(04-03-2021, 03:06 AM)Fichidius Wrote: That was a somewhat interesting read. It's very contrary to popular opinion.
According to the article every good play Chase had against good teams was the result of illegal pick/rub plays or Jefferson/CEH somehow getting him open. Said watching Chase just made it obvious how much better Jefferson and Clyde Edwards-Helaire are than Chase. Said there wasn't a single play by Chase that made him say "wow".
The article writer also thought he would not be a good athlete (said all of his physical attributes are meh) and that he should skip his pro day because his measurements wouldn't be any good. Has no vertical ability and would be 4.5+ in the 40 yard dash. They were dead on for his 3-cone though saying it would be +-7.00 which is exactly what he ran though. They couldn't have been more wrong about rest with him testing like a 99th percentile athlete.
Ends the article saying Chase should be a 3rd or 4th round pick at best.
"My one sentence scouting summary – Ja’Marr Chase is not special." - R.C. Fisher (the author of the article)
(04-03-2021, 03:06 AM)Fichidius Wrote: That was a somewhat interesting read. It's very contrary to popular opinion. According to the article every good play Chase had against good teams was the result of illegal pick/rub plays or Jefferson/CEH somehow getting him open. Said watching Chase just made it obvious how much better Jefferson and Clyde Edwards-Helaire are than Chase. Said there wasn't a single play by Chase that made him say "wow".
The article writer also thought he would not be a good athlete (said all of his physical attributes are meh) and that he should skip his pro day because his measurements wouldn't be any good. Has no vertical ability and would be 4.5+ in the 40 yard dash. They were dead on for his 3-cone though saying it would be +-7.00 which is exactly what he ran though. They couldn't have been more wrong about rest with him testing like a 99th percentile athlete.
Ends the article saying Chase should be a 3rd or 4th round pick at best.
"My one sentence scouting summary – Ja’Marr Chase is not special." - R.C. Fisher (the author of the article)
It seemed like he was just being salty... but I watched this clip, it's Chase vs Florida. His big play is not really him, as much as a brilliant play design to get him open, using the RB and defender to create space.
I'm not trying to kick a hornets nest or be all negative but, for all the hype about... "Ohhh you gotta get Chase... and he's generational." Against a good defense, he looked like a good WR... but not superman that everyone is hyping him to be. Saw him blanketed on several plays.
I do love his fight after the catch and breaking tackles, that is nice to see.
But his first touchdown, he's covered, there is no separation from the CB. That is a perfect ball from Burrow for that score. It's around the 50 second mark in the video. And all I hear from people on this board is how we need a WR that can create separation. I saw 2 catches where Chase created separation with great routes and one where the play design created it. Outside of that, I saw a guy covered and making contested catches.
Except, he is right when you watch Chase play Florida, see the video above.
The point of Chase was supposed to be... he creates separation, Burrow needs WRs that can get open. Dude, he's covered and covered well, in more reps then he is open.
Again, the guy writing it is wrong on the measurables, and he seems salty, but after I read it, I watched the video... and it shows a guy that might be good at the next level, but this isn't some super special, generational, never before seen talent that everyone on here is claiming.
I noticed they conveniently left out the game against Clemson because apparently they're not an NFL-like defense.
I actually went back and watched the offensive plays from the Alabama game. They're not wrong that 2 of his big catches came from Diggs falling down. The first one they don't mention how he stops quickly and highpoints the ball to catch it. Diggs is unable to stop and stumbles forward and falls down. The 2nd time is the time when Diggs tried to attack Chase off the line and Chase basically threw him off. Chase throwing him off is what made Diggs fall down.
Not gonna say it was an insane game or anything, but I don't think it was a bad game. There were also a number of routes over the middle where Chase was open but the ball didn't come his way.
(04-03-2021, 03:33 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Except, he is right when you watch Chase play Florida, see the video above.
The point of Chase was supposed to be... he creates separation, Burrow needs WRs that can get open. Dude, he's covered and covered well, in more reps then he is open.
Again, the guy writing it is wrong on the measurables, and he seems salty, but after I read it, I watched the video... and it shows a guy that might be good at the next level, but this isn't some super special, generational, never before seen talent that everyone on here is claiming.
I’m sorry but a “3rd or 4th round pick” is an absolutely trash take, and should not be taken seriously by anyone.
If you want to sit here and nitpick the tape and say Chase is overrated, ok fine (i disagree) but some of that stuff is just flat out ridiculous. And every top prospect is at least somewhat overrated if we’re being honest. None of these guys are perfect prospects. Sewell has his own issues (including work ethic and immaturity issues) plus the best competition he ever faced (Auburn) is his worst tape.
Chase broke SEC records at 19. Disregarding wanting another position you really have to work hard to not like him as a prospect.
(04-03-2021, 03:39 AM)Fichidius Wrote: I noticed they conveniently left out the game against Clemson because apparently they're not an NFL-like defense.
I actually went back and watched the offensive plays from the Alabama game. They're not wrong that 2 of his big catches came from Diggs falling down. The first one they don't mention how he stops quickly and highpoints the ball to catch it. Diggs is unable to stop and stumbles forward and falls down. The 2nd time is the time when Diggs tried to attack Chase off the line and Chase basically threw him off. Chase throwing him off is what made Diggs fall down.
Not gonna say it was an insane game or anything, but I don't think it was a bad game. There were also a number of routes over the middle where Chase was open but the ball didn't come his way.
And that is actually one of my favorite aspects of Chase’s game. He is crazy strong at the line. And when you look at him you can see why. He looks like a shorter DK Metcalf. His body looks more like a RB than a WR. His physicality would be ideal for the AFC North.
(04-03-2021, 03:32 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: It seemed like he was just being salty... but I watched this clip, it's Chase vs Florida. His big play is not really him, as much as a brilliant play design to get him open, using the RB and defender to create space.
I'm not trying to kick a hornets nest or be all negative but, for all the hype about... "Ohhh you gotta get Chase... and he's generational." Against a good defense, he looked like a good WR... but not superman that everyone is hyping him to be. Saw him blanketed on several plays.
I do love his fight after the catch and breaking tackles, that is nice to see.
But his first touchdown, he's covered, there is no separation from the CB. That is a perfect ball from Burrow for that score. It's around the 50 second mark in the video. And all I hear from people on this board is how we need a WR that can create separation. I saw 2 catches where Chase created separation with great routes and one where the play design created it. Outside of that, I saw a guy covered and making contested catches.
I agree the breaking tackles was nice. His first TD the CB was on his back hip. The throw would have been easier for Burrow (and Burrow could have actually led Chase instead of bulleting it into him) if the ref wasn't standing right where he was. He was definitely schemed open for the one that he was wide open on.
The 2nd play on that clip he had a step on the CB and if Burrow would have thrown it deeper it would have also been a touchdown.
I agree Henderson had good coverage on Chase. Of course, Henderson was the 9th overall pick last year for a reason.
Chase is great, but he's not a 4.2 I'm going to run past you on a go route on every play type. He has about the same speed as the top receivers usually have, great vertical, and great agility.
(04-03-2021, 03:39 AM)Fichidius Wrote: I noticed they conveniently left out the game against Clemson because apparently they're not an NFL-like defense.
I actually went back and watched the offensive plays from the Alabama game. They're not wrong that 2 of his big catches came from Diggs falling down. The first one they don't mention how he stops quickly and highpoints the ball to catch it. Diggs is unable to stop and stumbles forward and falls down. The 2nd time is the time when Diggs tried to attack Chase off the line and Chase basically threw him off. Chase throwing him off is what made Diggs fall down.
Not gonna say it was an insane game or anything, but I don't think it was a bad game. There were also a number of routes over the middle where Chase was open but the ball didn't come his way.
Here's the tape from the Clemson game
Rep 1 - Covered, pass broken up
Rep 2 - Covered, comes back and perfect ball from Burrow for a completion.
Rep 3 - Nice route, gets open, the pass goes to the other side. Rep 4 - Covered, covered, covered... for an eternity.. covered 1 on 1. This is a concerning rep.
Rep 5 - Nice rep, uses his hands to create space, and gets open. Nice touch from Burrow to hit him in stride for 6. Great rep.
Rep 6 - Covered, covered, and throw away.
Rep 7 - Nice route, gets a little separation on the slant for a catch.
Rep 8 - Good coverage, this is Burrow dropping the ball in perfectly and Chase working hard after the catch. Again, no separation here.
Rep 9 - Covered, throw away.
Rep 10 - Covered, pass goes to another WR.
Rep 11 - Nice route. Sells the block, gets passed his man for the TD. Good Rep.
Rep 12 - Nice route, soft coverage, finds a spot, and settles down to make the catch. Does help having the zone cleared by the first slant WR.
Rep 13 - Really nice route to get open and make a catch.
Rep 14 - Overthrown ball, DPI certainly possible, but still well overthrown.
Rep 15 - Nice aggressive blocking. Good to see that.
Rep 16 - This rep is a mixture of things. First, perfect play call. Not sure if it was Brady or Burrow that saw this 10 yards of cushion happening and went to the screen, but great call. Then for Chase, nice run after the catch. Does a nice job of using his blockers until tackled from behind.
Rep 17 - Creates separation and drops a TD.
Rep 18 - Good play design on a WR screen. Goes for 1 yard. Wash of a rep seen Alex Erickson do that..
Rep 19 - Beats his man badly off the line, but Burrow has already thrown the ball to Jefferson. Great rep for him.
Rep 20 - Covered well, incomplete pass to him.
Rep 21 - Covered well, weird play and incompletion.
So, a mixed result from the tape against another high level defense. Not bad, but certainly not "generational".
(04-03-2021, 03:43 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m sorry but a “3rd or 4th round pick” is an absolutely trash take, and should not be taken seriously by anyone.
If you want to sit here and nitpick the tape and say Chase is overrated, ok fine (i disagree) but some of that stuff is just flat out ridiculous. And every top prospect is at least somewhat overrated if we’re being honest. None of these guys are perfect prospects. Sewell has his own issues (including work ethic and immaturity issues) plus the best competition he ever faced (Auburn) is his worst tape.
Chase broke SEC records at 19. Disregarding wanting another position you really have to work hard to not like him as a prospect.
Like I said, I didn't proof read the article. I saw the part about the game tape as well as the breakdown on WR draft position and found it interesting and shared it. And that part should be taken seriously, because it is actually accurate.
His other ramblings... are... ramblings.
As to Sewell. I would say hiss best competition was the Utah team that was top 10 ranked and had 3 of the 4 guys on the DL drafted and he shut them down for no sacks or the game against Wisconsin where he again shut them down. Not the Auburn team that he faced week 1 of the season and yes struggled in week 1 (like most college players do) and then got better and better as the season went on.
I agree all prospects have flaws, but no one around here seems to be willing to see them in Chase, and there is plenty of tape that shows he is good, and will be a good WR in the NFL, but he isn't some superman. In games against Clemson, Alabama, Florida, he is covered a good amount of the time. The we must draft Chase people keep using the argument of he creates separation, and when facing NFL level competition, he doesn't do it on a very regular basis.
(04-03-2021, 03:58 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So, a mixed result from the tape against another high level defense. Not bad, but certainly not "generational".
I really haven't seen this "generational" thing about Chase.
I've seen plenty of people say he is elite, but I can't say that I've seen many use the generational word for Chase. I've seen a lot more people use that for Sewell to be honest.
(04-03-2021, 04:12 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So... instead of pointing out where anything I said was wrong on the video.. you just say I'm not impressed.
Very useful discussion piece. This is Fred like... you're a better poster than this.
I’ve been around and around with you on this like 400 times, it’s getting annoying. I’m not going to sit here and go over the tape play by play. I’ve seen all of Chase I need to see. And his pro day was just the cherry on top.
You know how you needed to “step away” from the board over all this? I’m getting to that point if I’m being honest. And it’s entirely coming from a few people on one side of the argument. The ones that are open to multiple players/positions are the only reason this place is even bearable right now.
(04-03-2021, 03:32 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: It seemed like he was just being salty... but I watched this clip, it's Chase vs Florida. His big play is not really him, as much as a brilliant play design to get him open, using the RB and defender to create space.
I'm not trying to kick a hornets nest or be all negative but, for all the hype about... "Ohhh you gotta get Chase... and he's generational." Against a good defense, he looked like a good WR... but not superman that everyone is hyping him to be. Saw him blanketed on several plays.
I do love his fight after the catch and breaking tackles, that is nice to see.
But his first touchdown, he's covered, there is no separation from the CB. That is a perfect ball from Burrow for that score. It's around the 50 second mark in the video. And all I hear from people on this board is how we need a WR that can create separation. I saw 2 catches where Chase created separation with great routes and one where the play design created it. Outside of that, I saw a guy covered and making contested catches.
You realize that #1 for Florida that you see shadowing Chase most of the time is CJ Henderson, who was the #9 overall pick this last year? They are literally taking an elite college CB and moving him around to keep him on Chase and creating easy matchups for Jefferson to take advantage of. He still had 100+ yards and 2 TD's despite drawing the toughest matchup most of the time and would have had a 3rd TD if Henderson didn't pull his towel and his jersey to recover after getting beat.
An analytical breakdown play by play of 1 single game, that he 2 TD’s and 200+ yards in apparently, and he’s deemed overrated and crap. Okey dokey then.
(04-03-2021, 04:04 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Like I said, I didn't proof read the article. I saw the part about the game tape as well as the breakdown on WR draft position and found it interesting and shared it. And that part should be taken seriously, because it is actually accurate.
His other ramblings... are... ramblings.
As to Sewell. I would say hiss best competition was the Utah team that was top 10 ranked and had 3 of the 4 guys on the DL drafted and he shut them down for no sacks or the game against Wisconsin where he again shut them down. Not the Auburn team that he faced week 1 of the season and yes struggled in week 1 (like most college players do) and then got better and better as the season went on.
I agree all prospects have flaws, but no one around here seems to be willing to see them in Chase, and there is plenty of tape that shows he is good, and will be a good WR in the NFL, but he isn't some superman. In games against Clemson, Alabama, Florida, he is covered a good amount of the time. The we must draft Chase people keep using the argument of he creates separation, and when facing NFL level competition, he doesn't do it on a very regular basis.
Dude...seriously.
You're knocking Chase for not getting a bunch of separation against the #9 overall pick in the draft but lauding Sewell for not giving up a sack against a DL with three Day 3 picks on it?
I totally understand where you are coming from Murdock. That’s why I fell in love with Devonta after watching a little of both. Tons of separation.
A guys whose specialty is winning contested catches and being good at muscling DBs with his hands means he isn’t getting separation and is subject to PI calls. I like him. But I just don’t 5 love him.
(04-03-2021, 04:47 AM)Whatever Wrote: You realize that #1 for Florida that you see shadowing Chase most of the time is CJ Henderson, who was the #9 overall pick this last year? They are literally taking an elite college CB and moving him around to keep him on Chase and creating easy matchups for Jefferson to take advantage of. He still had 100+ yards and 2 TD's despite drawing the toughest matchup most of the time and would have had a 3rd TD if Henderson didn't pull his towel and his jersey to recover after getting beat.
So, just like the CBs he will be playing against every game in the NFL? Just saying, the NFL CBs are going to be a lot better.
(04-03-2021, 07:50 AM)spazz70 Wrote: So, just like the CBs he will be playing against every game in the NFL? Just saying, the NFL CBs are going to be a lot better.
Notice he wrote, "he still had 100+ yards and 2 TDs."
I'm happy with anyone we pick, but if we get Chase and he gets even HALF of that, year in, year out, that's 850 yards and 16.5 TDs a year.
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