(03-23-2021, 03:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So Reif was not an upgrade over Hart?

I was one of the people who said Hart was not the trash everyone claimed he was, but even I admit that Reif, and established solid LEFT tackle is an upgrade over Hart.

If you considered tackle the biggest issue on the line (I didn't). 

(03-23-2021, 01:58 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I don't see that they are but would love to hear from those more knowledgeable than me on this board.

Subjective....  If just comparing stats /duribility   we might have gotten better.     

But until we see how the new talent fits into out systems with our coaches we wont have any idea if we had a net gain or loss.

(03-23-2021, 03:59 PM)jj22 Wrote: If you considered tackle the biggest issue on the line (I didn't). 

Correct all 3 interior spots needed to be addressed.   

(03-23-2021, 01:58 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I don't see that they are but would love to hear from those more knowledgeable than me on this board.

 If I was running a company that was awful the last 4 years.  I would get out the executioner chopping block.  Heads would roll.  People would be handed their cardboard box to clean out their lockers.  New people would be brought in.  I would set Monthly Goals and March is not too early to set Monthly Goals.  People have to be chewed out and told Bengals Football is NOT acceptable.  Time to Get With It.  You are either The Problem or The Solution.  If we turn this around, there are Perks and Rewards to putting in a Winning Effort. We must Get Bengals Football to an Acceptable Level. The biggest room in the world, is the room for improvement.  We are not just going to Work Harder, We are going to Work Smarter also.  We are going to get all the losing Bad Habits OUT.  IF WE TURN THIS AROUND, WINNING CAN BE FUN, and then Being A Bengal CAN BE FUN. I'm all for Front Office and Coaches setting Monthly Goals for themselves and Players, and IF those goals are reached, they do something nice to celebrate that months goals achieved. Nothing wrong with MOTIVATION. Good Work Rewarded, Bad Work could get you Fired. This is not High School or College, This is a job that feeds the wife and kids, and if you don't want Bengals job, there are thousands who do.

So Yes, as awful as Bengals have been since 2017,  Change, Change and More Change until they Fix This Mess.   Put ME down for ALL IN on off season Changes.  and the old baseball owner line, I think the old White Sox, " IF I CAN LOSE WITH YOU, I CAN LOSE WITHOUT YOU ". That really does make sense. When losing every year, Do NOT be afraid of change. Man the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

(03-23-2021, 04:03 PM)kevin Wrote:  If I was running a company that was awful the last 4 years.  I would get out the executioner chopping block.  Heads would roll.  People would be handed their cardboard box to clean out their lockers.  New people would be brought in.  I would set Monthly Goals and March is not too early to set Monthly Goals.  People have to be chewed out and told Bengals Football is NOT acceptable.  Time to Get With It.  You are either The Problem or The Solution.  If we turn this around, there are Perks and Rewards to putting in a Winning Effort. We must Get Bengals Football to an Acceptable Level. The biggest room in the world, is the room for improvement.  We are not just going to Work Harder, We are going to Work Smarter also.  We are going to get all the losing Bad Habits OUT.  IF WE TURN THIS AROUND, WINNING CAN BE FUN, and then Being A Bengal CAN BE FUN.

So Yes, as awful as Bengals have been since 2017,  Change, Change and More Change until they Fix This Mess.   Put ME down for ALL IN on off season Changes. 

YEs change is always better except when you change from good to bad      

(03-23-2021, 04:01 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Correct all 3 interior spots needed to be addressed.   

It showed some improvement with Spain they were able to beat the Steelers. And we just got him back. Hopkins is serviceable and we still have the draft. Unless there is an injury we will have a better o line. Maybe not the all pro line people were calling for. Which I never see in the NFL anyways. And even Dallas couldn't win a playoff game with it. 

(03-23-2021, 03:47 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If its anyone on this boards opinion vs the guys at PFF's opinion...im rolling with the guys at PFF all day. 

You sure about that?

I say Dalton was better in 2015 than in 2018.

PFF says he was better in 2018 than in 2015.

If you figure your O line, right now, is Williams/XSF/Hopkins/Spain/Reiff then you really can't argue the line is improved over last year. How much can be argued, and if it's enough, but it is better. I think it gives flexibility for the draft.

(03-23-2021, 03:30 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Admittedly, I graded out downgrades much more harshly than many would. If you want to call Awuzie a -1 and Trey a -1, I wouldn't object to those.

I would grade Awuzie even and Trey a +1 myself, but hey, we will see how these guys pan out.

(03-23-2021, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Please tell me this is a typo.

2020 Atkins had a grand total of one tackle for the entire season.



Can't call it a loss when Lawson can't stay on the field?

I'd say on production alone Hendrickson looks like an upgrade.  Here are their numbers last year in "snaps per".  In other words the lower the number the better

Lawson............  20.1 tkl....  131.5 sack.....  180.8 TFL....  22.6 QBHit
Hendrickson.....  25.4 tkl....    41.3 sack....    46.5 TFL.....  22.3 QBhit

I've already addressed Lawson vs Hendrickson. I think the pressures and actual film support Lawson as the better individual pass rusher, even if 

Regarding Atkins, I guess I still have a soft spot for Atkins and would like to believe he'd rebound in 2021 at least to some degree. But you're right, if we're comparing only 2020 numbers, then it's probably a +4 if not a +5. If we're comparing their expected (or hoped for) production in 2021, I think it's closer to the +2 or +3.

(03-23-2021, 03:34 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'd say no.

The goal of the offseason was to protect Burrow. And the weakness of the line was the interior, and we did nothing. Now he'll have a bunch of rookies in front of him.

A fail by all accounts by the FO own stated goals.

But they signed some players to distract fans from the fact they will fail to protect Burrow once again, as we signed a bunch of non oline players last offseason and failed to plan to protect the new QB (and you see where that got us for those grading this offseason favorably).

I did want Guards in FA, this is my main complaint if I have one. Bring in Spain and Trai Turner (if he is healthy) and I will be 
much happier in regards to the interior. OT is deep in this Draft, sure there are some good Guards to be had in Carman and 
Meinerz in the 2nd to 3rd but it is just not as deep at Guard as it is at Tackle.

Gonna have to get a versatile OT or two that can play Guard might be the thought process.

(03-23-2021, 04:13 PM)Au165 Wrote: If you figure your O line, right now, is Williams/XSF/Hopkins/Spain/Reiff then you really can't argue the line is improved over last year. How much can be argued, and if it's enough, but it is better. I think it gives flexibility for the draft.

eh, Yes Reiff over Hart is an improvement.

But Hopkins will most likely take a step back. And if Price has to fill in, that's not good.

You have to start one of the o-line draft picks in 2021

Like Sewell at LG or something

Spain is in - we’re halfway there.

(03-23-2021, 04:07 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: YEs change is always better except when you change from good to bad      

Since Bengals were NOT good and have NOT been good in many years,  WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR, BUT FEAR ITSELF. 

(03-23-2021, 04:22 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: eh, Yes Reiff over Hart is an improvement.

But Hopkins will most likely take a step back. And if Price has to fill in, that's not good.

You have to start one of the o-line draft picks in 2021

Like Sewell at LG or something

XSF over Jordan is an improvement as well as it currently stands.

I think these moves are putting us in a position to take the trade back at 5. Filling in gaping holes with at least serviceable options creates flexibility to finds value in the draft. 

(03-23-2021, 03:27 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: When I looked at them, I came to the conclusion that about 6 of his sacks were coverage/clean up sacks. But I did note that sacks 1, 5, 13 and 14 were either created by a blitz, by another defensive player making a play that extended the play enough for him to get there or a play where the entire Oline crumbled, so he got there along with 2 or 3 other players. So I imagine that is where the 10 sack number came from.

It's true that a "clean up sack" is very subjective, but I think the point is that, in a defense where he won't have nearly as much help as he did in New Orleans, there is a concern about whether he can produce for himself.

Well that should be the case, you can't expect ONE guy to make all the plays. That's why Lawson didn't have the sack numbers either. The Line needs to work together. 

As for the Saints. Jordan, M.Brown, Onyemata were his main stable mates. Rankins filled in as their 3rd DT, and they had several other DEs rotate in Davenport being the big name one.

Reader can be every bit of M.Brown and more if healthy. LO can hopefully give us what Onyemata did , and then the big one we need production from Hubbard, Kareem or someone in the draft to help with what Jordan gave (which is a HUGE ask because the dude is an ALL Pro and one of the top 5 DEs in football).

(03-23-2021, 04:23 PM)Joelist Wrote: Spain is in - we’re halfway there.

Thats AWESOME news.

(03-23-2021, 04:03 PM)kevin Wrote:  " IF I CAN LOSE WITH YOU, I CAN LOSE WITHOUT YOU ".  That really does make sense.

Actually it makes zero sense unless your goal is too lose.

Otherwise you would be in favor of trading Burrow, Bates, and Higgins for draft picks.

It is ridiculous to try and judge individual players by what the team did.

(03-23-2021, 04:28 PM)Fulcher_33 Wrote: Well that should be the case, you can't expect ONE guy to make all the plays. That's why Lawson didn't have the sack numbers either. The Line needs to work together. 

As for the Saints. Jordan, M.Brown, Onyemata were his main stable mates. Rankins filled in as their 3rd DT, and they had several other DEs rotate in Davenport being the big name one.

Reader can be every bit of M.Brown and more if healthy. LO can hopefully give us what Onyemata did , and then the big one we need production from Hubbard, Kareem or someone in the draft to help with what Jordan gave (which is a HUGE ask because the dude is an ALL Pro and one of the top 5 DEs in football).

With the way Hubbard worked on stopping the run last Offseason and became #1 in the league at this I am not counting it
out of the question that Hubbard really works his ass off this Offseason on his pass rush and becomes great. Who knows?

I love Hubbard's work ethic, he just needs to stay healthy. But yeah, Cam Jordan is great already. Big damn shoes.

(03-23-2021, 04:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: With the way Hubbard worked on stopping the run last Offseason and became #1 in the league at this I am not counting it
out of the question that Hubbard really works his ass off this Offseason on his pass rush and becomes great. Who knows?

I love Hubbard's work ethic, he just needs to stay healthy. But yeah, Cam Jordan is great already. Big damn shoes.

I am 100% on board with hoping that is the case. Nothing would be more exciting for us to see Hubbard shine