Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(12-02-2023, 09:05 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Belicheck won with backup qbs. Andy Reid has done it.

When.  Neither of them have won anything without a good QB.  Are you including Tom Brady and Matt Cassel in "back up qbs"?

(12-02-2023, 02:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]Watching the film.

There were run plays where one OL did the right block and one did not. Or where Mixon missed the hole in front of him.

Hard to tell with the lack of running plays, but there were a couple. 

Bottom line, you just don't give up on the running game after 8 carries even if it is going for 2 yards a clip.

I don't see how watching players mess up is proof that they are "close to getting it right"

Lot's of fans keep claiming that all you have to do to make a bad running game better is to run more.  But I have never seen any evidence to back up this claim.  There should be some stats somewhere showing that teams with really bad run games can get better just by running more.

When I see a team with a weak running game it is usually just as bad in the 4th quarter than as in the first.

(12-03-2023, 12:24 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see how watching players mess up is proof that they are "close to getting it right"

Lot's of fans keep claiming that all you have to do to make a bad running game better is to run more.  But I have never seen any evidence to back up this claim.  There should be some stats somewhere showing that teams with really bad run games can get better just by running more.

When I see a team with a weak running game it is usually just as bad in the 4th quarter than as in the first.

Yes, this is right. Sometimes if you run more, you rip off a chunk run that can make the numbers look better. However, if your running game is bad, then it is just bad. There is no "establishing" the run game. It either works, or does not. However, there are games where the running starts off slow and finds its way later on which people will use to back up their idea but that is just one of the many game flows that exists.

(12-02-2023, 07:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: [ -> ]LoL, but you left out Stafford as the QB. I guess he's a bum now? We discussed Shanahan and his offense taking a nose dive because Debo Samuel got hurt. That happened. This offense has produced with names like Trenton Irwin, Trent Taylor, Tanner Hudson, CJ Uzomah, etc when Higgins, Chase, and Boyd have missed time. In fact, it played pretty well without JaMarr Chase last year. The key is Joe Burrow. Always has been, always will be. Unless you guys want him out of his comfort zone and under center so he can hand the ball to a middling to below average RB. 

The more I read about this offense and its structure, the more I realize it's really Joe's show. The way he wants it. So either you dislike his ways and the coaches, or you like them. You can't mutually exclude the two.

I left off Stafford because while I don't consider him a bum, I don't consider him one of the top 10 QBs in the league.
He's not Top 10 in QB Rating, pass yards, pass TDs, etc.
He's better than what the Bengals have right now without Burrow though, I'll give you that.

(12-03-2023, 01:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I left off Stafford because while I don't consider him a bum, I don't consider him one of the top 10 QBs in the league.
He's not Top 10 in QB Rating, pass yards, pass TDs, etc.
He's better than what the Bengals have right now without Burrow though, I'll give you that.

He has been hurt and team has been hurt also, he is a top  10  type QB healthy and probably heading to HOF.

(12-01-2023, 07:05 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t want him fired. I want him to hire an OC. He’s a great CEO/leader of men; a subpar offensive mind.

My question to Zac would be, do you think you and Callahan are the best two people available to run the offense? If the answer is no, then why aren’t you getting the best people available to you?

Even in the games where Joe was healthy the offense sputtered for long periods of time. They’d score early and then just disappear for 2 quarters.

(12-02-2023, 11:27 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: [ -> ]I remember the 6-25-1 result without Burrow or whatever horrendous start it was. So yeah Taylor is associated with Burrow's success, won't be able to separate the 2 other than that stat.

So it is “weird” for holding Taylor accountable for a team that does not perform? So it is “weird” for holding Taylor accountable for an offense that is severely under performed with all the talent since he is really the offense coordinator who calls the play. Yes we got to the Super Bowl with him, but the guy hasn’t shown me an ability to adapt to what defenses are giving hm. IF offense is to make Burrow happy, the guy has a quarter million dollars coming his way. Let Taylor be the coach. I don’t see Burrow being that prima Donna and can only hold blame to the reincarnate Dave Shula who is now Taylor. Hell yes he should be fired! There are better options than Taylor.


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(12-03-2023, 05:50 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: [ -> ]So it is “weird” for holding Taylor accountable for a team that does not perform? So it is “weird” for holding Taylor accountable for an offense that is severely under performed with all the talent since he is really the offense coordinator who calls the play. Yes we got to the Super Bowl with him, but the guy hasn’t shown me an ability to adapt to what defenses are giving hm. IF offense is to make Burrow happy, the guy has a quarter million dollars coming his way. Let Taylor be the coach. I don’t see Burrow being that prima Donna and can only hold blame to the reincarnate Dave Shula who is now Taylor. Hell yes he should be fired! There are better options than Taylor.


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There’s no way to disregard the OL play the last several years. If it’s not protection issues it’s a piss poor run game. That doesn’t exonerate him completely. However he beat SF decisively and they may be the best team in the NFL if they beat Philly today. They also beat the Bills. They might have beat the Ravens if Joe is not hurt. They’ve beat SF, KC, Bills, Ravens in 21-22-23 10-5 w/ a very poor line. Certainly the backup QB situation is an issue and the poor run game. But their offensive efficiency was #8 in points per play #8 in both 2021 & 2022. So it’s really false.

(12-03-2023, 12:20 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: [ -> ]When.  Neither of them have won anything without a good QB.  Are you including Tom Brady and Matt Cassel in "back up qbs"?

Tom Brady tore his acl in 2008. Matt cassel was their qb all season and they ended up with an 11-5 season, good enough to make the playoffs. He went on to do nothing as that was his most successful season by far (under Belicheck).

The chiefs have won games with backup qbs without Mahomes.

The ravens made the playoffs with a scrub qb last year, and almost beat us in the playoffs as well.

Good coaches can still salvage a playoff birth with a backup qb.

The Bengals have invested a lot in the oline and have a lot of weapons on offense. Good coaching should allow them to make the playoffs and likely lose in the first round. Do I expect that to happen? No.

What I expect to happen is watching the 9ers vs ravens in the Super Bowl and hopefully the bengals reevaluate what winning football looks like.

(12-03-2023, 08:55 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Tom Brady tore his acl in 2008. Matt cassel was their qb all season and they ended up with an 11-5 season, good enough to make the playoffs. He went on to do nothing as that was his most successful season by far (under Belicheck).

The chiefs have won games with backup qbs without Mahomes.

The ravens made the playoffs with a scrub qb last year, and almost beat us in the playoffs as well.

Good coaches can still salvage a playoff birth with a backup qb.

The Bengals have invested a lot in the oline and have a lot of weapons on offense. Good coaching should allow them to make the playoffs and likely lose in the first round. Do I expect that to happen? No.

What I expect to happen is watching the 9ers vs ravens in the Super Bowl and hopefully the bengals reevaluate what winning football looks like.

Excellent post! A good coach should win with the talent on this team. Zak is not a good coach. However, this organization is too loyal with having low expectations defining successful season such as Marvin Lewis never winning a playoff game or the Piano Man over extended his stay after 20 years. We, as fan, should be pissed the organization has let us down. They have money under the cap. What are they going to do with it?

We are stuck with Dave Shula part 2 for the next three years. I pray Joe stays healthy and we don’t have to count on Zak to do too much like this season.


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(12-03-2023, 08:55 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Tom Brady tore his acl in 2008. Matt cassel was their qb all season and they ended up with an 11-5 season, good enough to make the playoffs. He went on to do nothing as that was his most successful season by far (under Belicheck).

The chiefs have won games with backup qbs without Mahomes.

The ravens made the playoffs with a scrub qb last year, and almost beat us in the playoffs as well.

Good coaches can still salvage a playoff birth with a backup qb.

The Bengals have invested a lot in the oline and have a lot of weapons on offense. Good coaching should allow them to make the playoffs and likely lose in the first round. Do I expect that to happen? No.

What I expect to happen is watching the 9ers vs ravens in the Super Bowl and hopefully the bengals reevaluate what winning football looks like.

The OL despite the investment hasn’t performed. It’s Frank Pollack obviously. The backup QB is not Matt Cassel. What backup replaced Mahomes and how many games? I’ll hang up and listen. If you want to blame Zac & FO for not having a better backup have at it I agree. If you want to blame the entire organization for the OL status have at it. But SF is dominating Philly right now and just a few weeks ago we dominated the 49ers at Levi. So I guess we were trending pretty good. Tyler Huntley wasn’t leading this team with the remaining schedule to the landfill much less the playoffs BTW

(12-03-2023, 08:55 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Tom Brady tore his acl in 2008. Matt cassel was their qb all season and they ended up with an 11-5 season, good enough to make the playoffs. He went on to do nothing as that was his most successful season by far (under Belicheck).

The chiefs have won games with backup qbs without Mahomes.

The ravens made the playoffs with a scrub qb last year, and almost beat us in the playoffs as well.

Good coaches can still salvage a playoff birth with a backup qb.

The Bengals have invested a lot in the oline and have a lot of weapons on offense. Good coaching should allow them to make the playoffs and likely lose in the first round. Do I expect that to happen? No.

What I expect to happen is watching the 9ers vs ravens in the Super Bowl and hopefully the bengals reevaluate what winning football looks like.

The OL despite the investment hasn’t performed. It’s Frank Pollack obviously. The backup QB is not Matt Cassel. What backup replaced Mahomes and how many games? I’ll hang up and listen. If you want to blame Zac & FO for not having a better backup have at it I agree. If you want to blame the entire organization for the OL status have at it. But SF is dominating Philly right now and just a few weeks ago we dominated the 49ers at Levi. So I guess we were trending pretty good.

(12-01-2023, 12:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Seriously, what are we doing? The fire Zach stuff makes our fanbase look incredibly dumb.

The guy has given us more playoff success the past two years than I have had in my ENTIRE lifetime. One Super Bowl appearance, two AFC Championship games, 5 playoff wins. Were we really expecting to go places this year with Browning as our QB? I mean the season is chalked up as a loss as soon as Burrow's ligament exploded. We aren't winning anything with him the same way the Colts weren't winning anything without Peyton Manning.

Is he perfect? No. But no head coach is. People bag on his offense (although they've been REALLY good when Joe is healthy) but...

his offense is a by product of what BURROW likes to do as a QB. It's THEIR offense. It's a collaboration between ZT, Callahan, and Burrow. It won't change unless Burrow want's it to change...and it actually works when Burrow is healthy.

I guess I just don't get why everyone is so emotional and wants to fire ZT all of the sudden. Sure there are some changes that the team needs to make (running the ball better, protecting Joe better, etc.) but firing a coach seems a bit extreme and emotional and weird to me.

Burrow, Anarumo, and two great safeties brought us that success. 

Taylor is 3-24-1 without Burrow. His defining moment in his "legacy" is sucking bad enough to get Burrow and Chase in two consecutive seasons.

(12-02-2023, 01:04 PM)Bing Ghuls Wrote: [ -> ]Sean McVay is 10-18 since last year.

Taylor is 17-10.

They're on the cusp on making the postseason this year.

(12-03-2023, 09:58 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: [ -> ]Burrow, Anarumo, and two great safeties brought us that success. 

Taylor is 3-24-1 without Burrow. His defining moment in his "legacy" is sucking bad enough to get Burrow and Chase in two consecutive seasons.

No he’s not. Do you even really follow this team? What tie has Zac Taylor ever had without Joe Burrow at QB?

(12-03-2023, 10:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]No he’s not. Do you even really follow this team? What tie has Zac Taylor ever had without Joe Burrow at QB?

I mistakenly added a few Ls and forgot the Philly tie was with Burrow in the game. Sue me.

Excuse me for not remenbering every little thing in autistic detail while engaging in a forum casually.

(12-03-2023, 09:38 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]The OL despite the investment hasn’t performed. It’s Frank Pollack obviously. The backup QB is not Matt Cassel. What backup replaced Mahomes and how many games? I’ll hang up and listen. If you want to blame Zac & FO for not having a better backup have at it I agree. If you want to blame the entire organization for the OL status have at it. But SF is dominating Philly right now and just a few weeks ago we dominated the 49ers at Levi. So I guess we were trending pretty good.

I don't want to discount what the Bengals did against the 49ers. We needed the win and we went into there house and took care of business. But let's also realize we caught them at a pretty good time. No Deebo and they seemed to be in a little bit of a slump at the time. The Bengals were playing pretty good. But isn't what all these arguments are about is whether it's Burrow making everyone better and whether a different playcaller could improve his game even more.

And Arizona beat the Steelers, who we lost to. Brock Purdy, who beat the Eagles, was Mr. Irrelevant and third string. We go nowhere without Burrow but into the top ten of the draft.

True that most playoff teams would have an issue getting to the Super Bowl without their starting QB, but the Bengals could realistically not win another game without ours.

(12-03-2023, 10:13 PM)Destro Wrote: [ -> ]And Arizona beat the Steelers, who we lost to. Brock Purdy, who beat the Eagles, was Mr. Irrelevant and third string. We go nowhere without Burrow but into the top ten of the draft.

True that most playoff teams would have an issue getting to the Super Bowl without their starting QB, but the Bengals could realistically not win another game without ours.

THat's the problem.

(12-03-2023, 09:14 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]The OL despite the investment hasn’t performed. It’s Frank Pollack obviously. The backup QB is not Matt Cassel. What backup replaced Mahomes and how many games? I’ll hang up and listen. If you want to blame Zac & FO for not having a better backup have at it I agree. If you want to blame the entire organization for the OL status have at it. But SF is dominating Philly right now and just a few weeks ago we dominated the 49ers at Levi. So I guess we were trending pretty good. Tyler Huntley wasn’t leading this team with the remaining schedule to the landfill much less the playoffs BTW

Dude I had to look up Matt cassel for you. I thought it was Matt Flynn. Brady tore his acl in week 1 in 08’ and the backup took over for the year. They made the playoffs. They also made the playoffs after Brady left for Tampa with the same scrub that’s in there this year. The pats have literally no good players left on that roster and it’s finally caught up to Belicheck.

I think it was heineke that took over for Mahomes a few years ago for a few games, but sorry man—I’m not gunna look it up for you.

The ravens backup started most of the second half of last year for the ravens, the ravens still made the playoffs and almost beat us in the playoffs. If not for that fumble we couldn’t do anything on offense.

Continue to make excuses all you want. Zac needs to do better. He coached two great games this year against the bills and 9ers. Very balanced games. Outside of that we haven’t had much balance and we haven’t done so well. He needs to do it on a weekly basis. Just look at the 9ers. Such a balanced, complete, and well coached team. Ravens too. Yes, any team will have a stinker here and there. But good teams learn and respond.

All I’m saying is Zac needs a more balanced approach that isn’t predictable. We’ve got the personnel to do it—as evidenced of the 9ers/bills games. He just needs to evolve the scheme a little and find more balance. Do that and develop the secondary/defense and next year we’re a lot better and burrow isn’t getting killed.

When you drop back 70% of the time it’s predictable and easy for the defense to tee off on the oline. It increases the risk of injury. A balanced and deceptive attack keeps the defense off balance and creates more space for the offense.its night and day when we come in with a great game plan and when we don’t. 2/11 games isn’t good enough. Elite teams do it just about every week.