(03-29-2021, 02:36 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So now the belief is our line is fine cause we signed Reiff and that Burrow was the issue?

I'm.... stunned.

At the end of the season there was no one on this board that wasn't screaming about how bad the line was. There was a huge debate about needing to lose the remaining games to get the #2 pick to be certain we got Sewell cause that was what we needed.

Now... we approach the draft and it's like Groundhog's Day here.

We deflect from the real issue. Get obsessed with shiny new toys. And think that depth pieces will develop into Pro-Bowl level starters.

This is why Mike Brown is a successful businessman. All he has to do is sacrifice an assistant coach and make one actual upgrade on the line and the fan base thinks all is well.

That is not why he is a successful business man. He’s successful because he has amassed a fortune. He was able to take a semi protected business and maximize it due to popularity of the sport and strong arming the city to keep him here.

His postseason success would render him as a failure.


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(03-29-2021, 02:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "This team" had not found talent on the D-line in the draft for many years before we selected Hubbard.

It is ridiculous to say it is impossible for us to find talent in the first two rounds at O-line.  In fact I can still remember when guys like you guaranteed that the Bengals would never even use a first round pick on an OG or TE.

I tend to not make guarantees when it comes to the Bengals since they have the ability to do the dumbest things possible...

Also... Hubbard was in 2018. Lawson was in 2017, so... clearly that is two in a row with mid round talent on the D-Line.

Also, 2016 was Andrew Billings... who was a nice addition... 

So... yeah, we have found D-line talent.



I also like how you literally ignored the real question.

How do you build a line?

10 years of no talent drafted on the O-line except for 2 1st rounders, Zeitler and Williams.

Waiting for an answer on how you fix a line if you can't use the #5 pick, can't hit after round 1 and won't sign top guys in FA.

(03-29-2021, 02:38 PM)Beaker Wrote: On the other side of the coin there are those who are upset no matter what the FO does.

I just once... just once, would like to see a commitment to winning around here. 

This running in place and playing the shell game of blame the coach, then fire the player, find the free agent, now fire the other coach, here's a new draft pick, whoops he's going bust, sign a washed up veteran, write a fluff piece, blame it on injuries, rinse and repeat.


It's just so hard to be a fan of this team some times.

(03-28-2021, 08:20 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: I think the Bengals actually have a plan and that they seem to be sticking to it no matter all the “chicken littles” that are the sad fanbase.

I was on the old board in the ‘90’s and gave up with daily assault of negative thread after thread.  Life’s too short for that.

So you gave up with all the negativity and start your thread off calling fans "chicken littles"?  Yeah... that makes sense.


Those chicken littles have valid points not believing the Bengals are "turning" it around with the product they've shown on the field these past 4+ years with two different coaches, until they do chicken little away...

Joe Burrow is the man and the future of our team, but this offensive line is going to need a hell of an improvement if you even want to give Burrow a chance to succeed and stay healthy. Pollack is a great offseason pickup but he's no miracle worker and the majority of the offensive line are not "starter" material. Guys like Spain are good depth guys but we need an overhaul on the line. Till that happens things will look the same they always have.

(03-29-2021, 02:47 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: It's just so hard to be a fan of this team some times.

Sometimes is putting it mildly buddy!

(03-29-2021, 02:43 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Waiting for an answer on how you fix a line if you can't use the #5 pick, can't hit after round 1 and won't sign top guys in FA.

I answered your question.  Use the draft.  It is possible.  

Did using the #9 overall pick on Ross prove that we could not draft WRs?

Plus this coaching staff only has two drafts to judge it by.  They do a major portion of the player evaluation in our system.

(03-29-2021, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Reading is not as important as knowing basic facts.

Jonah played zero snaps in 2019.  So he was new to the lineup in 2020.

Educate yourself.

We already knew about Williams was coming back when we were calling for OLine help last offseason.... And we were talking last offseason about help needed in addition to Williams. Not sure what you (or your peanut gallery) are trying to spin here when I talk about last offseason similar lack of addition to the line when we all knew it was needed. But you've struck out and now and just bickering with the ump.

But I'm not listening to you guys telling us again that it will all be okay with the development of late the additions to the line. Mocking those of us who have the audacity to not be fooled twice. We've read that script before and I'm not as interested in the end results as you guys.

(03-29-2021, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I answered your question.  Use the draft.  It is possible.  

Did using the #9 overall pick on Ross prove that we could not draft WRs?

Plus this coaching staff only has two drafts to judge it by.  They do a major portion of the player evaluation in our system.

Got it.. keep doing the same thing we've been doing and hope the results are different.

Good plan.

(03-29-2021, 04:04 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Got it.. keep doing the same thing we've been doing and hope the results are different.

Good plan.

Better than your plan of just refusing to use our first round picks because they are 100% useless.

I guess you are pissed that we used our #2 pick on a WR last year because we had failed on the Ross pick, correct.  That is the exact same logic you are using now.

I like Tevin Jenkins in the 2nd.

(03-29-2021, 04:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Better than your plan of just refusing to use our first round picks because they are 100% useless.

I guess you are pissed that we used our #2 pick on a WR last year because we had failed on the Ross pick, correct.  That is the exact same logic you are using now.

Umm... let's see nowhere did I say not to use the first round pick... I said we literally need to spend pick 5 on Sewell... Not sure what confused you.

My plan is to use the high draft pick on the best player at a position of need... as in Sewell. Not settle for round 2 or 3 projects with flaws.

My plan would be to spend the money to get a Thuney like player. I don't want to hear about cap issues, the Chiefs were in cap hell and are still signing people, you just have to want to win and want to be a championship franchise. 

I'm super excited we used the round 2 pick on a guy like Higgins last season, it shows that we don't need to use 5 on Chase, as we can find really great WR talent in later rounds.

How are you so confused Fred? I mean more so then usual here.

(03-29-2021, 04:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Umm... let's see nowhere did I say not to use the first round pick... I said we literally need to spend pick 5 on Sewell... Not sure what confused you.

My plan is to use the high draft pick on the best player at a position of need... as in Sewell. Not settle for round 2 or 3 projects with flaws.

My plan would be to spend the money to get a Thuney like player. I don't want to hear about cap issues, the Chiefs were in cap hell and are still signing people, you just have to want to win and want to be a championship franchise. 

I'm super excited we used the round 2 pick on a guy like Higgins last season, it shows that we don't need to use 5 on Chase, as we can find really great WR talent in later rounds.

How are you so confused Fred? I mean more so then usual here.

Even Sewell has flaws. Thats why they stopped making his bust 
For the HOF last week.

(03-28-2021, 08:20 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: Fact: 2020 was an absolute train wreck for the o-line.  Injuries, poor performance, a dearth of confidence and week-to-week an absence of continuity or chemistry nor any semblance that was even the goal.  Survival was the apparent goal.

But the Bengals have quietly rebuilt their offensive line.

Consider, that 4 players who never played for Pollack and didn’t even have a snap in 2019 make up 60% of their likely starters for 2021:
XSF - 5  starts (58 career)
Spain - 8 starts (74 career)
Jonah - 10 starts (10 career)
Reiff - 0 starts (127 career)

The 4 lineman account for just 23 starts in 2020 for the Bengals.  For practical purposes, they’re NEWCOMERS. To a man, they were hardly a part of the train wreck that led to the downfall of last season and the disastrous injury to JB.

Add veteran Hopkins 15 starts (52 career) and you have what could only be described as a veteran-laden average-average line.  Only Jonah has a modicum of upside (and quite a bit). Nonetheless, after last year, I’ll take it ALL DAY LONG. A total of 321 career NFL starts!

Add to that Sewell (or maybe Slater, Vera-Tucker, Jenkins should they trade out of #5) or a Day 2 pick who likely plays RG until he moves to RT in 2022.  Add a possible later round pick as an IOL and I think the Bengals actually have a plan and that they seem to be sticking to it no matter all the “chicken littles” that are the sad fanbase.

I think JB is perfectly well aware of what this team is doing and he is totally on board.

As for the future, this years abundance of quality lineman deep into the draft should nab them at least two, Adeniji, FJ, Jordan, Price (no matter how they look today) and there is reason for optimism for the future as well.  

I was on the old board in the ‘90’s and gave up with daily assault of negative thread after thread.  Life’s too short for that. The reason I’m back now is how confident I am in JB to turn the corner for this franchise.  YMMV.

Nice thread CG.

When you put it that way the O-line is getting revamped. I think with an entire Offseason while adding Pollack and a couple 
more players in the Draft we might be more than okay here. I know a lot of guys are really worried still but there is more 
work to do on the Line and we can do this in the Draft. Very deep at Tackle, it isn't Sewell or bust like some are acting.

Plus who knows if some good Guards are released? Could still happen and we pick one up.

(03-29-2021, 04:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: How are you so confused Fred? I mean more so then usual here.

Gee, I don't know.  You tell me.

(03-29-2021, 04:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Umm... let's see nowhere did I say not to use the first round pick.

(03-29-2021, 01:47 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Can't use pick 5

(03-29-2021, 02:43 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Waiting for an answer on how you fix a line if you can't use the #5 pick, 

(03-29-2021, 05:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Gee, I don't know.  You tell me.

That is because you have said not to use that pick!!! I'm completely all in on taking Sewell or Slater at 5. You are the one saying not to go OL at 5, so... 

I'm asking you... how do you plan to fix the line when you FredToast have been against using pick 5 on OL.

And history shows you FredToast, that for 10 years we can't find O-line players outside of round 1.

And then you have the reality that we don't sign the top FA players for the O-line.

So... how are you fixing the O-line Fred... I'm asking you with the facts of not being able to develop late round picks and not being active in FA and you saying you wouldn't use pick 5.

(03-29-2021, 05:15 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is because you have said not to use that pick!!!

Now you are the one who is confused.

Trey Hopkins, Quinton Spain, and Riley Reiff are 3 solid veteran linemen that are average to above average. Jonah Williams will be going into his second year playing coming off a solid rookie year. That is 4 offensive linemen that all have experience and are good football players.

The other guard spot and the depth is the big question. Day 2 and early Day 3 will have a few different options for the Bengals to explore. 

Dillion Radunz and D'Ante Smith are a couple of my favorite prospects for the Bengals. Radunz is a G/T prospect that will fit well in a wide zone. He will be able to compete his rookie year for that final guard spot with XSF and Hakeem Adeniji. D'Ante Smith will likely go in the 4th as a developmental Tackle. Smith has the size, length, and athletisim teams covet but will need a year to get stronger and develop into a possible starter or the very important backup swing tackle.

(03-29-2021, 07:04 PM)Synric Wrote: Trey Hopkins, Quinton Spain, and Riley Reiff are 3 solid veteran linemen that are average to above average. Jonah Williams will be going into his second year playing coming off a solid rookie year. That is 4 offensive linemen that all have experience and are good football players.

The other guard spot and the depth is the big question. Day 2 and early Day 3 will have a few different options for the Bengals to explore. 

Dillion Radunz and D'Ante Smith are a couple of my favorite prospects for the Bengals. Radunz is a G/T prospect that will fit well in a wide zone. He will be able to compete his rookie year for that final guard spot with XSF and Hakeem Adeniji. D'Ante Smith will likely go in the 4th as a developmental Tackle. Smith has the size, length, and athletisim teams covet but will need a year to get stronger and develop into a possible starter or the very important backup swing tackle.

True, but Hopkins may not be 100% when the year starts coming off his injury.  Spain was pretty good last year, but that may just seem that way because of the awful play there in previous years.

The interior line still needs work and the tackle spots are manned by a guy that can't seem to play a full season and a 31 year old vet.  OT is still a pretty big need as far as I'm concerned.  The lack of talent is still pretty obvious.

(03-29-2021, 07:04 PM)Synric Wrote: Trey Hopkins, Quinton Spain, and Riley Reiff are 3 solid veteran linemen that are average to above average. Jonah Williams will be going into his second year playing coming off a solid rookie year. That is 4 offensive linemen that all have experience and are good football players.

The other guard spot and the depth is the big question. Day 2 and early Day 3 will have a few different options for the Bengals to explore. 

Dillion Radunz and D'Ante Smith are a couple of my favorite prospects for the Bengals. Radunz is a G/T prospect that will fit well in a wide zone. He will be able to compete his rookie year for that final guard spot with XSF and Hakeem Adeniji. D'Ante Smith will likely go in the 4th as a developmental Tackle. Smith has the size, length, and athletisim teams covet but will need a year to get stronger and develop into a possible starter or the very important backup swing tackle.

Thanks for this as I haven't studied up on either Radunz or D'Ante Smith.

I still am liking Jackson Carman and Meinerz in the 2nd or 3rd as well if we go Guard.

Creed Humphrey or Dickerson would be great if we want a Center.

(03-29-2021, 10:36 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Never under estimate what a,good oline coach can do for a unit.
Turner is no scapegoat. He just flatout cannot coach up a oline to be dominant or at least
Be on the same page. 
Look at his resume. What olines under his watch have been considered well coached?
Thats what when he,was shown the door teams were lining up for his oline expertise, right?
No he is he drinking his Sam Adams Lager today waiting for a call from anyone dumb 
Enough to hire his Sgt.Carter antics

If 1st RDs picks were everything how come Paul Alexander was 1 and done in Dallas?
Talent is nothing without coaching in the NFL.

I bet you anything Brian Callahan got a bit of wisdom from his dad  who is oline coach
In Cleveland and passed it to ZT about overhauling the oline.

Can anyone name me how many 1st RD picks the highest graded oline in the league.
Its 1. 
The Browns have Jedrick Willis.thats the 1st RDer
Bitonio is a 2nd RD from 2 regimes ago. Tretter is FA from GB. Wyatt Teller the best OG in the NFL
was a afterthought in a trade. 
And Jack Conklin a FA from the Titans.
But they only got to that level cause,of the arrival of Bill Callahan. 
The Browns in 2020-added 2 new pieces plus the coach....boom. Best oline in the NFL
Then in the Steelers playoff win they had a no name start at RG for Bitonio. 
Didnt miss a beat up front.

Thats coaching folks.

So much wrong here it’s unbelievable. I’ll try to make it brief but will fail.

PA didn’t get 1 and done. He was fired after 7 games. His pass pro sets are very different than FP. Sometimes the proverbial 2 steps back before 1 step forward. Jerry Jones panicked. Now that line is on its slow downfall from it’s peak. What did they accomplish? Stat padding and nothing else. Pity.

BC is one of my top 5 o-line coaches. But the Browns drafted one 1st round tackle and added another via FA last year. They were gangbusters in a wide zone scheme which suited their personnel more than their last coach James Campen but their pass blocking was MOR. I’m not a PFF guy. I prefer Football Outsiders. They were far from the best line in football overall by FO standards.

The Steelers and a backup guard. How oh how did the Browns beat them. Same reason we did with our backups - they were a shell of their former selves after all the injuries across both sides of the ball. Not rocket science.

And now Jim Turner and his resume. I frankly don’t know what you are talking about here. Here is is something of a complete resume:

Went to Boston College. Graduated. Named Captain his senior year (back when there were only two).

Instead of going straight into coaching he found himself in the Marines. Went to Desert Storm as a infantry officer.

Came back, got into coaching. Started at the HS level and then small college and then his big break - his alma matter BC. There he coached not one but two NFL first round picks.

That led to a streak of hires at Texas A&M under 3 different coaches in multiple years. 3 more NFL 1st rounders (the number of coaches who can say the coached 5 1st rounders is very minute). A Heisman and a finalist for a Joe Moore award. There was even a time he was the highest paid position coach in college football.

In between, there was a stint that ended infamously. The two years were hardly a ding on his coaching ability, however. Far from it. He was dealt with a raw, raw rookie Ryan Tannelhill. Reggie Bush for 1 year and rookie Lamar Miller for another. Brian Hartline, Davonne Bess, Mike Wallace, Charles Clay, Rishard Matthews were some of the receivers. Basically the worst collection of skill players in the NFL at the time.
Yet he coached veteran Ritchie Cognito and Mike Pouncey to their first Pro-Bowls.

And no, he has not at home drinking Sam Adams. He was a finalist for the Tennessee Vol’s job and ended up at Texas State. He will undoubtedly get a power 5 job next year. His resume is about as good as they come by his talentless and injury riddled 2 years with the Bengals notwithstanding.

I much prefer FP but that’s because I am a big fan of the wide zone scheme and not because I feel JT is some incompetent dope.