(10-13-2015, 10:40 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: [ -> ]That I can agree with. Hope to see more of it. Loved the spike after the TD last week.
Me too....and that isn't the first time he's done it either.....
(10-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]Except that different QBs have had different career paths throughout the years, and it was absolutely impossible to directly say that Andy would 100% perform like he is in 2015.
That's why people say stuff like "new Andy". We know he isn't an entirely new being, he's just playing very differently in many ways this year. I don't think it's an insult but you seem to be taking it that way. His decision making, pocket awareness, and his accuracy on every throw in the book are all so much better in 2015 than in the past. He has never looked this good consistently, and it's not insulting to bring that up.
To me, all of that is natural progression....as I've said, the "new" part is the intangibles of his game that he has ramped up.
(10-13-2015, 10:41 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: [ -> ]The biggest change in Dalton is his pocket presence. He's been able to throw the ball this well when he has a clean pocket. If you go back and look at the games in 2013 in his bad games he normally has 3+ sacks. Now he's able to create a little more time for himself, so he can throw it better down the field. Another big thing that's helping Dalton is that his receivers actually have experience now. In 2013 Green and Gresham were his only experienced receivers. It was everyone else first year pretty much. The receivers are making few mistakes now. Those two things are why he's playing so good this year.
The pocket presence is part of the mental thing. He's not panicking back there and he's keeping his head in the game. It's quite noticeable. You cannot count on a clean pocket, but still have to get the job done regardless. He's doing that now.
(10-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]Except that different QBs have had different career paths throughout the years, and it was absolutely impossible to directly say that Andy would 100% perform like he is in 2015.
That's why people say stuff like "new Andy". We know he isn't an entirely new being, he's just playing very differently in many ways this year. I don't think it's an insult but you seem to be taking it that way. His decision making, pocket awareness, and his accuracy on every throw in the book are all so much better in 2015 than in the past. He has never looked this good consistently, and it's not insulting to bring that up.
Did anyone expect Luck to perform the way he has so far this year? Are people calling him "Bad Andrew"? Of course not. Dalton is in his 5th year. He isn't a "new" QB. He's simply an experienced QB with a great supporting cast.
He would only be "new" to someone who hasn't been paying any attention at all. Granted he's added some new dimensions to his game, but it's not like he's been transformed into a guy I don't recognize. Maybe I'm just a little defensive, but it's not like the guy hasn't had a history of being belittled.
(10-13-2015, 10:51 AM)BengalChris Wrote: [ -> ]The pocket presence is part of the mental thing. He's not panicking back there and he's keeping his head in the game. It's quite noticeable. You cannot count on a clean pocket, but still have to get the job done regardless. He's doing that now.
Pocket presence you get from experience most of the time. It's the same thing with new fighters. They don't know how to take a punch. They put their head down and close their eyes and don't know what to do, but an experienced fighter knows how to take a punch. The same thing goes with pocket presence. There are people who naturally have pocket presence though. Just like there are some people who naturally know how to take a punch.
(10-13-2015, 11:02 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: [ -> ]Did anyone expect Luck to perform the way he has so far this year? Are people calling him "Bad Andrew"? Of course not. Dalton is in his 5th year. He isn't a "new" QB. He's simply an experienced QB with a great supporting cast.
He would only be "new" to someone who hasn't been paying any attention at all. Granted he's added some new dimensions to his game, but it's not like he's been transformed into a guy I don't recognize. Maybe I'm just a little defensive, but it's not like the guy hasn't had a history of being belittled.
Some what?
I can't speak for everybody, but I honestly don't mean it as an insult to Andy when I say "new Andy". I'm just bringing up the fact that he looks quite different this year than he has previously. He has never, ever, ever dropped dimes like this before. His passes have been a thing of beauty and it's like his accuracy isn't affected by being on the run or pressured as it had in the past. That's not even getting into what everyone else is talking about like the intensity and pocket awareness. I've seen Andy attempt all of these throws, but I've never seen him consistently hitting all of them as if he was a future Hall of Famer like he has in 2015. He's putting every throw exactly where it needs to be, and that's insane for a QB to do it at the rate Andy has been this season.
Call him "new Andy", "Andy with new dimensions", or whatever else, I love how he's playing right now.
(10-13-2015, 10:21 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]I think the "new" part of Dalton is mental. I just saw a clip on SI where Peter King said players are telling him that Dalton is a true leader this year, that he was much more "passive" in previous years. You can see it on his face on game days. Remember when something used to go wrong and he would get that "aw shucks" look on his face and smile? That is gone, I have literally not seen it a single time this year. Changing the plays at the line, talking to the offense on the sidelines, the decision making, his demeanor during the game. I personally think he has taken a big step this year.
Perfect example of this: on the mic'd up video of Dalton vs the Chiefs, right after Dalton has that low snap that he scoops up and immediately throws and drops into AJ Green's lap for a huge play, as he's running down the field, what's he doing? He's getting on Bodine for that low snap! "Get the snap up!"
(10-13-2015, 11:10 AM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]Some what?
I can't speak for everybody, but I honestly don't mean it as an insult to Andy when I say "new Andy". I'm just bringing up the fact that he looks quite different this year than he has previously. He has never, ever, ever dropped dimes like this before. His passes have been a thing of beauty and it's like his accuracy isn't affected by being on the run or pressured as it had in the past. That's not even getting into what everyone else is talking about like the intensity and pocket awareness. I've seen Andy attempt all of these throws, but I've never seen him consistently hitting all of them as if he was a future Hall of Famer like he has in 2015. He's putting every throw exactly where it needs to be, and that's insane for a QB to do it at the rate Andy has been this season.
Call him "new Andy", "Andy with new dimensions", or whatever else, I love how he's playing right now.
You love to call others out so it is your turn to fess up.
You stated numerous times in the past AD had peaked. You refused to accept our analysis of maybe a 3 or year QB has room to grow. You questioned constantly making statements such as (not exact words):
How much time do we give him before we move on? Some of us pointed out the injury issues in 2014 to AJ, MJ and Eifert but you decided to ignore the facts his cast was depleted.
I am glad you are happy now, I understand why you felt he may have peaked (did not agree), but now to act as though you were in his camp and had confidence he would progress is a huge stretch to those who read your posts about AD on the other board.
(10-13-2015, 10:46 AM)Wyche Wrote: [ -> ]To me, all of that is natural progression....as I've said, the "new" part is the intangibles of his game that he has ramped up.
Yeah, but how many times does that natural progression actually happen with a QB? Many, many QBs have fallen by the wayside long before this progression could take place. Some up and quit for not being about to catch up with the speed of the game. Some implode like Ryan Leaf. Some just never progress.
Just from Dalton's draft class: Locker, Ponder and Gabbert all started for their teams and none progressed much. Kaepernick had some success but really has been on a downward slide the last two years. Forget the coaching change this year, he just wasn't that good last year. Tyrod Talyor also came out that year and has finally progressed enough to start, but really, how long is a scrambling QB going to make it in this league without being able to throw consistently from the pocket?
Only Dalton and Newton from that year have developed in to stable starters. Both are undefeated this year so far.
From 2012 RGIII did the reverse progression from starting QB to scout team safety. Tannehill progressed every year until this year when the whole team imploded. Weeden never progressed much, if at all. Luck carried Indy for 3 years, but now injured and whole team has slid this year. We'll have to see what happens in Indy, but Luck came in at a much higher level than anyone in years.
(10-13-2015, 11:18 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]You love to call others out so it is your turn to fess up.
You stated numerous times in the past AD had peaked. You refused to accept our analysis of maybe a 3 or year QB has room to grow. You questioned constantly making statements such as (not exact words):
How much time do we give him before we move on? Some of us pointed out the injury issues in 2014 to AJ, MJ and Eifert but you decided to ignore the facts his cast was depleted.
I am glad you are happy now, I understand why you felt he may have peaked (did not agree), but now to act as though you were in his camp and had confidence he would progress is a huge stretch to those who read your posts about AD on the other board.
You're full of shit.
I've NEVER said he has peaked. Never. I would never make a comment like that. If you look at my posting history and my style in general, I never make claims like that about any player. Hell, I rarely say that stuff about guys that have been in the league for 10+ years.
The worst I've said that could come close to this is questioning people that would claim that it's 100% certainty that Andy would improve. I'd merely state that it's not certain, and that he COULD have peaked, we don't know for sure either way. I also have said that I didn't feel it was extremely likely for him to have a Drew Brees-esque career transformation.
Stop blatantly making shit up in your head and posting it as fact.
(10-13-2015, 11:25 AM)BengalChris Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, but how many times does that natural progression actually happen with a QB? Many, many QBs have fallen by the wayside long before this progression could take place. Some up and quit for not being about to catch up with the speed of the game. Some implode like Ryan Leaf. Some just never progress.
Just from Dalton's draft class: Locker, Ponder and Gabbert all started for their teams and none progressed much. Kaepernick had some success but really has been on a downward slide the last two years. Forget the coaching change this year, he just wasn't that good last year. Tyrod Talyor also came out that year and has finally progressed enough to start, but really, how long is a scrambling QB going to make it in this league without being able to throw consistently from the pocket?
Only Dalton and Newton from that year have developed in to stable starters. Both are undefeated this year so far.
From 2012 RGIII did the reverse progression from starting QB to scout team safety. Tannehill progressed every year until this year when the whole team imploded. Weeden never progressed much, if at all. Luck carried Indy for 3 years, but now injured and whole team has slid this year. We'll have to see what happens in Indy, but Luck came in at a much higher level than anyone in years.
The Colts have won twice since Luck has gone down. It helps when almost half of your games every year comes against the Titans, Jaguars, and Texans.
(10-13-2015, 10:36 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: [ -> ]"New"? When did it become "new" for a young QB to gain more confidence the more experience they get? I just find the modifiers "New", "Good", "Bad", etc. sort of patronizing. To me the dude is simply a young QB coming into his own. No different than the career trajectories of other QBs in the league.
It is "new" if it is something he has not demonstrated in the past. I'm not trying to argue with you, but he is not that young... this is his fifth year in the league, it's not like 2014 was his rookie season. It is also not at all patronizing to say that he is displaying new characteristics, especially when it is a positive.
I compliment him and you get upset by it??
(10-13-2015, 11:34 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]It is "new" if it is something he has not demonstrated in the past. I'm not trying to argue with you, but he is not that young... this is his fifth year in the league, it's not like 2014 was his rookie season. It is also not at all patronizing to say that he is displaying new characteristics, especially when it is a positive.
I compliment him and you get upset by it??
"New Andy" implies he is an entirely "new" QB. He is not.
Is Andrew Luck now a "new" QB since he is playing like shit?
(10-13-2015, 11:28 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: [ -> ]The Colts have won twice since Luck has gone down. It helps when almost half of your games every year comes against the Titans, Jaguars, and Texans.
Yes, it does help that they play in the AFC South, but you're really going to try to argue that Luck has not been in a league of his own when it comes to quarterbacks entering the NFL over the last few years? Most people said he was the most NFL ready quarterback since Manning. He has won in the playoffs, been to the AFC Championship Game, and has done so with a pretty miserable running game and defense.
You don't have to put others down while attempting to defend Dalton.
(10-13-2015, 11:25 AM)BengalChris Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, but how many times does that natural progression actually happen with a QB? Many, many QBs have fallen by the wayside long before this progression could take place. Some up and quit for not being about to catch up with the speed of the game. Some implode like Ryan Leaf. Some just never progress.
Just from Dalton's draft class: Locker, Ponder and Gabbert all started for their teams and none progressed much. Kaepernick had some success but really has been on a downward slide the last two years. Forget the coaching change this year, he just wasn't that good last year. Tyrod Talyor also came out that year and has finally progressed enough to start, but really, how long is a scrambling QB going to make it in this league without being able to throw consistently from the pocket?
Only Dalton and Newton from that year have developed in to stable starters. Both are undefeated this year so far.
From 2012 RGIII did the reverse progression from starting QB to scout team safety. Tannehill progressed every year until this year when the whole team imploded. Weeden never progressed much, if at all. Luck carried Indy for 3 years, but now injured and whole team has slid this year. We'll have to see what happens in Indy, but Luck came in at a much higher level than anyone in years.
That's true.....but you also have guys like Rodgers or Brady (and IN NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM, or FASHION am I comparing Andy to them) who get the luxury of sitting a year or three behind an established vet to learn and grow. Andy didn't get that luxury, and neither did the others you mentioned.....aside from, ironically...CK. The thing is, I actually thought he would wind up ok because of the success out of the gate and the work ethic he is known for. He's got a lot of football smarts too, and that pays dividends with a young QB. I'd be lying if I said I thought he could be as good as he's shown thus far this season, but I have always felt he would be a very solid, dare I say, Ken Anderson type of QB. I always felt he just needed more seasoning.....which would lead to better vision and pocket presence. The improvement of his accuracy and velocity added to this newfound fire are just icing on the cake.
(10-13-2015, 11:34 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]It is "new" if it is something he has not demonstrated in the past. I'm not trying to argue with you, but he is not that young... this is his fifth year in the league, it's not like 2014 was his rookie season. It is also not at all patronizing to say that he is displaying new characteristics, especially when it is a positive.
I compliment him and you get upset by it??
I think it is word semantics and nothing more.
You say "New"
Others (me) say improved or progressed as we don't feel a 5 year QB is new. But, it is a compliment in my opinion either way.
(10-13-2015, 11:41 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, it does help that they play in the AFC South, but you're really going to try to argue that Luck has not been in a league of his own when it comes to quarterbacks entering the NFL over the last few years? Most people said he was the most NFL ready quarterback since Manning. He has won in the playoffs, been to the AFC Championship Game, and has done so with a pretty miserable running game and defense.
You don't have to put others down while attempting to defend Dalton.
All I'm saying is look at his numbers vs his division. Then look at his numbers vs everyone else. When Dalton doesn't perform, he is trashed. When a guy like Luck doesn't perform, it's because his team has let him down.
Just asking for some consistency.
And the guy has won in the playoffs even though he has given the ball away more than he has scored it. Yet, no one seems to mind one bit.
(10-13-2015, 11:42 AM)Wyche Wrote: [ -> ]That's true.....but you also have guys like Rodgers or Brady (and IN NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM, or FASHION comparing Andy to them) who get the luxury of sitting a year or three behind an established vet to learn and grow. Andy didn't get that luxury, and neither did the others you mentioned.....aside from, ironically...CK. The thing is, I actually thought he would wind up ok because of the success out of the gate and the work ethic he is known for. He's got a lot of football smarts too, and that pays dividends with a young QB. I'd be lying if I thought he could be as good as he's shown thus far this season, but I have always felt he would be a very solid, dare I say, Ken Anderson type of QB. I always felt he just needed more seasoning.....which would lead to better vision and pocket presence. The improvement of his accuracy and velocity added to this newfound fire are just icing on the cake.
You mentioned Anderson and of all Bengals QB's he was always the guy AD reminded me of as well.
Smart
Audibles Well
Quick release
Good arm, but not a monster arm
I thing AD is a little more mobile
the funny thing is our fans also wanted run Kenny out of town early in his career using the same arguments used against AD.
(10-13-2015, 11:40 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: [ -> ]"New Andy" implies he is an entirely "new" QB. He is not.
Is Andrew Luck now a "new" QB since he is playing like shit?
I know that Luck has missed the last two weeks, which begs the question "was he hurt to start the season"? I don't know the answer to that.
"New" applies to a skill set and mentality that he did not seem to have in the past. It's not an insult. If I go back to school and get my M.B.A. then a part of me is "new" and I will most likely display skills and confidence I did not have in the past. Really, you're getting defensive when there is absolutely no reason to.
(10-13-2015, 11:34 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]It is "new" if it is something he has not demonstrated in the past. I'm not trying to argue with you, but he is not that young... this is his fifth year in the league, it's not like 2014 was his rookie season. It is also not at all patronizing to say that he is displaying new characteristics, especially when it is a positive.
I compliment him and you get upset by it??
....and that's part of the reason we're seeing such an improvement. It's kinda crazy when you think about it....not too long ago, a fifth QB was indeed young, and had probably spent at least a year on the bench learning, if not more. The league sure has changed.....and gotten impatient. I'm guilty of it too.....