So what’s next?

[Dill]

(06-08-2020, 07:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: If you would like to have a conversation about the lack of in depth and critical analysis of policy issues in this forum, that is a legitimate conversation to have. But let's be clear, that has never happened. It didn't have with George W. Bush, it didn't happen with Barack Obama, and it isn't happening with Donald Trump. There are always going to be those that don't contribute in a civil manner. Some of us gave up long ago but randomly see something interesting and try to have a good conversation but it is mostly ignored.

Anyway, the derailment that occurs is not because Trump was brought up, it is because people choose to make it about him, the person, and not his role as POTUS. He is the executive. He is responsible for every single policy that comes out of the White House. That's how our system works. Just bringing Trump into something doesn't mean it is a derailment. Which is why you were putting words in my mouth.

I don't agree that we've never had "in-depth" critical analyses of policy issues in the forum. Factoring in our amateur status, we have had some good ones on foreign policy. They have been derailed at times when some people divert from policy to personal attack, calling others "disingenuous" or "liars", sure. I think we have had at least one good, developing discussion of voter suppression (you even posted an academic paper there); same for immigration and climate change, though admittedly these tend to get stalled when the personal attacks begin or one side simply bows out. 

But conversations are equally derailed when grounded criticisms of Trump are reflexively dismissed as "because Trump."

THAT is how people make it about Trump, the person, rather than policy.  As if connecting Trump's past policies and statements encouraging police brutality to current police brutality were simply a personal attack on the order of making fun of his hair, and a diversion from addressing the problem of police brutality.

As if we should leave Trump OUT of any discussion of why his AG and NSC advisor BOTH claim there is no systemic racism in police departments (when most reformers agree the preponderance of evidence suggests there is) because we don't want to "make it about Trump." https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/politics/justice-department-barr-racism-police.html

So I am agreeing with you here. Trump's position as POTUS places him at the center of Executive policy; impossible to discuss the policy without discussing the person who directs it.

"Derailment" is indeed what happens when people separate Trump the person from his actions as president.   What makes it worse the derailers continually invert cause/effect, claiming that criticizing Trump for what he actually does is "derailment," while separating him from his official actions (the import of "because Trump!") is not.

Rock bottom for the one-time party of personal responsibility.