Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(02-11-2017, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]. 
 that has had a legitimate shot every season for five straight years

Legitimate shot at what exactly?

(02-11-2017, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ] He has "stuck with Marvin" because he doesn't make quick decisions out of passion...

In 08 or 09 this might have made a little sense, today it's laughable. Bro we're getting ready to start Marvin's 15th season, quick went away a decade ago !
And we're stuck and very stagnant ! "Upward trajectory" ?????? You're watching a different team than me.

0 n 7.

(02-11-2017, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]This is one of those arguments where it is like a Republican trying to tell a Democrat something is different than they see it.  It is probably futile.  And before I start, I am not a relative and not on the payroll. 

Mike Brown wants to win as much as we do, if not more.  He has "stuck with Marvin" because he doesn't make quick decisions out of passion....like the Falcons firing two defensive coaches moments after the Super Bowl.  This is a very intelligent and calculating man.  I believe he didn't fire Marvin because it was one really off year.  A blip on an otherwise positive trajectory.  I don't know if Marvin can ever truly change his stripes and play with the kind of aggression necessary to win a championship, but Mike Brown rightly believes that one year shouldn't take away Marvin's opportunity to finish what he started.   As much as I hate conservative, bad clock management, no in-game adjustment Marv, I and still pulling for the guy to complete the mission.

The city does NOT pay for all the stadium and upgrades.  The city agreed to a slight tax increase to help funding of a new stadium and for improvements over the course of its existence.  Every singly owner in the NFL would do the exact same thing, and Mr. Brown did pay for improvements, enhancements, more scouts, and better coaches (how quickly we forget that the Bengals had one of the highest overall payrolls for coaches when they had Marv, Zim, and Gruden all together.  And he assembled that coaching staff.  He  may be judicious in how he spends his money, but he definitely spends on players that have earned it...there was never a question that our core players would be re-signed and offered fair market value.  The fact that Nelson, Sanu, and Jones left doesn't change that.  The Bengals wisely didn't overpay to keep them, but it should be noted their offers were very close. 

As far as the day to day operations, he does very little any more...this team is primarily run by Marvin, Katie, and Troy.  And with the exception of this past season, they have put a winning team on the field that has had a legitimate shot every season for five straight years and overcome a troublesome decade and the stigma that went with it.

WOW! You certainly have a whole different opinion of Mike Brown than I.

(02-11-2017, 11:12 PM)Derrick Wrote: [ -> ]WOW! You certainly have a whole different opinion of Mike Brown than I.

I'm with you on this as are many of the fans.

I'm sure that on some level Mikey wants to win, but how many wins does he really want and how much does he really want them?

Is one and done 5 straight years good enough? Apparently so.

How about 6-9-1? That seems to be okay with him as no changes are coming during this off season that I can see. I hear talk, but I hear that every year. Talk doesn't mean crap.

(02-09-2017, 10:46 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: [ -> ]You're missing the ultimate problem, Pat....and it's not Marvin Lewis

Yup... Marvin is a part of the problem, but the issue is a little higher up the ladder. The Owner needs to accept he's not his father and get out of the damn way. Hire a staff that isn't family and get shit done.....but...that's not his way.

(02-09-2017, 10:46 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: [ -> ]You're missing the ultimate problem, Pat....and it's not Marvin Lewis

I won't disagree that Mike has been a huge problem for years, but right now Marvin is worse. 

(02-10-2017, 07:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Out of curiosity, who do you believe is the ultimate problem? 

Marv was the one that stuck with Ced O. when he was sucking royal ass...
Marv played ancient, plodding LBs over younger, faster options...
Marv sat Hunt, after he finally made some plays....
Marv ran MJ out there week after week when he was getting less pressure than PAs coaches shorts have in the seat...
Marv kept feeding Hill, when he only had success against Cleveland....

Those are all calls coming from the HC....I don't know who else could have been more at fault for this team's collapse.

This. Beat me to it. 

(02-10-2017, 11:26 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: [ -> ]I had an oppurtunity to speak to a former bengals Safety from the 80s that was part of both super bowl runs.  It's no coincidence as to why/when the bengals franchise took a downward turn. 

In his opinion Marvin Lewis is a Super Bowl caliber coach stuck on a bottom of the barrel franchise.  Hence the mixed results.  

It was kind of nice, and frustrating at the same time, to finally confirm what I had always assumed.  

I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, but Marvin a "super bowl caliber coach"? In what universe is that even possible? Who exactly is your source and how biased are they in Marvin's favor?
Marvin has to be one of the worst (if not the worst) gameday coach in the league. We've all grumbled about his lack of halftime adjustments for years, mostly jokingly I thought. But he flat out confirmed it about a month ago. He's a cluelessness nitwit.

(02-11-2017, 11:38 PM)BengalChris Wrote: [ -> ]I'm with you on this as are many of the fans.

I'm sure that on some level Mikey wants to win, but how many wins does he really want and how much does he really want them?

Is one and done 5 straight years good enough? Apparently so.

How about 6-9-1? That seems to be okay with him as no changes are coming during this off season that I can see. I hear talk, but I hear that every year. Talk doesn't mean crap.

If you want to win,  but only if you insist on doing it your way, which is different and bargain basement compared to everyone else, does that really mean you want to win?  Seems to me that, while he says he wants to win, his actions say otherwise.

(02-10-2017, 07:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Out of curiosity, who do you believe is the ultimate problem? 

Marv was the one that stuck with Ced O. when he was sucking royal ass...
Marv played ancient, plodding LBs over younger, faster options...
Marv sat Hunt, after he finally made some plays....
Marv ran MJ out there week after week when he was getting less pressure than PAs coaches shorts have in the seat...
Marv kept feeding Hill, when he only had success against Cleveland....

Those are all calls coming from the HC....I don't know who else could have been more at fault for this team's collapse.

Do you really believe this team's problems started last year? I agree with your points on Marvin Lewis, but ultimately it's Mike Brown that...

1. Keeps Marv not only employed, but comfortable in his seat.
2. Has favorites that can't be fired, like Paul Alexander - who is more responsible for 6-9-1 than any other coach.
3. Refuses to build a practice facility that the coaches, players and fans want.
4. Refuses to offer much guaranteed money on contracts, which limits the type of players we can sign.
5. Refuses to hold himself or anyone else accountable, which permeates through the entire organization.
6. Makes excuses for mediocre performance rather than demanding excellence.

Marv is a confirmed choker. The guy has proven time and again that he can't get it done. That said, the biggest reason we won't compete for titles now or any time in the foreseeable future is one step up the chain on command.

(02-11-2017, 04:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]It's obvious we should put faith in Mike and Marv. Just look at their results. Do we really want to end up like those scrub Falcons?

To be fair, we don't know what the knee-jerk reaction of kicking those two coaches to the curb will be.  They now have the burden of replacing their OC (who was a BIG part of their success), and a couple defensive coaches.  Much like the Bengals have learned in replacing Zim, Gruden, and Hue...it isn't going to be easy.

I am unsure of who is paying for the Falcons new stadium, but it is going to be a huge bill for someone.  

(02-11-2017, 05:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Slight? It's going to cost county tax payers upwards of a billion dollars. It's the equivalent of the street car, city-wide raises, and about 3-5 school levies. There's nothing slight about it. I would love to hear your definition of "considerate" or "sizeable" in regards to local projects. 

As as increase in their taxes on an individual bases, it was a slight increase.  The total amount is spread over numerous years, and across a large population.  

You also seem to ignore that it was an investment in our community, which led to the Banks project, and a good number of jobs that are sustainable beyond just the construction costs.  

(02-12-2017, 02:03 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]To be fair, we don't know what the knee-jerk reaction of kicking those two coaches to the curb will be.  They now have the burden of replacing their OC (who was a BIG part of their success), and a couple defensive coaches.  Much like the Bengals have learned in replacing Zim, Gruden, and Hue...it isn't going to be easy.

I am unsure of who is paying for the Falcons new stadium, but it is going to be a huge bill for someone.  

Right on. All I was saying is that the Falcons' management has earned more faith than Bengals management.

We've already seen what keeping Marv accomplishes.

(02-11-2017, 05:21 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Except he enjoys what's been called "the greatest stadium deal in the history of sports". Does every owner benefit similarly?  No. And despite this, he still spends significantly less than his peers. Would every owner do that?

So, Jerry Jones made his money in oil, and the Brown family made their money because their father purchased the team way back in the late 60s.  A coach, that put together his resources and purchased his own team. 

Jerry Jones, Arthur Blank, and many other owners have other businesses that made them billionaires...that is not what we have here.  Jerry wanted a stadium that said "my penis is bigger than yours!" and is a showplace for much more than just his team.  He can afford that, the Browns can't.  I will point out that when you all make the Browns out to be money-grubbing parasites that they haven't taken a dime in naming rights, where they could likely get a pretty penny, instead honoring their father, Paul Brown.

As far as "spending significantly less than his peers" goes, can you supply that factual information?  I think he spends close to the salary cap, and honors the contracts of his players (right or wrong, you could argue either way) more than maybe any owner in the NFL.

Calling them cheap, and blaming them for the stadium tax, blah, blah, blah...is just parroting what the older generation has dumped on the Brown family for a while now.  They are angry because they see other teams winning championships and the Bengals continue to struggle.  I get it.  But their anger is misplaced.  The ownership has done a very good job creating a system that has made them competitive for what was five straight playoff appearances.  I think they will be back in the thick of it next year.  I want more, too, but I am not going to spew hatred on the ownership because they haven't won a Super Bowl.  

(02-11-2017, 05:00 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Do you have anything whatsoever to support this claim?  I kinda feel like you just made this up. If im wrong my apologies, but please share. A link would be a great start.

I couldn't find a link to coaches salaries in that year, but I know Marv was paid close to $4.5 million and they were paying each of those assistants over $1 million per year.  I am unsure what PA was paid, but their total coaches salary was clearly up there...and is an excellent example of their willingness to spend when it is warranted.  

(02-12-2017, 01:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Do you really believe this team's problems started last year? I agree with your points on Marvin Lewis, but ultimately it's Mike Brown that...

1. Keeps Marv not only employed, but comfortable in his seat.
2. Has favorites that can't be fired, like Paul Alexander - who is more responsible for 6-9-1 than any other coach.
3. Refuses to build a practice facility that the coaches, players and fans want.
4. Refuses to offer much guaranteed money on contracts, which limits the type of players we can sign.
5. Refuses to hold himself or anyone else accountable, which permeates through the entire organization.
6. Makes excuses for mediocre performance rather than demanding excellence.

Marv is a confirmed choker. The guy has proven time and again that he can't get it done. That said, the biggest reason we won't compete for titles now or any time in the foreseeable future is one step up the chain on command.

1.) So, you think Marv should have been fired in the midst of the 5 consecutive playoff appearances streak.  I was on board with replacing him with Zimmer as well, but I could also see why you wouldn't get rid of Marv.  Only the Bengal team that played the Chargers was remotely the team that they had during the season.  That game was devastating to me.  The defense was pathetic.  Gio fumbles going at the 5 yard line.  Dalton fumbled on a scramble where he dove face-first and wasn't touched...it was awful all the way around.  I wouldn't call Marv comfortable, and the Bengals had a "succession plan" in place with Hue (who I really wanted) and Cleveland swiped him from us.  


2.) I am not a fan of PA, and this is going to sound a bit like Fred, but the guy has had his good years as well.  In 2009, despite Palmer sucking ass, his line helped ignite a running game that we hadn't seen since Rudi Johnson.  I have no idea why they stuck with Ced last year, and it clearly killed them, but I don't put that 100% on PA.  I don't know who made those decisions, but it wasn't the owner.

3.) The Bengals, like the steelers, have a bubbled practice facility at a nearby college that is available to them.  

4.) Where are you getting this about refusing to guarantee money in contracts?  This owner stands behind the contracts more than any other in the NFL.  At least he honors them and doesn't cut players that are overpaid when they underperform. 

5.) The accountability discussion is a broad subject.  Is it Adam Jones, who should be let go?  Is it Marv, for not winning a playoff game?  I get this discussion and there are parts of it that really bother me...like Adam Jones.  But having a succession plan in place for Marv with Hue, I thought was perfect.  You want to honor the guy that helped transform your franchise but you want the new regime to begin to take over.  Cleveland just overwhelmed Hue, and he jumped at that chances.  I will always wonder what could have been, because I really wanted Hue and was hoping somehow Marv would still be a part of it all to get a ring.  

6.) I don't know if I would call it making excuses, but he isn't going to make knee-jerk reactions in to critical decisions.  As a matter of fact, I have never heard the man make an excuse.  He is one of the least visible owners in terms of media appearances and I am just fine with that.  The coach speaks for his team.  The owner is the one who hired him, built the staff around him, and helps decide how to build a team.  We may be frustrated with the lack of a championship, but they have a talented roster that they have assembled and this upcoming draft will be a critical strategy for this team.  

I think they have the right personnel people in place to fill some holes, and create better depth at key areas to keep this team in the mix for years to come.  

People can hate Brown all they want, and you can hate me for defending him, but I see a bright future for the Bengals and this year could be a huge step in the direction of a Championship squad. 

(02-12-2017, 02:50 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]1.) So, you think Marv should have been fired in the midst of the 5 consecutive playoff appearances streak. 

This is where I think most people was kind of on-board with marv before this year. I can, to some degree, understand why they would keep him even with the 0 in the win column to his name in the PO after so many tries. But he didn't last year and that should of been the nail in the coffin. He failed to do what he's proven and expected to do now you pay the consequences. It's stinks of lacking accountability and having a set of expectations that breads a winning culture. It's honestly what you see from them in those big stage's. 

(02-12-2017, 03:15 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: [ -> ]This is where I think most people was kind of on-board with marv before this year. I can, to some degree, understand why they would keep him even with the 0 in the win column to his name in the PO after so many tries. But he didn't last year and that should of been the nail in the coffin. He failed to do what he's proven and expected to do now you pay the consequences. It's stinks of lacking accountability and having a set of expectations that breads a winning culture. It's honestly what you see from them in those big stage's. 

You know it HH. Most of us fans knew extending Marv last year was a huge mistake when he shown he cannot out coach a
good coach in big games. You don't reward this. If they extend Marv again it is the definition of insanity.

Atleast fire the O-line coach that failed to coach up his guys and pretty much tried to get the QB killed with his complacency.

This lack of accountability is blatant.

(02-11-2017, 10:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Mike Brown wants to win as much as we do, if not more.  He has "stuck with Marvin" because he doesn't make quick decisions out of passion....like the Falcons firing two defensive coaches moments after the Super Bowl.  This is a very intelligent and calculating man.  I believe he didn't fire Marvin because it was one really off year.  A blip on an otherwise positive trajectory.  I don't know if Marvin can ever truly change his stripes and play with the kind of aggression necessary to win a championship, but Mike Brown rightly believes that one year shouldn't take away Marvin's opportunity to finish what he started.   As much as I hate conservative, bad clock management, no in-game adjustment Marv, I and still pulling for the guy to complete the mission.

As far as the day to day operations, he does very little any more...this team is primarily run by Marvin, Katie, and Troy.  And with the exception of this past season, they have put a winning team on the field that has had a legitimate shot every season for five straight years and overcome a troublesome decade and the stigma that went with it.

I simply don't agree that Mike Brown wants to win as much, or more, than the fans do. 

This is an owner who watched Dave Shula go 8-24 (5-11, 3-13) in his first two seasons an decided that performance warranted a 2 year extension.

This is the same owner that tried to talk Bruce Coslet into remaining the HC even though they had lost 25 of their previous 30 games, and Coslet had flat out told him that it wasn't working.

This is a owner that still sounded defiant after firing Dick LeBeau - following a franchise worst 2 win season - insisting that things weren't as bad as fans and the media said they were.

There are plenty of other things I could list, but there's nothing about Mike Brown's actions during his tenure that screams "I want to win more than anyone". I'm sure he likes to win. I'm sure he prefers to win. But...I don't think he has ever had any great 'passion' to win. 

Instead, I think he's been incredibly stubborn in the past, wanting to do things 'his way'...even when the results were painfully obvious that his way wasn't working. Doing it 'his way' certainly seemed more important than the actual results.

This is one area where I've always given Marvin credit. He was able to come in, work closely with Katie and then Duke, in a way that demonstrated to Mike that there was a better way. That eventually led to Marvin gaining more control during negotiations after the 2010 season that led to him re-signing. But even during that process, Mike was very stubborn...to the point where Marvin actually walked away from the table at one point.

Mike's role since 2011 has been more limited, and that's a good thing, but again...nothing from 1991-2010 about Mike Brown - the owner or the GM - conveyed a message of "I want to win more than anyone". At least not in my opinion.

I kind of think Hobson reads this board based on some of his wording about how fans feel about things.

(02-12-2017, 04:37 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]I simply don't agree that Mike Brown wants to win as much, or more, than the fans do. 

This is an owner who watched Dave Shula go 8-24 (5-11, 3-13) in his first two seasons an decided that performance warranted a 2 year extension.

This is the same owner that tried to talk Bruce Coslet into remaining the HC even though they had lost 25 of their previous 30 games, and Coslet had flat out told him that it wasn't working.

This is a owner that still sounded defiant after firing Dick LeBeau - following a franchise worst 2 win season - insisting that things weren't as bad as fans and the media said they were.

There are plenty of other things I could list, but there's nothing about Mike Brown's actions during his tenure that screams "I want to win more than anyone". I'm sure he likes to win. I'm sure he prefers to win. But...I don't think he has ever had any great 'passion' to win. 

Instead, I think he's been incredibly stubborn in the past, wanting to do things 'his way'...even when the results were painfully obvious that his way wasn't working. Doing it 'his way' certainly seemed more important than the actual results.

This is one area where I've always given Marvin credit. He was able to come in, work closely with Katie and then Duke, in a way that there was a better way. That eventually led to Marvin gaining more control during negotiations after the 2010 season that led to him re-signing. But even during that process, Mike was very stubborn...to the point where Marvin actually walked away from the table at one point.

Mike's role since 2011 has been more limited, and that's a good thing, but again...nothing from 1991-2010 about Mike Brown - the owner or the GM - conveyed a message of "I want to win more than anyone". At least not in my opinion.

Great post. Sad but true Holic.

Mikey just wants to be competitive, he pretty much says that and it shows in the big games.

The players and especially the fans deserve better.

Marv atleast puts a good team together, he just is not a great coach and there is no accountability here from Mike Brown down.