Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(05-11-2021, 02:52 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: [ -> ]Wes,  didn't you know we're a team that builds through the draft? 

Mike has it figured out. It's easier to build through the draft if you're drafting in the top ten often.

Who needs scouts when they has all us experts online to scout for them.

Just kidding, the FO is a joke and always has been.

(05-11-2021, 01:26 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]If you wondering what in the hell this thread is supposed to mean then that's probably understandable.  The point of this thead is simple; sometimes seeing is better than hearing.

This really puts into perspective just how much less this franchise invests into the quality of their team.

Why did you leave Paul Brown, Katie Blackburn, and Troy Blackburn off the front office listing for the Bengals? They all hold positions that you included for other franchises. No bias at all I am sure.

(05-11-2021, 03:09 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: [ -> ]Browns are good proof the size of the Front Office doesnt always mean much

For decades the Browns were also proof that building through the draft didn't work.  The Lions are proof HOF RBs and WRs don't matter.  Tom Brady and Jamarcus Russel combine to prove we should cut Burrow and draft a QB in the 6th round. 

Ok that last one is a bit much, but you get where I'm going. 

(05-12-2021, 08:57 PM)OSUfan Wrote: [ -> ]Why did you leave Paul Brown, Katie Blackburn, and Troy Blackburn off the front office listing for the Bengals? They all hold positions that you included for other franchises. No bias at all I am sure.

Not true.  Not sure if you read how I tallied each, but I followed the same exact steps.  I did not include anyone who is listed under ownership/management, training staff, tickets office, sales, PR, ect.  You're more than welcome to go to each team page and check the results.

I can go back and include each and every team and add the ownership/management for them if you like.  (If you notice I did not incude Steve Bisciotti or Richard Cass for the Ravens, Dee Haslam, Jimmy Haslam, JW Johnson,  and Whitney Haslam for the Browns, ot Art Rooney II, etc. for the Steelers)

What you'll be left with is pretty much the same disparity between the lists.

So, no offense but if there's any bias showing here it's your own. 

PS...

Here is the Bengals team staff page if anyone feels inclined to check my work...

https://www.bengals.com/team/front-office-roster/

Notice the names of the people OSUfan mentioned are listed under "ownership" and do NOT hold titles like: GM, Director of Personel, Director of Pro Personel, Director of College Scouting, Director of Pro Scouting, College Scout, Pro Scout, Scout, Analystics, Scouting Assistant, etc.

I assure you I compiled this list honestly. Anyone is more than welcome to go and check the other team pages. You clearly see I left their ownership/management off as well.

(05-12-2021, 09:57 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Here is the Bengals team staff page if anyone feels inclined to check my work...

https://www.bengals.com/team/front-office-roster/

Notice the names of the people OSUfan mentioned are listed under "ownership" and do NOT hold titles like:  GM, Director of Personel, Director of Pro Personel, Director of College Scouting, Director of Pro Scouting, College Scout, Pro Scout, Scout, Analystics, Scouting Assistant, etc.

I assure you I compiled this list honestly.  Anyone is more than welcome to go and check the other team pages.  You clearly see I left their ownership/management off as well.

I stopped at Dan Rooney Jr, 

(05-12-2021, 10:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]I stopped at Dan Rooney Jr, 

His title on the Steelers page is Player Personnel Coordinator, and he is listed under the "operations staff" along with all of the other traditional front office roles.  You can check here: https://www.steelers.com/team/front-office-roster/

Now if you want to hyperfocus on one person with the last name Rooney being included in their front office staff that is provided on the team page and remove him that's ok.  Or if you want to go ahead and add someone like Troy Blackburn that's ok too.  But does this exercise in semantics really accomplish anything?

No offense, but I find post like these only meant to distract from what's clearly visible in the OP.  Our front offiice is extremely small.

Go ahead and look at each list.  Focus on anything with "scout" in the name, or "analytics", or the numbers of Directiors of Personnel.  Tell me if the disparity isn't virtually the same.

(05-11-2021, 01:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Bengals
   Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
   Mike Potts Scouting Director (College)
   Steven Radicevic Scouting Director (Pro)
   Bill Tobin Personnel Executive
   Andrew Johnson Scout
   Christian Sarkisian Scout
   Geoff Smith Scouting Technology Consultant
   Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant

Doug Rosfeld isn't listed is he still around?

I'm not sure how much weight you can put on a website though. I've worked for a company where I was a nobody but was listed on the external website and taken more senior, higher paid jobs at different companies when I wasn't. If this mattered the Bengals could pad out their website by listing all the interns they have compiling scouting tapes and give them fancy titles.

(05-11-2021, 01:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Steelers
   Kevin Colbert Vice President & General Manager
   Omar Khan Vice President of Football & Business Administration
   Dan Rooney Jr. Player Personnel Coordinator
   Brandon Hunt Pro Scouting Coordinator
   Phil Kreidler College Scouting Coordinator
   Rick Reiprish Senior Assistant, College Scouting
   Mark Bruener College Scout
   Mike Butler College Scout
   Dan Colbert College/Pro Scout
   Kelvin Fisher Scout
   Mark Gorscak College Scout
   Chidi Iwuoma College Scout
   Bruce McNorton College Scout
   Dave Petett Pro/College Scout
   Cole Marcoux Football Administration Coordinator
   Aidan Hennessey-Niland Team Operations Coordinator
   Tosin Kazeem Football Analyst
   Maureen Mannion Administrative Assistant
   Dennis MacInnis BLESTO Scout
   Fawwaz Izzuddin Scouting Intern
   Jay Whitmire Football Analyst
   Roger Goodell Team Ball Washer (yes, those balls)

Ravens
  Eric DeCosta Executive Vice President & General Manager
   Ozzie Newsome Executive Vice President
   Pat Moriarty Senior Vice President of Football Operations
   Joe Hortiz Director of Player Personnel
   George Kokinis Director of Player Personnel
   Vincent Newsome Senior Player Personnel Executive
   Nick Matteo Director of Football Administration
   David McDonald Director of Research & Development
   Mark Azevedo Assistant Director of College & Pro Personnel
   David Blackburn National Scout
   Brandon Berning Midwest/Southwest Area Scout
   Joey Cleary West Coast Area Scout
   Andrew Raphael Southeast Area Scout
   Bobby Vega East Area Scout
   Kevin Weidl Southeast/Southwest Area Scout
   Q Attenoukon College & Pro Scout
   Maggie Domanowski Administrative Assistant to Player Personnel
   Corey Frazier Pro Scout
   Jenn Hoffman Executive Assistant to the Executive Vice President & General Manager
   Corey Krawiec Manager, Player Evaluations & Analytics
   Sarah Mallepalle Player Personnel Analyst
   Patrick McDonough College & Pro Scout
   Terrell Parker Football Operations Assistant
   Chas Stallard College & Pro Scout
   Patrick Williams College & Pro Scout
   Derrick Yam Quantitative Analyst
   Jameel McClain Director of Player Engagement
   Sarah Snyder Director of Sports Nutrition
   Johnny Shelton Team Chaplain
   O.J. Brigance Senior Advisor to Player Engagement

Browns
  Andrew Berry Executive Vice President, Football Operations, General Manager
  Kwesi Adofo-Mensah Vice President, Football Operations
   Chris Cooper Vice President, Football Administration
   Ryan Grigson Senior Football Advisor
   Ken Kovash Vice President, Player Personnel Process & Development
   Tyler Hamblin Football Operations Coordinator
   Glenn Cook Vice President, Player Personnel
   Dan Saganey Director, Player Personnel
   Megan Rock Player Personnel Coordinator
   Debra Kruszynski Executive Assistant, Player Personnel/Coaching
   Adam Al-Khayyal Assistant Director, Pro Personnel
   Sam DeLuca Pro Scout
   Branden Francis Pro Scout
   Shaun Herock National Scout
   Charles Walls National Scout
   Zach Ayers Area Scout
   Colton Chapple Area Scout
   Josh Cox Area Scout
   Matt Donahoe Area Scout
   Gerald McCully Area Scout
   Jimmy Noel Area Scout
   Max Paulus Area Scout
   Dan Zegers Area Scout
   Mike Cetta Director, Scouting Research
   Zach Wigmore Scouting Research Coordinator
   Joe Dever Scouting Assistant
   Scott DiBenedetto Scouting Assistant
   Riley Hecklinski Scouting Assistant
   Shane Normandeau Scouting Assistant
   John Nussman Scouting Assistant
   Michael Romanella Scouting Assistant
   Scott Skuteris Scouting Assistant
   Rod Streater Scouting Assistant

Bengals
   Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
   Mike Potts Scouting Director (College)
   Steven Radicevic Scouting Director (Pro)
   Bill Tobin Personnel Executive
   Andrew Johnson Scout
   Christian Sarkisian Scout
   Geoff Smith Scouting Technology Consultant
   Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant

You missed one, but I fixed it for ya

(05-12-2021, 10:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]His title on the Steelers page is Player Personnel Coordinator, and he is listed under the "operations staff" along with all of the other traditional front office roles.  You can check here: https://www.steelers.com/team/front-office-roster/

Now if you want to hyperfocus on one person with the last name Rooney being included in their front office staff that is provided on the team page and remove him that's ok.  Or if you want to go ahead and add someone like Troy Blackburn that's ok too.  But does this exercise in semantics really accomplish anything?

No offense, but I find post like these only meant to distract from what's clearly visible in the OP.  Our front offiice is extremely small.

Go ahead and look at each list.  Focus on anything with "scout" in the name, or "analytics", or the numbers of Directiors of Personnel.  Tell me if the disparity isn't virtually the same.

Sure our FO is small and nepotistic. The post was more to question the source sited. 

(05-13-2021, 11:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Sure our FO is small and nepotistic. The post was more to question the source sited. 

I just linked you the source.  Open it up and look.  It's absolutely bs to accuse me of or imply that I'm being biased or have somehow constructed these lists in a way that isn't fair.

Fwiw, there's a number of Rooney's that aren't on the operations section of the staff.  Did it ever occur to you that that partilcar Rooney actually has a legitimate role in that dept?  Maybe he actually does things that earn that title, that someone like Troy Blackburn does not do here.

Like I said earlier, your reply is about what I expected.  Just something to distract from the overall point from the post.  Or you just want to be cute and snarky and bust balls. 

None of it changes that you clearly see our front office is incredibly small.  None of it changes you can clearly see the number of scouts.  But of course you don't want to focus on any of that do you?  You don't want to have an actual conversation about the thread.  You just want to pop in and hyperfocus on one name so deligitimize the entire post.  Thanks for that.

(05-12-2021, 09:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Not true.  Not sure if you read how I tallied each, but I followed the same exact steps.  I did not include anyone who is listed under ownership/management, training staff, tickets office, sales, PR, ect.  You're more than welcome to go to each team page and check the results.

I can go back and include each and every team and add the ownership/management for them if you like.  (If you notice I did not incude Steve Bisciotti or Richard Cass for the Ravens, Dee Haslam, Jimmy Haslam, JW Johnson,  and Whitney Haslam for the Browns, ot Art Rooney II, etc. for the Steelers)

What you'll be left with is pretty much the same disparity between the lists.

So, no offense but if there's any bias showing here it's your own. 

PS...

Paul Brown carries the title of player personnel and it is right on the team website so not sure what you are looking at.

(05-13-2021, 12:21 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]I just linked you the source.  Open it up and look.  It's absolutely bs to accuse me of or imply that I'm being biased or have somehow constructed these lists in a way that isn't fair.

Fwiw, there's a number of Rooney's that aren't on the operations section of the staff.  Did it ever occur to you that that partilcar Rooney actually has a legitimate role in that dept?  Maybe he actually does things that earn that title, that someone like Troy Blackburn does not do here.

Like I said earlier, your reply is about what I expected.  Just something to distract from the overall point from the post.  Or you just want to be cute and snarky and bust balls. 

None of it changes that you clearly see our front office is incredibly small.  None of it changes you can clearly see the number of scouts.  But of course you don't want to focus on any of that do you?  You don't want to have an actual conversation about the thread.  You just want to pop in and hyperfocus on one name so deligitimize the entire post.  Thanks for that.

What is with the constant narrative about the size of their scouting department when in fact they are definitely in the top half of the league when it comes to drafting. Obviously, it is not being detrimental to them when it comes to player evaluations. What some also seem to not consider is that complete game film is readily available to these teams at any given time due to technology. Scouting is vastly different than it used to be. They do not have to obtain physical copies of game film anymore.

(05-11-2021, 02:28 PM)Stewy Wrote: [ -> ]Which posting here changes nothing, posting here has no effect on the product on the field and posting here only serves to make people more cynical, angry and unhappy.  

Well done.

Yes, wish it would do some good, sadly it probably won't.

(05-13-2021, 09:32 PM)OSUfan Wrote: [ -> ]What is with the constant narrative about the size of their scouting department when in fact they are definitely in the top half of the league when it comes to drafting. Obviously, it is not being detrimental to them when it comes to player evaluations. What some also seem to not consider is that complete game film is readily available to these teams at any given time due to technology. Scouting is vastly different than it used to be. They do not have to obtain physical copies of game film anymore.

(05-13-2021, 09:28 PM)OSUfan Wrote: [ -> ]Paul Brown carries the title of player personnel and it is right on the team website so not sure what you are looking at.

You know, you are absolutely right.  Let's go ahead and move Paul Brown down to the Bengals front office in the OP I shared.  That changes everything!

Consider this thread closed, conversation over, and the scales balanced.

(05-13-2021, 09:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]

Laugh it up if you like, but it's almost irrefutable that the Bengals draft performance outpaces the size of their scouting staff. We can rightly question and criticize the organization for having such a tiny staff, but we cannot live in a fantasy world where recent Bengals draft history is equivalently "worst". The same tiny staff, for the most part, was among the class of the league drafting the first half of the '10s that has been turds since then.

(05-13-2021, 10:09 PM)JaggedJimmyJay Wrote: [ -> ]Laugh it up if you like, but it's almost irrefutable that the Bengals draft performance outpaces the size of their scouting staff. We can rightly question and criticize the organization for having such a tiny staff, but we cannot live in a fantasy world where recent Bengals draft history is equivalently "worst". The same tiny staff, for the most part, was among the class of the league drafting the first half of the '10s that has been turds since then.

What's absolutely frightening to me is that some of you only equate scouting and analytics to the draft.  Like you have absolutely no concept of pro scouting or anything of the sort.

Regardless of whether or not we've been "the worst", "one of the worst, or even "below average" in the draft alone, there's no arguing with the results on the field.  This is a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in over 30 years.

Fwiw, I laughed again when you put us among the "class of the league" in the early 2010's.  "Class of the league" to our beaten down fan base means top 12.  How sad is that?  You would have thought we would have reeled off a couple of Superbowls and Conference Championships in there but nope, we're such a sad organization that we hold up Wild Card performances like the '91-97 Chicago Bulls.

I'm going to put this as simply as I can:  All of the people you see listed in the OP have a hand in building their respective teams.  And our team has been laughingstock for years.  That's a real big ***** problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP.  No one should be defending the Hader Hardware that is our front office.

(05-13-2021, 10:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]What's absolutely frightening to me is that some of you only equate scouting and analytics to the draft.  Like you have absolutely no concept of pro scouting or anything of the sort.

Regardless of whether or not we've been "the worst", "one of the worst, or even "below average" in the draft alone, there's no arguing with the results on the field.  This is a franchise that hasn't won a playoff game in over 30 years.

Fwiw, I laughed again when you put us among the "class of the league" in the early 2010's.  "Class of the league" to our beaten down fan base means top 12.  How sad is that?  You would have thought we would have reeled off a couple of Superbowls and Conference Championships in there but nope, we such a sad organization that we hold up Wild Card performances like the 91-97 Chicago Bulls.

I'm going to put this as simply as I can:  All of people you see in the OP have a hand in building the entire team.  Our team has been laughingstock for years.  That's a real big ***** problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP.  No one should be defending the Hader Hardware that is our front office.

You're drawing a correlation and showing me nothing whatsoever to connect the contents of the OP to the results on the field. To simply say:

"staff small, win-loss record bad, derrrrrrrr?!?!!"

is not a good point. It's shit.

I even agree that there is a connection between the small staff and the franchise's struggles on the field, but it isn't an easy one to qualify and this thread does a shit job of examining it.