LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 11:00 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I looked into it more, and I found I was wrong and he shot someone before the video I watched. I found another video showing the first victim was chasing Kyle and attacking him. Kyle shooting a warning shot in the air while running away from the first victim. Kyle was still being chased, so he defended himself. More people started chasing him and attacking him. He continued to defend himself. That's what the videos that have been released clearly show.

If you have anymore evidence of wrongdoing on Kyles part I would appreciate it so I can change my opinion.

I'm far from an expert on this, or anything for that matter, but I can't help but feel like warning shots are one of those things that works in the movies but not in real life.  The idea of introducing the discharge of a firearm and the threat of lethal violence into a situation as a means to diffuse things seems like it could be quite counter productive.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:12 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm far from an expert on this, or anything for that matter, but I can't help but feel like warning shots are one of those things that works in the movies but not in real life.  The idea of introducing the discharge of a firearm and the threat of lethal violence into a situation as a means to diffuse things seems like it could be quite counter productive.

Well there's else nothing Kyle could have done at that point. He was being chased and had things thrown at him. I know a warning shot isn't amazing, but at least it's trying to deter him from being attacked and having to use deadly force, especially when there was a group of people behind the first person who was shot.



For the Jacob Blake story

https://www.newsweek.com/jacob-blake-knife-car-kenosha-shooting-doj0-1527930

The DOJ has said that officers arrived at the residence after a woman called police and said her boyfriend "was present and was not supposed to be on the premises."....

Sheskey shot 29-year-old Blake while holding onto his shirt after officers first unsuccessfully used a Taser, according to the DOJ.

"Mr. Blake walked around his vehicle, opened the driver's side door, and leaned forward," the DOJ said in a statement. "While holding onto Mr. Blake's shirt, Officer Rusten Sheskey fired his service weapon 7 times. Officer Sheskey fired the weapon into Mr. Blake's back."......

Blake admitted that he had a knife in his possession during the investigation following the shooting, according to the DOJ.


State agents later recovered a knife from the driver's side floorboard of the vehicle, the DOJ said. No other weapons were located in the vehicle. The DOJ did not say Blake threatened anyone with the knife.

Raysean White, the man who said he filmed the video of the shooting that circulated widely online, told The Associated Press that he heard officers shout "Drop the knife! Drop the knife!" before they shot Blake, but said he didn't see one in his hands.

[BmorePat87]

(08-27-2020, 11:00 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I looked into it more, and I found I was wrong and he shot someone before the video I watched. I found another video showing the first victim was chasing Kyle and attacking him. Kyle shooting a warning shot in the air while running away from the first victim. Kyle was still being chased, so he defended himself. More people started chasing him and attacking him. He continued to defend himself. That's what the videos that have been released clearly show.

If you have anymore evidence of wrongdoing on Kyles part I would appreciate it so I can change my opinion.

The evidence has already been posted. People will view it different ways. 

Some see throwing a plastic bag with a bottle of soda in it as "being attacked" and grounds for shooting someone point blank in the head. Some see people trying to stop an active shooter as "being attacked".

Also, he didn't fire a warning shot. Video shows it came from someone in the street shooting in the air. 

[Belsnickel]

This is my position on the Rittenhouse situation:

-He is guilty of at least a Class A misdemeanor in Wisconsin for carrying underage.

-There is no "stand your ground" law in Wisconsin, but there also isn't a duty to retreat unless you provoked the situation. Witnesses would be the key, here, as we don't really know how the confrontation started. If Rittenhouse provoked the interaction to start with, he had the duty to retreat. He was getting away and then decided to turn around and fire at his pursuer. We don't have enough information on this initial altercation to say, specifically.

-The second fatality and the person injured are brave, but stupid. That whole situation was handled poorly. I get dude wanted to go non-lethal with him but damn.

-Cops messed this one up. They were being told the kid killed two people. They should have took him into custody to sort things out.

-1st degree seems to be an overcharge. I mean, they do have 1st degree reckless homicide, but I still thing 2nd degree reckless would be more reflective of the events we saw.

Edit: final thought on this. I guess the Rittenhouse shooting highlights how gun control won't stop criminals from having them.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:24 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The evidence has already been posted. People will view it different ways. 

Some see throwing a plastic bag with a bottle of soda in it as "being attacked" and grounds for shooting someone point blank in the head. Some see people trying to stop an active shooter as "being attacked".

Also, he didn't fire a warning shot. Video shows it came from someone in the street shooting in the air. 

https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1298627537980010504


The guy was clearly trying to attack Kyle. He's charging towards him and throwing things at him, even if it was only a bottle that's obviously aggressive behavior. It's not like he was just standing around. Why try to charge at someone who hasn't shot anyone or committed any crimes? After Kyle shoots him out of self defense he continues to run and continues to be attacked. There's really no other way you can spin that.

Why run after someone with a gun who didn't do anything? Why try to taunt him and throw things at him? When he's clearly trying to retreat and get the hell out of dodge you keep going after him. I don't know what else is going to happen other than that. If someone is willing to do that who knows if they're going to try to wrestle the gun out of your hand to kill you. After that Kyle continues to run away trying to go to the cops. He doesn't shoot anymore and is just still trying to get the hell out of dodge. More people attack him and he again defends himself.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 11:20 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Well there's else nothing Kyle could have done at that point. He was being chased and had things thrown at him. I know a warning shot isn't amazing, but at least it's trying to deter him from being attacked and having to use deadly force, especially when there was a group of people behind the first person who was shot.

The short of it is that he went through the intentional and long process of taking a weapon to a place where he would be surrounded by people he wanted to shoot.  I'm not even talking about guilt or self-defense, he just seems to have gotten what he wanted and now people are going to deliberate on how much he risked or should lose to achieve it.
He got what he wanted.  He got to shoot and kill protesters and they made him do it because they are every bit as vile and evil as he had been told they were.  His freedom should be a small price to pay for that validation.  He can be a straight-up martyr for his cause.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 11:24 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The evidence has already been posted. People will view it different ways. 

Some see throwing a plastic bag with a bottle of soda in it as "being attacked" and grounds for shooting someone point blank in the head. Some see people trying to stop an active shooter as "being attacked".

In all fairness he does fit the profile of a mass shooter, doesn't he?

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is my position on the Rittenhouse situation:

-He is guilty of at least a Class A misdemeanor in Wisconsin for carrying underage.

-There is no "stand your ground" law in Wisconsin, but there also isn't a duty to retreat unless you provoked the situation. Witnesses would be the key, here, as we don't really know how the confrontation started. If Rittenhouse provoked the interaction to start with, he had the duty to retreat. He was getting away and then decided to turn around and fire at his pursuer. We don't have enough information on this initial altercation to say, specifically.

-The second fatality and the person injured are brave, but stupid. That whole situation was handled poorly. I get dude wanted to go non-lethal with him but damn.

-Cops messed this one up. They were being told the kid killed two people. They should have took him into custody to sort things out.

-1st degree seems to be an overcharge. I mean, they do have 1st degree reckless homicide, but I still thing 2nd degree reckless would be more reflective of the events we saw.

-I 100% agree with he should be charged with a class A misdemeanor for carrying underage

-Kyle seems to be trying to run away, and the guy is chasing him. He is trying to do his duty to retreat. It seemed like his pursuer was catching up to him in the video, and that's why he fired.

-I agree, the second fatality was stupid, and was handled poorly. He shouldn't have hit Kyle multiple times in the head with a skateboard.

-I agree that cops messed up. They 100% should have taken him into custody immediately and put under investigation. There is no way he should have made it back to his house or even made it passed those police trucks without being disarmed and detained.

-As far as what I've seen in the videos it seems like it was self defense and he should be charged with having a weapon while underaged and being out past curfew.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:33 AM)Nately120 Wrote: The short of it is that he went through the intentional and long process of taking a weapon to a place where he would be surrounded by people he wanted to shoot.  I'm not even talking about guilt or self-defense, he just seems to have gotten what he wanted and now people are going to deliberate on how much he risked or should lose to achieve it.
He got what he wanted.  He got to shoot and kill protesters and they made him do it because they are every bit as vile and evil as he had been told they were.  His freedom should be a small price to pay for that validation.  He can be a straight-up martyr for his cause.

You should be able to go anywhere in this country without being attacked. If you are attacked and you defend yourself that doesn't mean you should be charged with murder. If a black man goes somewhere that's very racist and he gets attacked by white supremacists and kills every single one of them I would be defending him 100% of the time.

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 11:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You should be able to go anywhere in this country without being attacked. If you are attacked and you defend yourself that doesn't mean you should be charged with murder. If a black man goes somewhere that's very racist and he gets attacked by white supremacists and kills every single one of them I would be defending him 100% of the time.

I hear ya, I'm just saying if I'm sitting there and Tom says to me "Man, I HATE Bill, I HATE HATE HATE Bill and I wish he were dead.  I'm going to take a gun and go talk to Bill" and then he comes back and says "Bill is dead...I didn't mean to do anything to him!" I'm going to remind him that taking a gun to go see Bill was a lousy idea.

This just comes off as yet another "I can't wait to put myself in a situation where I'm forced to kill people to defend myself" situation, but again I'm talking more about the American psychological condition rather than any sort of legal culpability.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2020, 11:38 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: -I 100% agree with he should be charged with a class A misdemeanor for carrying underage

-Kyle seems to be trying to run away, and the guy is chasing him. He is trying to do his duty to retreat. It seemed like his pursuer was catching up to him in the video, and that's why he fired.

-I agree, the second fatality was stupid, and was handled poorly. He shouldn't have hit Kyle multiple times in the head with a skateboard.

-I agree that cops messed up. They 100% should have taken him into custody immediately and put under investigation. There is no way he should have made it back to his house or even made it passed those police trucks without being disarmed and detained.

-As far as what I've seen in the videos it seems like it was self defense and he should be charged with having a weapon while underaged and being out past curfew.

(08-27-2020, 11:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You should be able to go anywhere in this country without being attacked. If you are attacked and you defend yourself that doesn't mean you should be charged with murder. If a black man goes somewhere that's very racist and he gets attacked by white supremacists and kills every single one of them I would be defending him 100% of the time.

You're making the assumption that Rittenhouse did not initiate the confrontation. This is not information we have at this point.

[GMDino]

(08-27-2020, 11:00 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I looked into it more, and I found I was wrong and he shot someone before the video I watched. I found another video showing the first victim was chasing Kyle and attacking him. Kyle shooting a warning shot in the air while running away from the first victim. Kyle was still being chased, so he defended himself. More people started chasing him and attacking him. He continued to defend himself. That's what the videos that have been released clearly show.

If you have anymore evidence of wrongdoing on Kyles part I would appreciate it so I can change my opinion.

No, the first victim was shot before anyone started chasing him.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/08/26/kenosha-shooting-video-shows-suspected-gunman-kyle-rittenhouse-being-allowed-to-leave-scene/

Quote:Before there were bullets in the air, there were atta-boys for the so-called citizens’ brigade that showed up armed.

“Thank you guys. Do you need water? Seriously. You need water? We’ll throw you one,” an officer says.


With that, the crew – some armed with long guns – took on the night. They did not have badges, but did seem to have tacit approval from the same sheriff’s officials who told others: “You are a civilian. The area is closed. You are trespassing. Leave. Leave now.”


Rittenhouse, part of the brigade, on Tuesday night is believed to have worn a white hat, green shirt, and blue gloves. He carried with him a long gun and, it appeared, permission.


In a hasty confession, the gunman appears to be heard saying, “I just killed somebody.”


In the same moment from a different angle, Good Samaritans are tending to a man who has been shot in the heard. As witnesses try to keep that man alive, Rittenhouse is apparently seen running down the street and gets noticed.


He is taken to the ground, and then fires his weapon at attackers. Another person appears to be shot by his long gun.


This time, police attended to the injured while the gunman kept walking – backward now, inching toward authorities at the end of the street as onlookers flagged him to police.


“Hey, he just shot them! Hey, dude right here shot them! Dude right here shot all them down there!” someone is heard saying.


With blue gloved hands in the air and the gun around his chest, the brigade member who was thanked at the start of the night was given safe passage past police. He was not stopped and cuffed, but was allowed to exit with only this warning: “You with the long gun – don’t come down here. This is closed.”

He shot someone, was chased, and shot two more people.  And the police didn't even stop him for questioning. 

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, I'm just saying if I'm sitting there and Tom says to me "Man, I HATE Bill, I HATE HATE HATE Bill and I wish he were dead.  I'm going to take a gun and go talk to Bill" and then he comes back and says "Bill is dead...I didn't mean to do anything to him!" I'm going to remind him that taking a gun to go see Bill was a lousy idea.

This just comes off as yet another "I can't wait to put myself in a situation where I'm forced to kill people to defend myself" situation, but again I'm talking more about the American psychological condition rather than any sort of legal culpability.

I've seen no evidence that Kyle said he wanted to harm anyone. Everything that I've read he just wanted to help people protect their property. He took a gun because there's been numerous incidents just recently where the rioters were extremely violet, and even killing people.

(08-27-2020, 11:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're making the assumption that Rittenhouse did not initiate the confrontation. This is not information we have at this point.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/video-first-kenosha-victim?utm_content=buffer22976&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=fb-patgrayunleashed&fbclid=IwAR1r3A0FnPPXOz7nHqYShC34VM7nm5PqXsyAvyI6pCcgNfKASjka5onnv8A

Shows the first victim is saying racist slurs and telling the militia to "shoot him". Everything points to that guy being the aggressor. There's way more evidence showing that Rittenhouse didn't initiate the confrontation. Now, like I said before if more information comes out I'll change my mind. It would have to be a lot since Rittenhouse was trying retreat from the situation, and if the victim wouldn't have chased him he wouldn't have been shot.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: No, the first victim was shot before anyone started chasing him.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/08/26/kenosha-shooting-video-shows-suspected-gunman-kyle-rittenhouse-being-allowed-to-leave-scene/



He shot someone, was chased, and shot two more people.  And the police didn't even stop him for questioning. 

That's incorrect. Even in the video you posted it showed him being chased, he shot him, continued to run and defended himself more.

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2020, 11:59 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: https://www.theblaze.com/news/video-first-kenosha-victim?utm_content=buffer22976&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=fb-patgrayunleashed&fbclid=IwAR1r3A0FnPPXOz7nHqYShC34VM7nm5PqXsyAvyI6pCcgNfKASjka5onnv8A

Shows the first victim is saying racist slurs and telling the militia to "shoot him". Everything points to that guy being the aggressor. There's way more evidence showing that Rittenhouse didn't initiate the confrontation. Now, like I said before if more information comes out I'll change my mind. It would have to be a lot since Rittenhouse was trying retreat from the situation, and if the victim wouldn't have chased him he wouldn't have been shot.

I saw the video, and it really isn't evidence of what you're talking about. It's a very short clip with no context and provides no evidence in either direction.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 12:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I saw the video, and it really isn't evidence of what you're talking about. It's a very short clip with no context and provides no evidence in either direction.

https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1298627537980010504

Ok, I see Kyle running away from the first guy who got shot. What am I getting wrong?

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 11:59 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I've seen no evidence that Kyle said he wanted to harm anyone. Everything that I've read he just wanted to help people protect their property. He took a gun because there's been numerous incidents just recently where the rioters were extremely violet, and even killing people.

Protecting property in this case can very well involve or require harming someone.  People who don't want to harm people don't open carry guns into areas of civil unrest.  Again, you are talking legality here and I'm saying a person who doesn't want to harm someone doesn't take a gun into a situation where something like this could happen.

I just don't think the winds of fate twisted his arm into using that gun of his he was so fond of quite as much as you do, that's all.  

[Belsnickel]

(08-27-2020, 12:06 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1298627537980010504

Ok, I see Kyle running away from the first guy who got shot. What am I getting wrong?

If Kyle initiating the confrontation, then he has a duty to retreat. There is no evidence either way on that one. In addition, though, it was one person chasing him and he was getting away until he made the decision to turn around and fire at the person chasing him. Under Wisconsin law, there needs to be a reasonable fear for life or serious injury for self-defense, which would have to play out in court to ascertain. But I have to reiterate, here, that if Kyle initiated the confrontation, even though he was being chased, he has a duty to retreat under Wisconsin law meaning that decided to stop running, turn around, and shoot his pursuer was a violation of that duty.

[Brownshoe]

(08-27-2020, 12:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If Kyle initiating the confrontation, then he has a duty to retreat. There is no evidence either way on that one. In addition, though, it was one person chasing him and he was getting away until he made the decision to turn around and fire at the person chasing him. Under Wisconsin law, there needs to be a reasonable fear for life or serious injury for self-defense, which would have to play out in court to ascertain. But I have to reiterate, here, that if Kyle initiated the confrontation, even though he was being chased, he has a duty to retreat under Wisconsin law meaning that decided to stop running, turn around, and shoot his pursuer was a violation of that duty.

If I was on the jury I would say that he has more than enough to say he had fear for at least serious injury. There's no reason why he should be chasing Kyle. Kyle was trying to get the f out of dodge and they continue go after him. You don't have eyes in the back of your head and you don't know if or when they're going to catch you. People have been beaten to death for less from these kinds of mobs in recent events. There is evidence of the victim harassing other militia before this happened. Telling a black person "Shoot me, Nig**r". Yes, I don't know if Kyle slapped the guy and ran away, but why in the world would you run after and throw things at someone with a gun when you're unarmed?

[*Nately120*]

(08-27-2020, 12:22 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: why in the world would you run after and throw things at someone with a gun when you're unarmed?

I ask the same question to everyone I know who swears they'd heroically confront an active shooter.