08-21-2020, 03:19 PM
(08-21-2020, 02:04 PM)hollodero Wrote: I disagree - meaning of course, as a foreigner with no real idea I came to a different impression. When it comes to the "far left", well, you saw my posts, there are aspects within your response I do not disagree with. I also feel that the word "racism" is thrown out too loosely at times, and the accusation does get misused to silence opponents. Aside from that, I guess in many cases the intentions are pure and good, and also very often totally appropriate.
Something about the road to hell comes to mind.
Quote:Which leads me to the "far right". For sure, being far right is in no way akin to being racist, but there are quite a few racists (a little racists to full-blown racists) among the far right. Maybe you don't count David Duke or Richard Spencer or whatever white supremacy group that marches in an unite the right rally as "far right", but I would. But aside from that, there is also the Breitbart mob, which basically is a bunch of dogs barking as intended at every racist dog whistle that gets thrown out. This imho is not a neglectable, tiny group, and it's definitely a far right group, and boy many of them are quite racist.
There are quite a lot of racists on the far right. The far left certainly has its fair share of racists as well, they just don't tend to view their racism as such.
Quote:Which leads me to Donald Trump, for sadly everything also is about Donald Trump these days. This president imho is racist, or say he says a lot of racially precarious things. I made a list once somewhere. And while I'm usually rather cautious with racism accusations, Donald Trump fits the bill. And he has quite a lot of fans. Now while I am in no way accusing all Trump voters of racism, I can't quite acquit them of at least being somewhat indifferent to Trump's racism and of more or less consciously voting for a racist. And some are racists, Trump does not throw his tropes out for no one to digest, he has folks who actively like it.
He may be. I think it's more that he grew up in an era in which that kind of thought was much more prevalent and he never really grew out of it. A true racist wouldn't have anything to with those they hated, I don't think that's ever been the case with Trump. I think he has a lot of racist opinions and thoughts. I know this comparison won't really connect with you but it's a direct parallel. There's a guy on The Howard Stern show, Sal Governale. His father is a Sicilian immigrant and is absolutely racist against black people. While Sal was growing up he taught Sal a lot of racist "lessons" about black people. Sal, today, still has those thoughts in his head, and will say some racist things, but I don't think the guy is a racist at all. He just never learned to unwire those thoughts and feelings from early in his life. They still color his thoughts, but they don't cause him to fear or hate. Maybe I did a poor job of explaining it, but I do think a person have hold racist beliefs and not be a racist. There's a lot of room on the spectrum between a completely unracist person and a Klan member or black supremacist.
Quote:I think so too, and I'm not so sure many really dispute that. Regarding your example though, of course things are quite different and easier to laugh at when you're still the majority and only are not in a certain setting. If you're the minority and have experienced racism throughout your life (and I'd suppose pretty much every black person has experience with some form of racism), things are different.
Oh, I completely agree. I just use the example to point out that casual racism, such as was expressed to me, can be unintentionally stated without any racist intent.
Quote:Also, when it comes to black people, it's not just that people are held back, it's also that they get arrested and imprisoned more often, and mainly that they are victims of police killings more often. And of course by often being systematically targeted, like when this one police chief called for a "black day" and whatnot. With that I am not so much saying that just police is disadvantaging blacks, I claim that society (not every individial, some more or less unconsciously, it's this "systemic" thing folks often might not be even aware of) as a whole does; and police is just the example where the consequences of that are most dire. It is a topic that deserves attention and not just some kind of leftist identity politics issue. Imho.
This is a very touchy suspect, and actually one f the few areas in which Fred and I were in complete agreement. What you are stating here is true to an extent, but it absolutely does not account for the incredibly disproportionate number of violent crimes committed by black men in this country. There's something very wrong when ~7% of the population commits over half of the murder. If racism was the sole determinant of this disproportionality then we'd see it across the spectrum, but we don't. Hispanics commit crime around the same rate as their percentage of the population, the same with whites. Asians are actually under represented by quite a bit. Even Native Americans, who do show a disproportionate number, are only slightly over-represented, and they certainly got the shaft the worse in this country.
So, while what you say above is true, it's not the only reason for the problem. It's also why this problem will never be fixed, because the left flat out refuses to address this issue as a whole, instead they pretend it's solely about systemic racism. You can't patch the bullet hole in your chest, ignore the one in the back and expect the patient to survive. I think they feel that acknowledging the whole problem would, 1. be racist, and 2. would weaken their argument against systemic racism. Whatever the reason, it's the black community that will continue to suffer for it.
Quote:Hehe... I had thoughts about that, but I don't quite know if that's true. I supposed Dill won't. And the reason is of course that nothing I said imho can reasonably be deemed racism.
Trust me, that's not a bar the accusation has to hurdle.
Quote:I claim that I am not a racist, sure at times others reach different verdicts. We do have the more passionate kind of leftists here as well, and yeah they call me names at times for not fully agreeing with every racist, sexist or whatever conventional leftist wisdom thing, I know what you're referring to. Often though, it depends on the tone one uses. Meaning, folks are more likely to be berated as racists when they in return berate others as mindless, CNN-worshipping soreheads. The conversation between the two sides is full of ire for sure, but that imho isn't that much a leftist thing, but an american thing.
To an extent. I can tell you in the twenty years I've done my job I've only ever been accused of racism once, by a gang mom who would rather blame her family's criminality on me than her being a garbage parent. I have never worked an area that wasn't 90% plus minority either. But believe me when I say that this word is consistently used to shut down opposing viewpoints. As I said, you saw it first hand on this very forum, and I appreciate your joining me in its condemnation. I think largely due to the united front of opposition (there were others condemning it as well) we haven't seen it since. We created an environment in which the offender was made to realize we wouldn't tolerate such baseless accusations. Now, if we could move that concept to a larger scale of debate in this country we could actually have some real conversations and possibly fix a few problems.
