(03-16-2021, 10:29 AM)Au165 Wrote: This is what I am talking about in terms of them lacking the liquid cash and relying on a heavier year one salary to offset the lack of signing bonus. 

My understanding on signing bonuses is they do not have to paid exactly when they pay on the dotted line. A lot of times an agent sets a date sometimes 6 months or longer depending on what is worked out to have the signing bonus fully paid. 

(03-16-2021, 10:34 AM)spazz70 Wrote: I think I mis typed what i meant...that was pay up front vs spreading it out (cap space)....  I think you are mistaken if you believe that the Bengals do not have the cash to pay a signing bonus up front and spread out the cap hit for future years in this instance.  I believe and agree that I would not guarantee Lawson's contract just on the simple fact that he HAS NEVER BEN HEALTHY, even going back to college.  Missed a year and half in college with ACL and hip injury and the same thing continued in the pros.  Odds are he misses time this year.

I am not mistaken, I follow the finances of the NFL very closely. There is a misconception that all NFL teams are "rich" and that isn't true. While they are highly valued the actual liquidity of each team is vastly different. I am not sure you actually understand how the finances work here as you keep describing "cap hit" as if it is related to cash but it isn't, it is actually more of an accounting term that isn't really tied to actual cash paid in any given year. 

(03-16-2021, 10:37 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: My understanding on signing bonuses is they do not have to paid exactly when they pay on the dotted line. A lot of times an agent sets a date sometimes 6 months or longer depending on what is worked out to have the signing bonus fully paid. 

It can take a little bit of time, but the point is they are paid out in a lump sum versus salary which is paid out in installments and is more manageable from a liquidity standpoint.

(03-16-2021, 10:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: No, you don't "spread out" signing bonuses. Signing bonuses are paid...on signing. The cap hit spreads but that is not the same thing as spreading out cash. Simply put, no the Bengals don't have a ton of liquid cash sitting in the bank somewhere especially after the bonuses paid out last year and coming out of a pandemic year. No, they aren't poor relative to you and me, however, they are most likely hurting for liquid cash and I am telling you the Hendrickson deal was not a coincidence that was out of necessity, and it's why Lawson wasn't retained. 

Why would the Bengals be huring for liquid cash more than any other team?

Fwiw, DJ Reader, Trae Waynes, and Vonn Bell's signing bonuses totalled a combined 34.25 million dollars in 2020.

Not sure how these payouts in 2020 prevent us from being as active as other teams in 2021.  And frankly, I think the idea that we're somehow more hindered by Covid, or by actually signing a few guys in 2020, than normal teams is absolutely absurd.

This is a franchise that has been making, depending on the year and what sources you believe, somewhere between 30-100 million dollars a year in profit.  They've been at it a long, long time.

Do you honestly believe that the organization is out of cash?  Like, they would love to sign some of these guys, but they just don't have the money available in their PNC Business Account to cut a check?

(03-16-2021, 10:38 AM)Au165 Wrote: I am not mistaken at all, I follow the finances of the NFL very closely. There is a misconception that all NFL teams are "rich" and that isn't true. While they are highly valued the actual liquidity of each team is vastly different. I am not sure you actually understand how the finances work here as you keep describing "cap hit" as if it is related to cash but it isn't, it is actually more of an accounting term that isn't really tied to actual cash paid in any given year. 

The key is NFL Owners are rich with big businesses and billions from their primary companies and their nfl team is their playground (tax writeoff). 

Where as here in Cinci, the team is the family business. Responsible for generations of Browns family inheritance. They must stretch inheritance from Paul Brown out for generations. There is no outside source of income for the family (or any of the family members). They don't have a big business they run primarily. Not only are they cash broke in terms of NFL teams cash on hand, they are broke broke thanks to covid, with no where else to pull cash from.

They really shouldn't be allowed to own a team. NFL teams weren't meant to be the family business. If it wasn't for the league financial assistance from shared revenue, they'd really be in trouble.

If they would have tried to buy the Bengals under these circumstances today, Owners would likely not approve of the purchase, but the family is grandfathered in and allowed to be the only mom and pop shop in the league.

(03-16-2021, 10:34 AM)spazz70 Wrote: I think I mis typed what i meant...that was pay up front vs spreading it out (cap space)....  I think you are mistaken if you believe that the Bengals do not have the cash to pay a signing bonus up front and spread out the cap hit for future years in this instance.  I believe and agree that I would not guarantee Lawson's contract just on the simple fact that he HAS NEVER BEN HEALTHY, even going back to college.  Missed a year and half in college with ACL and hip injury and the same thing continued in the pros.  Odds are he misses time this year.

This has always been my worry about Lawson. His injury history is almost as bad as it gets. I really like him though, but I'm guessing we pulled ourselves out of the bidding for him after the Jets went all in with that kind of money. Another thing about Lawson is his DE stats are mostly based off pressures and hits, not sacks. You can pressure Lamar Jackson all day, and he will most likely make you pay for it more often than not. Sacks are stops. Either a loss of yards or no gain. You cant say that for pressures and QB hits. You may hit a QB as he is throwing what ends up being a TD pass, and you still get the QB hit stat. 

(03-16-2021, 10:43 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Do you honestly believe that the organization is out of cash?  Like, they would love to sign some of these guys, but they just don't have the money available in their PNC Business Account to cut a check?

I believe they have a lower cash reserve than they feel comfortable with and are looking to try and preserve cash where they can via structuring contracts in a way that has cash flowing out as it's coming in i.e. salaries. 

(03-16-2021, 10:25 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Me personally?  Cincinnati, no question.

California has the income highest tax rate in the entire country.  Their income tax rate on these multi-million dollar salaries is 13.30%.  Ohio's is 4.80%.

For example, a player making 10 million dollars a year will pay 1.303 million dollars in state income tax living in California.  A player in Ohio will only pay 476k.

And none of these accounts for housing costs, or costs of living either.  2 million dollars in Cincinnati will put you in a mansion in Indian Hill.  2 million dollars in Los Angeles will get you a 3BR, 1.5 bath, 1,500 sq ft house.  $50 a plate in Cincinnati will get you into Jeff Ruby's.  $50 a plate will get you into a rethemed Applebees in LA.

There's a lot reason tons of people are leaving California right now, and not all of it is Covid restrictions, homeless people shitting on your porch, or blue-haired pansexuals protesting the falvor of the day.  A lot of it is money related.
 

First of all I am not going to argue about the tax situation...I was just talking about Southern California in general,  That 16 inches of snow we got over a 2 week period was just awesome last month!!

As far as housing....you are way off....these players do not live in Los Angeles proper.  They live in the burbs just like here in Cincy and the housing costs are a bit different but not to the extremes you are putting up.  How do I know?, I am licensed insurance agent in CA, I do homeowners insurance all the time for the area.

You do realize there are a lot of people in areas in SC that are just like here?  SanFran (which we are not talking about) is all the BS going on that you are talking about.  

Edit....Southern Ca and Northern CA are basically like two different states....FWIW

(03-16-2021, 10:38 AM)Au165 Wrote: I am not mistaken, I follow the finances of the NFL very closely. There is a misconception that all NFL teams are "rich" and that isn't true. While they are highly valued the actual liquidity of each team is vastly different. I am not sure you actually understand how the finances work here as you keep describing "cap hit" as if it is related to cash but it isn't, it is actually more of an accounting term that isn't really tied to actual cash paid in any given year. 

Why would the Bengals be poor? The only thing they pay for is employee salary everything else is given free to them by the City!

(03-16-2021, 10:37 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: My understanding on signing bonuses is they do not have to paid exactly when they pay on the dotted line. A lot of times an agent sets a date sometimes 6 months or longer depending on what is worked out to have the signing bonus fully paid. 

You're right.

Almost always they are paid within the first year, but not always are they immediate.

We have enough money to bring in more help at DE. Depth has also been an issue and we saw that when Hubbard went down. Justin Houston could be a good 1-2 year guy. He's older but has still been productive and would be a good vet presence on the D. He woudnt break the bank.

(03-16-2021, 10:54 AM)bengaloo Wrote: We have enough money to bring in more help at DE. Depth has also been an issue and we saw that when Hubbard went down. Justin Houston could be a good 1-2 year guy. He's older but has still been productive and would be a good vet presence on the D.

I think that will be key. If we can add an additional veteran rusher for the rotation we could see some improvement in the pass-rushing department. Houston is an option, Aldon Smith, Oliver Vernon and Melvin Ingram could all also be older options. 

Kerry Hyder
Solomon Thomas would be good additions.


For interior dl pressure
Sheldon is still out there, as is Quenton Jefferson.


Still some D players available.

(03-16-2021, 11:08 AM)jj22 Wrote: Kerry Hyder
Solomon Thomas would be good additions.


For interior dl pressure
Sheldon is still out there, as is Quenton Jefferson.


Still some D players available.

I like Thomas as a swing DT/DE option. The whole board is available at CB still for the most part. We should be able to improve the defense. 

(03-16-2021, 09:01 AM)Whatever Wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/NextGenStats/status/1371648727589478404

The interesting thing about Next Gen Stats is they are based on GPS tracking information, so no human judgement is involved.

That's the part i like best. 

(03-16-2021, 10:25 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Me personally?  Cincinnati, no question.

California has the income highest tax rate in the entire country.  Their income tax rate on these multi-million dollar salaries is 13.30%.  Ohio's is 4.80%.

For example, a player making 10 million dollars a year will pay 1.303 million dollars in state income tax living in California.  A player in Ohio will only pay 476k.

And none of these accounts for housing costs, or costs of living either.  2 million dollars in Cincinnati will put you in a mansion in Indian Hill.  2 million dollars in Los Angeles will get you a 3BR, 1.5 bath, 1,500 sq ft house.  $50 a plate in Cincinnati will get you into Jeff Ruby's.  $50 a plate will get you into a rethemed Applebees in LA.

There's a lot reason tons of people are leaving California right now, and not all of it is Covid restrictions, homeless people shitting on your porch, or blue-haired pansexuals protesting the falvor of the day.  A lot of it is money related.
 

Apparently you missed the 60 minutes expose on the homeless problem in Ohio and if you think people would mostly choose racist Cincinnati over Santa Barbara or Malibu where  you can go clubbing with blue haired pansexuals all the time, you're an freaky outlier, lol. 

What’s going to happen is Elizabeth Blackburn will write another glowing letter to the fans about how serious they are with winning this year and announce the signing of OL Uagonius Thicket-Suede and Marmadune Shazbot.

(03-16-2021, 10:45 AM)Au165 Wrote: I believe they have a lower cash reserve than they feel comfortable with and are looking to try and preserve cash where they can via structuring contracts in a way that has cash flowing out as it's coming in i.e. salaries. 

If this is true, then the way they handled this whole free agency period is terrible. 


1. They should have just franchised Lawson. Sure they saved 3.5M against the cap but they could have used what liquidity they have in pursuit of another player like Zeitler. It appears that they gave Hendrickson a 10M signing bonus. Baltimore structured Zeitler's contract the way we talked about on the other thread. 1M base 9M signing with a lot of guaranteed money. I had him at 3/21. They would have saved nearly the 3.5M cap back on Zeitler. 

2. They should have been attacking other players in the 5-8 M range with higher guaranteed money in later seasons instead of paying big signing bonuses. I frankly do not understand why they are so hardcore with that since they seem to let everyone play out their contract anyway. KirkPatrick being an exception to the rule.

3. If they don't have the liquidity to stretch the cap for this season, there is no reason why they should not have cut Bernard, Uzomah, Atkins, and Hart saving them 25M toward the cap and found roster upgrades elsewhere.

4. They should not have come out with all this talk that they were going to make huge improvements to the roster in free agency.

5. They should have restructured Boyd in a deal where they are paying his bonus during the season since they have him under contract anyway which would have saved another 5M towards the cap. 

(03-16-2021, 11:28 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: If this is true, then the way they handled this whole free agency period is terrible. 


1. They should have just franchised Lawson. Sure they saved 3.5M against the cap but they could have used what liquidity they have in pursuit of another player like Zeitler. It appears that they gave Hendrickson a 10M signing bonus. Baltimore structured Zeitler's contract the way we talked about on the other thread. 1M base 9M signing with a lot of guaranteed money. I had him at 3/21. They would have saved nearly the 3.5M cap back on Zeitler. 

2. They should have been attacking other players in the 5-8 M range with higher guaranteed money in later seasons instead of paying big signing bonuses. I frankly do not understand why they are so hardcore with that since they seem to let everyone play out their contract anyway. KirkPatrick being an exception to the rule.

3. If they don't have the liquidity to stretch the cap for this season, there is no reason why they should not have cut Bernard, Uzomah, Atkins, and Hart saving them 25M toward the cap and found roster upgrades elsewhere.

4. They should not have come out with all this talk that they were going to make huge improvements to the roster in free agency.

5. They should have restructured Boyd in a deal where they are paying his bonus during the season since they have him under contract anyway which would have saved another 5M towards the cap. 

I believe it is probably what we talked about in another thread. I think they overestimated their cap against that of the rest of the league and when it became clear they were not in the financially dominant position they thought they were they got caught in no man's land. 

(03-16-2021, 10:45 AM)Au165 Wrote: I believe they have a lower cash reserve than they feel comfortable with and are looking to try and preserve cash where they can via structuring contracts in a way that has cash flowing out as it's coming in i.e. salaries. 

That makes for some interesting scenarios. I’d like to know what amount the brown family would feel comfortable with as a reserve.

Should COVID drag out longer than expected would they consider selling some shares, or even outright?

I don’t see them getting a sweet heart deal on the next stadium go around either.


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