like holding up a life size poster of Trump while speaking and then going all denial mode like "but I didn't mention his name."

This is the Obama version of the DOGWHISTLE--"honesty" and "respect for others." The reference is as clear as "urban poor."

PS I am not defending Trump here.  Both are equally bad!                                                                       




    sorry couldn't hold it in any longer

[GMDino]

(05-22-2020, 03:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's an important message. One of the problems with teaching government is that I have to worry about people wanting me to "teach both sides", especially now with all of my material online. I'll do what I can to play devil's advocate and present things as "some believe this while others believe this. Use the evidence and make up your own mind".

But... what could I possibly post from Trump if I were to post Obama's graduation speech? Even on the most important occasions, he takes any oppurtunity to lie and insult people. With out fail. I guess I could find something from W? We've gotten to the point where I have to promote W's oratory skills because the GOP has normalize Donald Trump.

You could always use his speech to the BSA.  

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/07/25/trump-2017-national-scout-jamboree-orig.cnn