Look, philosophically, the O line side of the debate makes sense. In a vaccum, where all things are equal, there's no debating an O lineman at 5.

And, vaccum or not, there's NO QUESTION or debate that the Bengals O line needs another starter... OR 2... for everyone to feel great about it.

HOWEVER....
Diving in deep and analyzing THIS SPECIFIC DRAFT is what switched me from O line to Jamaar Chase with the first pick.

Without a crystal ball, here's the truth on how this really looks...

- The Bengals NEED a #1 outside deep threat to replace 2016 AJ Green. Read that again.... They have needed to fill that spot for 4 seasons. O line or not, the Bengals CANNOT THREATEN DOWN FIELD with this current WR room.

This draft has a deep WR class, but they are not all WR1 guys. Most of them, while very good, are too small for what the Bengals want/need. Other than Marshall, you're looking at a bunch of sub 6' slot guys, or guys well under 200lbs.

Jamaar Chase fits the Bengals PERFECTLY while no one else available in 2, 3, 4 and beyond is really looking good for that WR1 role. Marshall will more than likely NOT be there in the 2nd.

To GUARANTEE you get a supreme talent at the WR1 spot, it's Chase or Pitts in the 1st vs praying at an alter for something to turn out from the later rounds.

As of now, the Bengals WR room looks far worse than the O line room. Since the Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 wide, right now they would be looking at this: Higgins, Boyd, Thomas, Tate, Morgan .... And that is if none of them get hurt.

^ THAT is not good.

Pitts & Chase are so so so so.... sooooooooo far ahead and better than whatever WRs will be available in rd2 and beyond that it isn't even funny. The Bengals would be getting 50-60% of those guys in rd 2 AT BEST. And, even still, a rd 2/3 WR would probably be a slot guy and the Bengals already have that in Boyd.

This leads me to the O line prospects.....

This O line class is so wildly deep it is amazing. There will be starter grade players at T/G/C available to the Bengals in rds 2 AND 3. It is THAT deep. In contrast to the above, where 50-60% of Pitts or Chase will be there in 2 and beyond, it is projected that a player who is 80% of Sewell will be there in the 2nd.

I cannot ignore the depth of the O line when analyzing who the Bengals should take in the first. I have to look past that to predict the ENTIRE draft as far as what the Bengals choices will be.

Sewell at 5, when compared to what O line talent will be available in rds 2 & 3 looks like an INSANE reach where as Chase or Pitts at 5 look like amazing value when compared to their draftmates.

The OT side of this draft alone is 9.... NINE deep with 1st round talent/starter grade guys... and that's without even touching the true Guards & Centers.

This O line class is so deep, I would be fine if they took Chase followed by the TE from Penn State in the 2nd, and THEN an O lineman in the 3rd. It is THAT deep of a class. BTW, for those thinking only high pick O linemen make it, Joe Thuney was a 3rd rounder. Great O linemen go in the mid rounds all the time, especially in the interior where the Bengals need the most help. Mid round WRs? Ehhhh, not a great track record.

In the 3rd, the C from OK could be there or the C from Alabama. Both can play G just fine, as well. So can Hopkins, who is looking to be back for camp.

Not only that, but cutting Gio has freed up plenty of room to still look at guys cut after June 1st as well as bring in Worford post draft.

Chase or Pitts MAKES SENSE in the first given the makeup of THIS particular draft class.

If you disagree with the above ^, no prob... But I would LOVE to hear your plan on solving the WR1 issue.

(04-09-2021, 09:32 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Look, philosophically, the O line side of the debate makes sense. In a vaccum, where all things are equal, there's no debating an O lineman at 5.

And, vaccum or not, there's NO QUESTION or debate that the Bengals O line needs another starter... OR 2... for everyone to feel great about it.

HOWEVER....
Diving in deep and analyzing THIS SPECIFIC DRAFT is what switched me from O line to Jamaar Chase with the first pick.

Without a crystal ball, here's the truth on how this really looks...

- The Bengals NEED a #1 outside deep threat to replace 2016 AJ Green. Read that again.... They have needed to fill that spot for 4 seasons. O line or not, the Bengals CANNOT THREATEN DOWN FIELD with this current WR room.

This draft has a deep WR class, but they are not all WR1 guys. Most of them, while very good, are too small for what the Bengals want/need. Other than Marshall, you're looking at a bunch of sub 6' slot guys, or guys well under 200lbs.

Jamaar Chase fits the Bengals PERFECTLY while no one else available in 2, 3, 4 and beyond is really looking good for that WR1 role. Marshall will more than likely NOT be there in the 2nd.

To GUARANTEE you get a supreme talent at the WR1 spot, it's Chase or Pitts in the 1st vs praying at an alter for something to turn out from the later rounds.

As of now, the Bengals WR room looks far worse than the O line room. Since the Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 wide, right now they would be looking at this: Higgins, Boyd, Thomas, Tate, Morgan .... And that is if none of them get hurt.

^ THAT is not good.

Pitts & Chase are so so so so.... sooooooooo far ahead and better than whatever WRs will be available in rd2 and beyond that it isn't even funny. The Bengals would be getting 50-60% of those guys in rd 2 AT BEST. And, even still, a rd 2/3 WR would probably be a slot guy and the Bengals already have that in Boyd.

This leads me to the O line prospects.....

This O line class is so wildly deep it is amazing. There will be starter grade players at T/G/C available to the Bengals in rds 2 AND 3. It is THAT deep. In contrast to the above, where 50-60% of Pitts or Chase will be there in 2 and beyond, it is projected that a player who is 80% of Sewell will be there in the 2nd.

I cannot ignore the depth of the O line when analyzing who the Bengals should take in the first. I have to look past that to predict the ENTIRE draft as far as what the Bengals choices will be.

Sewell at 5, when compared to what O line talent will be available in rds 2 & 3 looks like an INSANE reach where as Chase or Pitts at 5 look like amazing value when compared to their draftmates.

The OT side of this draft alone is 9.... NINE deep with 1st round talent/starter grade guys... and that's without even touching the true Guards & Centers.

This O line class is so deep, I would be fine if they took Chase followed by the TE from Penn State in the 2nd, and THEN an O lineman in the 3rd. It is THAT deep of a class. BTW, for those thinking only high pick O linemen make it, Joe Thuney was a 3rd rounder. Great O linemen go in the mid rounds all the time, especially in the interior where the Bengals need the most help. Mid round WRs? Ehhhh, not a great track record.

In the 3rd, the C from OK could be there or the C from Alabama. Both can play G just fine, as well. So can Hopkins, who is looking to be back for camp.

Not only that, but cutting Gio has freed up plenty of room to still look at guys cut after June 1st as well as bring in Worford post draft.

Chase or Pitts MAKES SENSE in the first given the makeup of THIS particular draft class.

If you disagree with the above ^, no prob... But I would LOVE to hear your plan on solving the WR1 issue.

If the o line has starters in the third round then I'm taking three o linemen.

How about turning the weakest and possibly most important unit from a weakness into a significant strength.

If Bengals can actually run the ball against the top defenses and protect Burrow better because of a running game, that would improve this team better than any other change and also lays the foundation to become a genuine competitor for the Super Bowl- not just a possible playoff spot- in two or three years.

Sewell, the best guard left in round 2 and maybe a really good center in round 3 would dramatically improve the offense and make the team better than Chase or Pitts.

(04-09-2021, 10:46 AM)bengals67 Wrote: If the o line has starters in the third round then I'm taking three o linemen.

How about turning the weakest and possibly most important unit from a weakness into a significant strength.

If Bengals can actually run the ball against the top defenses and protect Burrow better because of a running game, that would improve this team better than any other change and also lays the foundation to become a genuine competitor for the Super Bowl- not just a possible playoff spot- in two or three years.

Sewell, the best guard left in round 2 and maybe a really good center in round 3 would dramatically improve the offense and make the team better than Chase or Pitts.

That seems to be an incredibly heavy handed overcorrection, doesn't it? I mean, I love 3 yards and a cloud of dust as much as the next guy, but that style of offense is a horse and buggy on a racetrack where the peoole you're racing against are driving cars.

I do think the Bengals need to run the ball and control the clock more, but that only works with a strong defense, which the Bengals are working on.

So, how do you solve the WR #1 problem? Like, what is YOUR plan. I feel like my plan: Chase/Pitts 1st & then Leatherwood/Jenkins/Vera-Tucker/Meinerz/Radunz/Cosmi in the 2nd does it perfectly. Or hey, grab 2 of those guys 2nd & 3rd. All of them are very highly rated guys.

I am eager and open to hearing other people's ideas!

BTW, the O line is not the weakest unit on the Bengals. I don't think they're even 2nd. That would be: 1st WRs, 2nd LBs and then, up for debate would be RBs vs O line.

In 2021, nobody's winning the Superbowl running the football (or with their QB playing from their back). Teams throw all over you. Running the football is important, but that now more than ever is only done so you can go deep and throw.

I personally wouldn't mind trading to 10 with cowboys getting a 2nd this year and a 3rd next year.

(04-09-2021, 08:29 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, No.

I can't tell if you're intentionally ignoring/misinterpreting my point simply because you disagree with it or if you actually don't understand what I'm saying.

Either way, you're not really giving me much to work with in your responses, so I can't really continue a conversation with no discussion occurring.

(04-09-2021, 09:32 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Look, philosophically, the O line side of the debate makes sense. In a vaccum, where all things are equal, there's no debating an O lineman at 5.

And, vaccum or not, there's NO QUESTION or debate that the Bengals O line needs another starter... OR 2... for everyone to feel great about it.

HOWEVER....
Diving in deep and analyzing THIS SPECIFIC DRAFT is what switched me from O line to Jamaar Chase with the first pick.

Without a crystal ball, here's the truth on how this really looks...

- The Bengals NEED a #1 outside deep threat to replace 2016 AJ Green. Read that again.... They have needed to fill that spot for 4 seasons. O line or not, the Bengals CANNOT THREATEN DOWN FIELD with this current WR room.

This draft has a deep WR class, but they are not all WR1 guys. Most of them, while very good, are too small for what the Bengals want/need. Other than Marshall, you're looking at a bunch of sub 6' slot guys, or guys well under 200lbs.

Jamaar Chase fits the Bengals PERFECTLY while no one else available in 2, 3, 4 and beyond is really looking good for that WR1 role. Marshall will more than likely NOT be there in the 2nd.

To GUARANTEE you get a supreme talent at the WR1 spot, it's Chase or Pitts in the 1st vs praying at an alter for something to turn out from the later rounds.

As of now, the Bengals WR room looks far worse than the O line room. Since the Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 wide, right now they would be looking at this: Higgins, Boyd, Thomas, Tate, Morgan .... And that is if none of them get hurt.

^ THAT is not good.

Pitts & Chase are so so so so.... sooooooooo far ahead and better than whatever WRs will be available in rd2 and beyond that it isn't even funny. The Bengals would be getting 50-60% of those guys in rd 2 AT BEST. And, even still, a rd 2/3 WR would probably be a slot guy and the Bengals already have that in Boyd.

This leads me to the O line prospects.....

This O line class is so wildly deep it is amazing. There will be starter grade players at T/G/C available to the Bengals in rds 2 AND 3. It is THAT deep. In contrast to the above, where 50-60% of Pitts or Chase will be there in 2 and beyond, it is projected that a player who is 80% of Sewell will be there in the 2nd.

I cannot ignore the depth of the O line when analyzing who the Bengals should take in the first. I have to look past that to predict the ENTIRE draft as far as what the Bengals choices will be.

Sewell at 5, when compared to what O line talent will be available in rds 2 & 3 looks like an INSANE reach where as Chase or Pitts at 5 look like amazing value when compared to their draftmates.

The OT side of this draft alone is 9.... NINE deep with 1st round talent/starter grade guys... and that's without even touching the true Guards & Centers.

This O line class is so deep, I would be fine if they took Chase followed by the TE from Penn State in the 2nd, and THEN an O lineman in the 3rd. It is THAT deep of a class. BTW, for those thinking only high pick O linemen make it, Joe Thuney was a 3rd rounder. Great O linemen go in the mid rounds all the time, especially in the interior where the Bengals need the most help. Mid round WRs? Ehhhh, not a great track record.

In the 3rd, the C from OK could be there or the C from Alabama. Both can play G just fine, as well. So can Hopkins, who is looking to be back for camp.

Not only that, but cutting Gio has freed up plenty of room to still look at guys cut after June 1st as well as bring in Worford post draft.

Chase or Pitts MAKES SENSE in the first given the makeup of THIS particular draft class.

If you disagree with the above ^, no prob... But I would LOVE to hear your plan on solving the WR1 issue.

This realization is what ultimately led me to be happy with the selection if it is Chase or Pitts. Well said.

(04-09-2021, 11:12 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: This realization is what ultimately led me to be happy with the selection if it is Chase or Sewell. Well said.

Pitts is best of the 3. Besides for Lawrence  in most scouts minds barring some catastrophic injury he is the only cant miss prospect in entire draft. So we should be offering our 2nd to Falcons to acquire him at 4 and if he is available at 5 it should be a no brainer

(04-09-2021, 11:15 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Pitts is best of the 3. Besides for Lawrence  in most scouts minds barring some catastrophic injury he is the only cant miss prospect in entire draft. So we should be offering our 2nd to Falcons to acquire him at 4 and if he is available at 5 it should be a no brainer

I see Pitts as more of a WR and would be A ok with him at 5. However, I would 100% NOT be ok with trading a 2nd for him or to move up 1 spot to do so. That would be draft crushing.

(04-09-2021, 11:12 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: This realization is what ultimately led me to be happy with the selection if it is Chase or Pitts. Well said.

Yeah, I won't be throwing a remote through the TV if they select any of the 3 usual suspects being discussed.

The only fall back WR I see being viable is Rashod Bateman in the 2nd or 3rd if they go O line in the first. I think he has a chance to be a strong player.

(04-09-2021, 11:08 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: I personally wouldn't mind trading to 10 with cowboys getting a 2nd this year and a 3rd next year.

Ok, so, that is an interesting idea. I don't see them doing it, but I think that is worth discussing.

If it were me and that was the trade offered, I would think this would be an incredible alternative to a Chase/Olineman 1/2.

OT: Darrisaw at 10
TE Freiermuth 1st pick in 2nd
WR Bateman w Cowboys 2nd rounder

^ That would be a very very interesting draft, to me. I would be thrilled with that.

(04-09-2021, 11:50 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Ok, so, that is an interesting idea. I don't see them doing it, but I think that is worth discussing.

If it were me and that was the trade offered, I would think this would be an incredible alternative to a Chase/Olineman 1/2.

OT: Darrisaw at 10
TE Freiermuth 1st pick in 2nd
WR Bateman w Cowboys 2nd rounder

^ That would be a very very interesting draft, to me. I would be thrilled with that.

I don’t like Darrisaw. He isn’t that impressive and I think he needs a lot more work.

I think you all are putting way to much thought into this.

(04-09-2021, 11:05 AM)PDub80 Wrote: That seems to be an incredibly heavy handed overcorrection, doesn't it? I mean, I love 3 yards and a cloud of dust as much as the next guy, but that style of offense is a horse and buggy on a racetrack where the peoole you're racing against are driving cars.

I do think the Bengals need to run the ball and control the clock more, but that only works with a strong defense, which the Bengals are working on.

So, how do you solve the WR #1 problem? Like, what is YOUR plan. I feel like my plan: Chase/Pitts 1st & then Leatherwood/Jenkins/Vera-Tucker/Meinerz/Radunz/Cosmi in the 2nd does it perfectly. Or hey, grab 2 of those guys 2nd & 3rd. All of them are very highly rated guys.

I am eager and open to hearing other people's ideas!

BTW, the O line is not the weakest unit on the Bengals. I don't think they're even 2nd. That would be: 1st WRs, 2nd LBs and then, up for debate would be RBs vs O line.

In 2021, nobody's winning the Superbowl running the football (or with their QB playing from their back). Teams throw all over you. Running the football is important, but that now more than ever is only done so you can go deep and throw.

Chase and Pitts are great prospects but I will never change my opinion that throwing a lot of capital into the o line is way more important that adding a possible superstar WR.

Drafting Pitts or Chase might have made sense if they had spent more money on one of the top level free agent o linemen. The guy we signed is better than Hart but he is not a long term solution and is on the downhill side of his career. He is not a top 10 OT. Maybe not a top 15 OT.

Wouldn't it be nice for the Bengals to have a dominant o line. If the Steelers and the Ravens had to worry about Mixon getting over 4 yards a clip and possibly breaking a long one, how much more effective does this make Burrow in his passing game and having time to go through his progressions?

How much better do the WRs look if Burrow is regularly getting 4 seconds to survey the field and they have single coverage because the D is loading the box to stop the run?

Munoz and Lapham both want Sewell. I trust their judgment, particularly our greatest player in team history.

I don't love seeing the Bengals pick this high in the draft, but it's sure made this offseason interesting. Last year there wasn't even a question of who they'd draft. People were making up stories about Burrow refusing the pick just to create SOME kind of story around the pick.

But this year has been wild. So many interesting options. They all have implications, great arguments can be made on every account. I personally am loving it!

(04-09-2021, 12:21 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Chase and Pitts are great prospects but I will never change my opinion that throwing a lot of capital into the o line is way more important that adding a possible superstar WR.

Drafting Pitts or Chase might have made sense if they had spent more money on one of the top level free agent o linemen. The guy we signed is better than Hart but he is not a long term solution and is on the downhill side of his career. He is not a top 10 OT. Maybe not a top 15 OT.

Wouldn't it be nice for the Bengals to have a dominant o line. If the Steelers and the Ravens had to worry about Mixon getting over 4 yards a clip and possibly breaking a long one, how much more effective does this make Burrow in his passing game and having time to go through his progressions?

How much better do the WRs look if Burrow is regularly getting 4 seconds to survey the field and they have single coverage because the D is loading the box to stop the run?

Munoz and Lapham both want Sewell. I trust their judgment, particularly our greatest player in team history.

I am 100% on board with drafting and using resources on O Line, but a heavy heavy run % needs to be backed up with a top 5 defense at minimum to win.

BTW, the Bengals have one of the best young QBs in the NFL. Burrow is a monster by all accounts and wildly talented. Why take the ball out of your best player's hands and give it to Joe Mixon, who hasn't managed to stay healthy for a season? Why have a Burrow if you're going to just hand it off? And, before anyone points to the the Ravens or Cardinals (run heavy teams), a lot of their runs are designed QB runs. So, their ratios are very skewed. BTW, AZ has some really big named WRs.... and is one of the most run heavy teams in the NFL at just over 45% (8th highest in the league). 24 teams have a lower run % than that... and, as mentioned above, a lot of AZ's runs come by way of QB. Baltimore is heaviest at 57.8% run due to Jackson.  https://fftoday.com/stats/20_run_pass_ratios.html

How do you fix one of the lowest tier WR rooms in the NFL? The run game will be horrific, great O line or not, if the other team stacks the box and cheats everyone forward to the line because they no the Bengals cannot throw over 15 yards.

(04-09-2021, 12:21 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Chase and Pitts are great prospects but I will never change my opinion that throwing a lot of capital into the o line is way more important that adding a possible superstar WR.

Drafting Pitts or Chase might have made sense if they had spent more money on one of the top level free agent o linemen. The guy we signed is better than Hart but he is not a long term solution and is on the downhill side of his career. He is not a top 10 OT. Maybe not a top 15 OT.

Wouldn't it be nice for the Bengals to have a dominant o line. If the Steelers and the Ravens had to worry about Mixon getting over 4 yards a clip and possibly breaking a long one, how much more effective does this make Burrow in his passing game and having time to go through his progressions?

How much better do the WRs look if Burrow is regularly getting 4 seconds to survey the field and they have single coverage because the D is loading the box to stop the run?

Munoz and Lapham both want Sewell. I trust their judgment, particularly our greatest player in team history.

There is nobody in the NFL that consistently gets 4 seconds to throw.  There are only a couple of guys consistently get 3.  The difference between the elite OL's and bad ones is .6-.7 of a second.

Teams single covered our WR's most of last year.  Burrow was on pace to be the most blitzed QB in the league by a wide margin before he went down.  That's because defenses don't respect our WR's.  If we go three straight OL, we'll just be running at 8-9 man boxes all day and getting overwhelmed by the blitz on third and long because we have no one to keep the D from loading up the box.

Our WR corps is a lot worse than people seem to think.  Something to think about is Tate, Thomas, and Morgan(our current WR3-5) have 2 career TD's in 10 combined years of NFL experience.  That's pathetically bad.  

(04-09-2021, 12:05 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I don’t like Darrisaw. He isn’t that impressive and I think he needs a lot more work.

I think he has Trent Williams written all over him. He graded just under Sewell in PFF grades year before last.

Slater is Jonah Williams 2.0. I, personally, think Williams is better suited INSIDE or at RT. He isn't big enough or long enough for LT. He got his ass handed to him a lot last year and I got sick of watching him just whiff.

Other than Sewell, what OT or O line prospects do you like?

(04-09-2021, 12:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: There is nobody in the NFL that consistently gets 4 seconds to throw.  There are only a couple of guys consistently get 3.  The difference between the elite OL's and bad ones is .6-.7 of a second.

Teams single covered our WR's most of last year.  Burrow was on pace to be the most blitzed QB in the league by a wide margin before he went down.  That's because defenses don't respect our WR's.  If we go three straight OL, we'll just be running at 8-9 man boxes all day and getting overwhelmed by the blitz on third and long because we have no one to keep the D from loading up the box.

Our WR corps is a lot worse than people seem to think.  Something to think about is Tate, Thomas, and Morgan(our current WR3-5) have 2 career TD's in 10 combined years of NFL experience.  That's pathetically bad.  

Didn't realize that stat at the end. Yikes!

(04-09-2021, 12:56 PM)Whatever Wrote: There is nobody in the NFL that consistently gets 4 seconds to throw.  There are only a couple of guys consistently get 3.  The difference between the elite OL's and bad ones is .6-.7 of a second.

Teams single covered our WR's most of last year.  Burrow was on pace to be the most blitzed QB in the league by a wide margin before he went down.  That's because defenses don't respect our WR's.  If we go three straight OL, we'll just be running at 8-9 man boxes all day and getting overwhelmed by the blitz on third and long because we have no one to keep the D from loading up the box.

Our WR corps is a lot worse than people seem to think.  Something to think about is Tate, Thomas, and Morgan(our current WR3-5) have 2 career TD's in 10 combined years of NFL experience.  That's pathetically bad.  

I agree we need help at WR. I just think historically we have been able to find that in round 2. If we shore up the OL it also improves our running game and creates more options for Burrow and helps the play action game. Giving him a running game would also help us offensively.

(04-09-2021, 12:55 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  Why take the ball out of your best player's hands and give it to Joe Mixon, who cannot manage to stay healthy for a season? 

Because doing it your way means Burrow will never manage to stay healthy for a season.

(04-09-2021, 12:55 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  How do you fix one of the lowest tier WR rooms in the NFL? The run game will be horrific, great O line or not, if the other team stacks the box and cheats everyone forward to the line because they no the Bengals cannot throw over 15 yards.

This is just complete BS.

If the Bengals can't throw the ball more than 15 yards then how did Higgins finish 18th in receptions of 20+ yards despite missing two games?  How did he finish 12th in yards per catch among all WRs with at least 100 targets last year?