(04-10-2021, 10:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How about the Sewell vs Chase camps meet in the middle and we just go Pitts.

No argument here.

Pitts is something so unique.

(04-10-2021, 07:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Higgins is faster than Shuster.


Our WRs would have better separation numbers if Burrow didn't float the deep ball.  That gives the DBs time to close on the ball.  That is what "slams the window shut".

The sep numbers are on passes CAUGHT, not thrown. Looking at Tee Higgins catch charts, he only caught 12 or so passes beyond 15 yards all season. The WR separation numbers have nothing to do with Joe Burrow or his deep throws. If anything, it would be the opposite conclusion. The WRs are not separating much on their routes and are operating in a phonebooth, so to speak. Burrow's windows were much tighter last year given that AJ Green was at 1.7 yards of separation avg per catch. Boyd and Higgins were ok, but not killing it. Didn't look at the other guys.

(04-10-2021, 09:17 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This is correct. They need multiple pieces and have one spot to use on an elite guy.

However, I want your opinion on this as well as Nico and other people who are really big into Chase at 5.

Every year the "experts" say the draft is loaded with OL talent on day 2 and day 3. However, at the start of every single NFL season, the talk is how there is a real lack of quality starting NFL offensive linemen. 

Every year (this year included) when free agency begins, there is a huge rush on OL and Edge rushers. I mean, look at this year specifically. The top OL player was Thuney. Maybe you can say Trent Williams but no one thought he was leaving San Fran, it was either re-sign or retire for him. So, let's go with Thuney as next in line. The top WR target, Golliday.

So, day 1 of FA. Thuney, courted by many and signed by a team in cap hell. Didn't matter, when there is an exceptional guy on the OL, you make it work.

Zeitler, an above average OL, signed on day 1, the list goes on of guys that were immediately gobbled up on the line in the start of FA. Tier one and Tier two was empty, before people could even sign officially.

Now compare that to the top WR target.

Golliday had to use the Bengals as leverage to increase his market with the Giants. Think about that, the unquestioned top WR in the class, had to use a team to increase his market. He signed March 21st, well after the legal tampering period and into actual open free agency.

So, around the league, when you have a chance to get elite level OL or Edge rushers, you don't think, you do it. It is clearly viewed that you can find talent at WR much easier around the NFL.

With that logic in mind, why would you pass on elite level OL play to get average OL play in 2?

I get that Chase will be elite at the WR, but again, Golliday is elite and had no market when half the NFL could use him as their #1. We have two solid 1000 yard able receivers on the team. We need a guy that can get deep, and get open and make defenses respect that. He doesn't need to be perfectly polished, he doesn't need to have a complete route tree, he can be a work in progress as long as he can get deep and make the defense respect that.

Again, I understand Chase will be a very good WR. Not saying he won't, I'm simply saying the league has a lack of elite talent on the OL, and it is not lacking for talent at WR.

So, I'm curious with all that knowledge, why are people still clamoring for Chase?

So, great, well thought out points.

A few notes:

- Thuney was a 3rd rounder, which should give everyone hope that there ARE, indeed, good players there. Now, can the Bengals find them? Wellllll, they haven't exactly found them ANYWHERE lately.

- Teams play with 5 linemen on the field at all times. So, there will always be a need for those guys as a premium. WRs tend to be 2 at a time, sometimes 3. The Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 WR "empty" backfield stuff. They need capable WRs 4 or 5 deep, which is a bit unconventional in the NFL.

- Golliday was coming off a down year with some injuries. No one thought this years FA WR group was THAT strong. Everyone waited on the bigger dominos to fall to see what money was left for WR. He still got SUPER paid, however.

- This year's draft has some really talented guys, yes. I just don't think they have nearly as many outside threats as last year. A lot... A LOT... of the WRs are smaller in stature. While Chase is only 6' something, he is 203-210lbs and considered very very strong. I watched a scouting video on him and it showed how he dealt with teams that tried to press him. He chucked a high draft pick (last year's draft) literally off to the sideline after they laid hands on him. He is wildly strong off the jam. So, Chase is unique in this class in that he is at least 6' and 200+ lbs.

The wideout class last year was EXCELLENT. A lot of strong wideouts have been coming out lately. This also played into why the WR market wasn't booming.

And there weren't a ton of O linemen out on the market to be had. Not to mention some major injuries late in the season had teams THIRSTY for line talent. The Bengals being one of them.

- 1st round offensive linemen have the LEAST likely chance to bust. They tend to be very consistent in their talent. This year's draft has O linemen with starter grades all the way into the 3rd round... at least... according to Tobin via the Hear Theat Podcast Growlin show the Athletic puts on.

So, to answer the elite talent question: Penei Sewell is NOT Orlando Pace or the 2nd coming of Andrew Whitworth or even Trent Williams. I think he is built more like a guard than an elite NFL tackle. His physical testing numbers give him an outside shot of being a top OT. There are only a handful who are considered excellent with his dimensions. He was listed at 6'5" 331, which was eye popping... Measured 6'4" with short arms. I think he has just been built into a mythical figure already, which isn't fair to the kid.

So, ultimately, I think the Bengals could STILL get an excellent O lineman in round 2. I'm not so sold on an excellent WR being there. Either way, there are several positions of need on the team. The debate, which should be fun, BTW, is... what's the BEST way to address BOTH?

For example: Would you rather have Option #1 Chase (Pitts)/Leatherwood or Option #2 Sewell/Bateman?

To me, option #1 looks waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. That's what it comes down to, to me. Which gives the highest level of talent to the Bengals.

Chase and Pitts played against better competition than Sewell did.
That speaks volumes.
Yeah Sewell dominated his competition. But Pitts and Chase
Dominated 1st RD talents.

(04-10-2021, 11:17 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Chase and Pitts played against better competition than Sewell did.
That speaks volumes.
Yeah Sewell dominated his competition. But Pitts and Chase
Dominated 1st RD talents.

Exactly 

(04-10-2021, 11:08 PM)PDub80 Wrote: So, great, well thought out points.

A few notes:

- Thuney was a 3rd rounder, which should give everyone hope that there ARE, indeed, good players there. Now, can the Bengals find them? Wellllll, they haven't exactly found them ANYWHERE lately.

- Teams play with 5 linemen on the field at all times. So, there will always be a need for those guys as a premium. WRs tend to be 2 at a time, sometimes 3. The Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 WR "empty" backfield stuff. They need capable WRs 4 or 5 deep, which is a bit unconventional in the NFL.

- Golliday was coming off a down year with some injuries. No one thought this years FA WR group was THAT strong. Everyone waited on the bigger dominos to fall to see what money was left for WR. He still got SUPER paid, however.

- This year's draft has some really talented guys, yes. I just don't think they have nearly as many outside threats as last year. A lot... A LOT... of the WRs are smaller in stature. While Chase is only 6' something, he is 203-210lbs and considered very very strong. I watched a scouting video on him and it showed how he dealt with teams that tried to press him. He chucked a high draft pick (last year's draft) literally off to the sideline after they laid hands on him. He is wildly strong off the jam. So, Chase is unique in this class in that he is at least 6' and 200+ lbs.

The wideout class last year was EXCELLENT. A lot of strong wideouts have been coming out lately. This also played into why the WR market wasn't booming.

And there weren't a ton of O linemen out on the market to be had. Not to mention some major injuries late in the season had teams THIRSTY for line talent. The Bengals being one of them.

- 1st round offensive linemen have the LEAST likely chance to bust. They tend to be very consistent in their talent. This year's draft has O linemen with starter grades all the way into the 3rd round... at least... according to Tobin via the Hear Theat Podcast Growlin show the Athletic puts on.

So, to answer the elite talent question: Penei Sewell is NOT Orlando Pace or the 2nd coming of Andrew Whitworth or even Trent Williams. I think he is built more like a guard than an elite NFL tackle. His physical testing numbers give him an outside shot of being a top OT. There are only a handful who are considered excellent with his dimensions. He was listed at 6'5" 331, which was eye popping... Measured 6'4" with short arms. I think he has just been built into a mythical figure already, which isn't fair to the kid.

So, ultimately, I think the Bengals could STILL get an excellent O lineman in round 2. I'm not so sold on an excellent WR being there. Either way, there are several positions of need on the team. The debate, which should be fun, BTW, is... what's the BEST way to address BOTH?

For example: Would you rather have Option #1 Chase (Pitts)/Leatherwood or Option #2 Sewell/Bateman?

To me, option #1 looks waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. That's what it comes down to, to me. Which gives the highest level of talent to the Bengals.

I didn't even want to.answer him. He sounds like hes just trying to justify taking sewell anyway possible. And the fact that he likes bateman says it all. Bateman looks funny and not going to be a star X receiver, he runs some good routes that's all I see in him. Edit- he probably likes Nico collins also another funny looking cornball, looks like the next braylon Edward's. I bet this guy would be drooling over braylon Edward's coming out also.

The more I look at these late route receivers I only like a few and not sure how good they really will be..I also view boyd as just a slot and tee Higgins as a ok receiver with potential,have not seen him be a deep threat,I only remember one play he made down the sidelines,1.  They can try to point to his stats but we did throw the ball 50 -60 times a game and tee stayed healthy. 

(04-10-2021, 06:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Bengals have literally no one to take the top off of a defense and haven't fir years. I see WR as a huge need for the Bengals. Right now, the roster sits at: Higgins, Boyd, Tate, Thomas, Morgan

That is NOT good. Who do you have as the Bengals outside WR threat? Higgins got 2.5 yards separation per catch last year and doesn't have the extra gear to run away from guys. Who is the downfield threat for the Bengals?

Mr Mora Jr.,
Tee Higgins averaged over 15 YPC with Joe last year (over 16 YPC their last 4 games together. The Bengals have a very good outside threat and one that can catch the deep ball. Tee has always been an outside deep threat both in college ans to date in the pros.

It's OK to want ja"Marr, but don't be like mora Jr and say we have no outside threat at WR

We need PITTS, we need a TE that can block, catch and win us games!!! TEs are more useful than WRs.

(04-11-2021, 12:06 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: We need PITTS, we need a TE that can block, catch and win us games!!! TEs are more useful than WRs.

Have never known a TE to go in the top 5 of the NFL draft.Also have never seen a TE hyped as much as Pitts,,,,,,,ever.Maybe he deserves it.But I’m all in on Chase.Although I wouldn’t be disappointed if they take Pitts at 5.

(04-10-2021, 11:30 PM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: Exactly 

So who will his next persona be? 
 

(04-11-2021, 12:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Mr Mora Jr.,
    Tee Higgins averaged over 15 YPC with Joe last year (over 16 YPC their last 4 games together. The Bengals have a very good outside threat and one that can catch the deep ball. Tee has always been an outside deep threat both in college ans to date in the pros.

It's OK to want ja"Marr, but don't be like mora Jr and say we have no outside threat at WR

We don't have a threat on the outside. It has nothing to do with the WRs. It has to do with the QB and O-line. So, to summarize, we have no outside threat, currently.

(04-10-2021, 11:17 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Chase and Pitts played against better competition than Sewell did.
That speaks volumes.
Yeah Sewell dominated his competition. But Pitts and Chase
Dominated 1st RD talents.

So Quinn Meinerz and Dillon Radunz should be completely off the draft board by this logic.... yet most people are all about one or the other or both after taking Chase... 

So, competition only matters when it's convenient to the argument? 

Oh.. and this "competition" argument has no weight when the guy that was Sewell's QB played the same "lack of competition" and moved to the NFL with no issue and was the best rookie QB of the season, with a better showing then the rookies from the SEC....

So... next argument?

It's okay to prefer Chase... but this is not a good excuse or argument for being against Sewell at all.

(03-26-2021, 08:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Or maybe Joe realizes the entire future of the OL does not hinge on a single draft pick...

I swear, this OL at 5 or bust mentality has gotten out of hand here. There will be plenty of good players available on day 2.

This.They can get a good OT in 2nd rnd.This draft is deep at OT.Take the wr.It is who Joe wants.

(04-10-2021, 11:08 PM)PDub8 Wrote: So, great, well thought out points.

A few notes:

- Thuney was a 3rd rounder, which should give everyone hope that there ARE, indeed, good players there. Now, can the Bengals find them? Wellllll, they haven't exactly found them ANYWHERE lately.

- Teams play with 5 linemen on the field at all times. So, there will always be a need for those guys as a premium. WRs tend to be 2 at a time, sometimes 3. The Bengals run a lot of 4 & 5 WR "empty" backfield stuff. They need capable WRs 4 or 5 deep, which is a bit unconventional in the NFL.

- Golliday was coming off a down year with some injuries. No one thought this years FA WR group was THAT strong. Everyone waited on the bigger dominos to fall to see what money was left for WR. He still got SUPER paid, however.

- This year's draft has some really talented guys, yes. I just don't think they have nearly as many outside threats as last year. A lot... A LOT... of the WRs are smaller in stature. While Chase is only 6' something, he is 203-210lbs and considered very very strong. I watched a scouting video on him and it showed how he dealt with teams that tried to press him. He chucked a high draft pick (last year's draft) literally off to the sideline after they laid hands on him. He is wildly strong off the jam. So, Chase is unique in this class in that he is at least 6' and 200+ lbs.

The wideout class last year was EXCELLENT. A lot of strong wideouts have been coming out lately. This also played into why the WR market wasn't booming.

And there weren't a ton of O linemen out on the market to be had. Not to mention some major injuries late in the season had teams THIRSTY for line talent. The Bengals being one of them.

- 1st round offensive linemen have the LEAST likely chance to bust. They tend to be very consistent in their talent. This year's draft has O linemen with starter grades all the way into the 3rd round... at least... according to Tobin via the Hear Theat Podcast Growlin show the Athletic puts on.

So, to answer the elite talent question: Penei Sewell is NOT Orlando Pace or the 2nd coming of Andrew Whitworth or even Trent Williams. I think he is built more like a guard than an elite NFL tackle. His physical testing numbers give him an outside shot of being a top OT. There are only a handful who are considered excellent with his dimensions. He was listed at 6'5" 331, which was eye popping... Measured 6'4" with short arms. I think he has just been built into a mythical figure already, which isn't fair to the kid.

So, ultimately, I think the Bengals could STILL get an excellent O lineman in round 2. I'm not so sold on an excellent WR being there. Either way, there are several positions of need on the team. The debate, which should be fun, BTW, is... what's the BEST way to address BOTH?

For example: Would you rather have Option #1 Chase (Pitts)/Leatherwood or Option #2 Sewell/Bateman?

To me, option #1 looks waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. That's what it comes down to, to me. Which gives the highest level of talent to the Bengals.
Whitworth was a 3rd rnd pick too.

(04-11-2021, 01:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So Quinn Meinerz and Dillon Radunz should be completely off the draft board by this logic.... yet most people are all about one or the other or both after taking Chase... 

So, competition only matters when it's convenient to the argument? 

Oh.. and this "competition" argument has no weight when the guy that was Sewell's QB played the same "lack of competition" and moved to the NFL with no issue and was the best rookie QB of the season, with a better showing then the rookies from the SEC....

So... next argument?

It's okay to prefer Chase... but this is not a good excuse or argument for being against Sewell at all.

I don't think competition is a be all end all, especially w O line, but it's worth talking about. We're just conducting an exercise in splitting hairs at this point.

And that's what the discussion is, right? Both Chase & Sewell are elite, top shelf players in this draft. We're all just boiling it down to the finest degree.

I actually think competition is LESS important w linemen. They all push fatties around and face big, strong, tall D Ends at some point. And you're really judging them on their size and how they move. If there was a tie breaker between linemen, sure, competition matters maybe?

At WR, I think that's a lot different. It does matter to see who a guy matched up 1 on 1 against because you get to see them on an island against similar athletes every play. The individual skill there is critically important and on display. I think WR is a technically much more complicated position both athletically athletically and as a skill set.

Like, I love that Jamaar Chase torched AJ Terrell so badly in the biggest games of their college career, that it cost him millions in draft position. AJ Terrell was the 16th pick last year and Jamaar Chase lit a gasoline fire on him and we watched it burn for 3 + hours.... in a game that couldn't have been bigger. I like that, too. The big game performances. Chase did the same thing over and over again to guys who are now in the NFL and/or are about to be.

Great film Breakdown of Chase vs Terrell, 16th pick in 2020 draft (9 carches 221 & 2 TDs): https://youtu.be/XH9Z1iEOU_E

Breakdown of Chase vs CJ Henderson, 9th pick in last years draft (Chase had 7 catches for 127 & 2 TDs)
https://youtu.be/-_Xdc5ehBB8

^ That stuff, to me, is important to pay attention to.

Something that none of us have talked about, nor can we really, is what these guys are like in interviews. Their football IQ, how their personality may fit w the Bengals, etc. And, they are BOTH super young.

(04-11-2021, 02:43 AM)bengalsboy Wrote: This.They can get a good OT in 2nd rnd.This draft is deep at OT.Take the wr.It is who Joe wants.

I guess I'm not seeing the "oline or bust" mentality that some feel is getting out of hand. I've seen many debates on Pitts, Sewell, or Chase. I don't think I've seen much of any "we gotta take Slater, Darrisaw,..." at #5OA. I have seen quite a bit of "Chase or bust because Joe wants him". 

The only thing I've ever heard Joe say directly when asked about Chase is "I wouldn't mind throwing to him". Really not the all all want that Albert Brier "reported" and folks around here have jumped on. 

To be honest, knowing Joe's mentality, I'd be highly surprised if he's going out of his way to stump for anyone at this point in his career. He's always had a "respect must be earned" mentality. I doubt he's trying to be the biggest voice in the room going into his 2nd season. 

(04-10-2021, 10:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  The WR separation numbers have nothing to do with Joe Burrow or his deep throws.

Okay.

I will 100% agree with this,

The main concern I have with Sewell is that he hasn't had a ton of experience in actual passing sets. He's also more passive with his contact when in pass pro that messes up his feet and gets him off balance. He's aggressive when run blocking, so he has it in him somewhere, it's just getting it out of him. Putting him a OG does worry me a bit to start because the main guy that gave him trouble was Derrick Brown, an interior D-lineman.

The fact that Pollack was with an even more raw prospect in Becton last year and got a lot out of him does give me hope if the go with Sewell, but I think it could be a longer road than people think.

(04-11-2021, 10:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I guess I'm not seeing the "oline or bust" mentality that some feel is getting out of hand. I've seen many debates on Pitts, Sewell, or Chase. I don't think I've seen much of any "we gotta take Slater, Darrisaw,..." at #5OA. I have seen quite a bit of "Chase or bust because Joe wants him". 

The only thing I've ever heard Joe say directly when asked about Chase is "I wouldn't mind throwing to him". Really not the all all want that Albert Brier "reported" and folks around here have jumped on. 

To be honest, knowing Joe's mentality, I'd be highly surprised if he's going out of his way to stump for anyone at this point in his career. He's always had a "respect must be earned" mentality. I doubt he's trying to be the biggest voice in the room going into his 2nd season. 

Very good point.

Based on the fact that they played together and Chase is an incredible talent I am sure Joe would love to have him as a WR.  But I doubt he is actually flexing or trying to force the team to draft him.

If media asked Joe how he felt about Sewell he would probably say he would be happy to play with him also.  Same with Pitts.

No matter what happens it looks like Burrow is guaranteed to get an elite player added to his offense.  I have argued strongly for Sewell, but I am not going to freak out if we take Pitts or Chase.  

(04-11-2021, 12:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Mr Mora Jr.,
    Tee Higgins averaged over 15 YPC with Joe last year (over 16 YPC their last 4 games together. The Bengals have a very good outside threat and one that can catch the deep ball. Tee has always been an outside deep threat both in college ans to date in the pros.

It's OK to want ja"Marr, but don't be like mora Jr and say we have no outside threat at WR

You need to dive into these statistics a little further. You're telling me how good the cake tastes bases off of the icing.

According to Nextgenstats...

Only 12 of Tee Higgins 67 catches were over 15 yards in thenair last season. Only 8 of which were in the air over 20 yards... None of which traveled 30.

The Bengals ranked 31st in the NFL in deep passes completed (balls that traveled 20 yards in the air or more) ZERO of which came past 30 yards and the majority of which were 20-25 yards.

The Bengals also had the WORST trio of WRs in terms of avg yards of separation per catch. AJ Green 1.7, Higgins 2.5, Boyd 2.7.

The Bengals have NO ONE as a deep threat. Literally no one on the roster. Every Bengals podcast has touched on this the last 4 years. This is killing Taylor's offensive scheme AND Joe Mixon because teams cheat up and do not hold numbers back to respect anything deep.

Here's a link to nextgen https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/ to verify the WR stats. Who is reolacing AJ Green for you? Michael Thomas? Tate? UDFA Stan Morgan?

You drafting Bateman as your replacement for AJ Green? A late round flier on a WR to do it? You think Higgins is going to be prime AJ Green at some point?

Tee Higgins is not a deep ball guy. Not in the NFL. He doesn't have the speed or quickness. Can he grab jump balls and be a threat deep? YES. As the main guy getting doubled? Probably not.

You cannot run a 4 and 5 wide offense based around Tee Higgins and a great slot guy. Literally every piece of data on Bengals WR performance from last season and the prior seasons points to the Bengals not having anything (reliable... looking at YOU, John Ross) to take the top off of an NFL defense.

You disagree? Based on what? I showed you what I based my conclusions off of. What are you basing yours on?