Do you believe; and why?

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 11:10 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Just because Adam and Eve (well actually all human beings for that matter) are confused and suffer because God created us and allows everything to happen doesn't mean he doesn't care about us. How can you make that conclusion? The fact that God even offers us a way out means he cares. Just because God knew what would happen doesn't mean that he can't care within the realm of already knowing. Even though God knew it would happen he still had mercy on them (and all of us) to the point that he wants us to actually come back to him. A non-caring being would not do that. A non-caring being would have obliterated them immediately or offered them no salvation whatsoever.

I fail to see how a "caring" deity would knowingly create and direct the very conditions that he knew would lead to a failed experiment. Moreover, he punished the subjects of the experiment for failing in the very scenario that he created -- knowing in advance that it would fail. Even more unnerving is the fact -- as part of this experiment -- allows the temptation of beings who have no knowledge of what temptation, right and wrong or good and evil even are. He literally punishes them for the scenario he created in which they were given incredibly limited information and then told there was a magic tree that offered knowledge, but they must avoid it and remain ignorant.

In what reality does any of that make any sense? In what reality is that type of capriciousness considered caring? In what reality are the subjects of an experiment punished for it's failure, while the creator of the experiment is exempt from responsibility?

Quote:It seems to me that you're trying to twist God's intentions. You're doing this roundabout thing of "The bible would like you to think that God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, but he actually did because he put it right there in the garden with them. Therefore he is evil".
But that's not true. God didn't want them to eat the fruit. Just because he put the tree there doesn't mean he had some real evil intention of having them eat the fruit so that he could punish them. Again, God's intention was for us to live in peace with him, not to disobey him.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I would rather you elaborate on the point you're making with this.

So, God had two options, as a matter of either/or.

1] He could have not put the tree in the garden, therefore eliminating the possibility that Adam and Eve would ever gain the knowledge of good and evil. This was however, what he wanted -- for them to remain ignorant of said knowledge. By doing this, there would be no opportunity for them to partake of that which was forbidden.

2] He could place the tree in the garden, making the very knowledge he forbid easily accessible to Adam and Eve. Furthermore, he could allow them the freedom to choose to partake of the knowledge. In addition he could endow them with a curious nature and then provide a method of temptation to further test and confuse these beings with infantile minds and extremely limited information.

One of these choices seems much more rational and competent than the other if the actual intent is to keep the knowledge of good and evil from his creation. Some might say, "well then they wouldn't have free will" or something along those lines. However, I see no problem with denying them access to that which he seemed so intent on them not learning, while still granting them freedom of choice in all other areas. Instead, he seems to have chosen the more convoluted approach, which, he knew ahead of time, which makes the account all the more puzzling - whether real or simply allegorical.