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(07-27-2020, 07:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Violence against peaceful protestors and media.
Barr lied about it.
Just to get a photo op for Trump.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/politics/white-house-protest-church/index.html
Can anyone think of a more clear use of gestapo tactics? Beat up protestors AND MEDIA just to create some propaganda for Trump to appeal to Christians.
They were told to leave and refused to do so. It seems they were given 3 warnings. Playing this up as "just attacking protesters" is intellectually dishonest IMO. You have a right to the 1st Amendment, but it has limits. When told to vacate an area where POTUS is scheduled to appear falls into outside the limits IMO.
The photo Op was stupid, but so were folks that failed to follow instructions.
WTS, the fact that this Major is allowed to speak kills the Gestopo equivalence.
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(07-27-2020, 10:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: They were told to leave and refused to do so. It seems they were given 3 warnings. Playing this up as "just attacking protesters" is intellectually dishonest IMO. You have a right to the 1st Amendment, but it has limits. When told to vacate an area where POTUS is scheduled to appear falls into outside the limits IMO.
If it is perfectly okay then why did Barr lie about it?
Why did he claim they had to be removed because they were "unruly"?
Doesn't it concern you that teh President and his men are lying their asses off to justify using violence against peaceful protestors?
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(07-27-2020, 10:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it is perfectly okay then why did Barr lie about it?
Why did he claim they had to be removed because they were "unruly"?
Doesn't it concern you that teh President and his men are lying their asses off to justify using violence against peaceful protestors?
Because he was trying to appease the Left that was outraged.
He should have just said: "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
IMO when you've been instructed 3 times to leave and refuse to do so, you lose your status as a victim.
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Be careful making "you" comments. You might mean "you people" or "your side", but it can easily be construed as "you personally".
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(07-27-2020, 07:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Violence against peaceful protestors and media.
Barr lied about it.
Just to get a photo op for Trump.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/politics/white-house-protest-church/index.html
Can anyone think of a more clear use of gestapo tactics? Beat up protestors AND MEDIA just to create some propaganda for Trump to appeal to Christians.
Violence against clergy from the local Episcopal diocese, cleared off the church property well before the curfew was in place so that the government could use it...
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(07-28-2020, 12:49 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Violence against clergy from the local Episcopal diocese, cleared off the church property well before the curfew was in place so that the government could use it...
Yup. The whole "they were asked to leave" is bullshit when it was the clergy of the church itself that they did this to. That is what a freedom of religion is supposed to protect against, yet we have the government stepping all over their rights in this action. Defending these actions is defending an unconstitutional act and, quite frankly, tyranny.
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(07-28-2020, 07:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup. The whole "they were asked to leave" is bullshit when it was the clergy of the church itself that they did this to. That is what a freedom of religion is supposed to protect against, yet we have the government stepping all over their rights in this action. Defending these actions is defending an unconstitutional act and, quite frankly, tyranny.
So there was only clergy left? As I said the Photo Op was stupid, said it the day it happened, but you were instructed clear an area where the President of the United States was coming. What would you expect to happen to you if you refused to leave?
It's not like these folks were rounded up in cattle cars are taken to concentration camps. It's not like they were told you can never protest here again. They were told to go home a little earlier than a mandatory curfew. Feel free to bring your signs and lighters back tomorrow morning. . Call it "bullshit" if you want, but that's exactly what they were asked to do. No more, no less.
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(07-28-2020, 08:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So there was only clergy left? As I said the Photo Op was stupid, said it the day it happened, but you were instructed clear an area where the President of the United States was coming. What would you expect to happen to you if you refused to leave?
It's not like these folks were rounded up in cattle cars are taken to concentration camps. They were told to go home. Call it "bullshit" if you want, but that's exactly what they were asked to do. No more, no less.
Doesn't matter if there were "only clergy." They invaded and confiscated church property from the clergy that were there. That's exactly what they did, and that's unconstitutional.
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(07-28-2020, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Doesn't matter if there were "only clergy." They invaded and confiscated church property from the clergy that were there. That's exactly what they did, and that's unconstitutional.
"Invaded and confiscated" for about 5 minutes. We're just going to have to disagree on this one.
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(07-28-2020, 08:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: "Invaded and confiscated" for about 5 minutes. We're just going to have to disagree on this one.
No matter how long it was for, the words are still accurate.
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(07-28-2020, 08:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: No matter how long it was for, the words are still accurate.
They can be disputed. All that was done was a bath was cleared to stand in from of the church. They didn't invade and wash their feet in the holy water. I get why you< KOS, Rutherford, and others want to frame it as so. But IMO that motive has gone from truth to motivation when we do.
They asked folks to clear an area, they refused. They didn't end religion and burn the bibles.
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(07-28-2020, 08:50 AM)bfine32 Wrote: They can be disputed. All that was done was a bath was cleared to stand in from of the church. They didn't invade and wash their feet in the holy water. I get why you< KOS, Rutherford, and others want to frame it as so. But IMO that motive has gone from truth to motivation when we do.
They asked folks to clear an area, they refused. They didn't end religion and burn the bibles.
They took over church grounds from the clergy. They didn't ask to use it; they took it by force. Even telling them to leave first isn't asking. It was confiscation. There is no other way to see it. When you look at the objective facts, not the subjective truth, they confiscated the church grounds from the clergy.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
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(07-28-2020, 08:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: They took over church grounds from the clergy. They didn't ask to use it; they took it by force. Even telling them to leave first isn't asking. It was confiscation. There is no other way to see it. When you look at the objective facts, not the subjective truth, they confiscated the church grounds from the clergy.
What part of the photo is church grounds?
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(07-28-2020, 09:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What part of the photo is church grounds?
The part in front of the church that this image is saying there weren't protesters at but there were. I'm basing my information off of clergy members that were there, on church grounds, and were run off by the officers.
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(07-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The part in front of the church that this image is saying there weren't protesters at but there were. I'm basing my information off of clergy members that were there, on church grounds, and were run off by the officers.
I have no doubt clergy were ran off public property. it's the whole confiscate and invade that I find to be perhaps a little embellished for drama's sake.
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(07-28-2020, 07:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup. The whole "they were asked to leave" is bullshit when it was the clergy of the church itself that they did this to. That is what a freedom of religion is supposed to protect against, yet we have the government stepping all over their rights in this action. Defending these actions is defending an unconstitutional act and, quite frankly, tyranny.
By all media accounts, the “3 warnings” issued by the Park Service were unintelligible even by those closest to the park police. The recent comments from the National Guard officer there say that they were barely audible to him 20 feet away, much closer than any protestor.
But as you’ve said, regardless of warnings or the amount of time in which they used it, clearing clergy from church property to use church property for government use is an issue.
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(07-28-2020, 09:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What part of the photo is church grounds?
What is the source of this photo? How do we know it is accurate?
Edit: Nevermind. I did the work and found it.
Here is the entire article about Trump using a church for a photo op and his forces to gas protestors so he could do it.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2020/06/05/george-floyd-protests-trump-church-photo-curfew-park/3127684001/
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(07-28-2020, 09:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I have no doubt clergy were ran off public property. it's the whole confiscate and invade that I find to be perhaps a little embellished for drama's sake.
Yep, they were lying about being on church grounds and being forced to leave. I'm sure that is the more likely scenario in all of this. Not an administration that has consistently lied to the public trying to justify their actions. Yeah, they're more trustworthy than the clergy of the church.
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(07-28-2020, 09:34 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yep, they were lying about being on church grounds and being forced to leave. I'm sure that is the more likely scenario in all of this. Not an administration that has consistently lied to the public trying to justify their actions. Yeah, they're more trustworthy than the clergy of the church.
How many times has the administration’s account of this incident been modified after patently false details in their story were contested?
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(07-28-2020, 09:34 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yep, they were lying about being on church grounds and being forced to leave. I'm sure that is the more likely scenario in all of this. Not an administration that has consistently lied to the public trying to justify their actions. Yeah, they're more trustworthy than the clergy of the church.
I didn't say anyone was lying and the tone of tone of this post shows me rational discussion has come to an end. You can be right.
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