(05-01-2021, 02:20 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I'll find a new PG version for you. 

Not for me, but thanks.

(05-01-2021, 02:20 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Neither here nor there. He was available.

You didn't want him in the 2nd due to medical, yet you're now pimping Carman, who has medical.

I would have probably still taken him had we went with Sewell.

(05-01-2021, 02:22 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not for me, but thanks.

Yeah, thanks anyways lol

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2021JCarman.php

Being objective. Carman seems like a logical choice. Not what was expected, but neither was it a reach.

Highest need was interior line to improve run game, be at least average in pass protection, be mobile and athletic is a plus.

So Carman is a mobile road grader, that has experience mirroring edge rushers as an LT even with his short arms and poor technique because he is fluid for a big man and light on his feet. Meaning he still has a high ceiling left (enter Oline guru Pollack to coach that up).

From what I gathered from tweet rumors and such, the Bengals had their eye on him. I'd like to think that Landon was the target and once he was taken they traded back, but putting the clues together, I don't think Landon or Tevin were their target all along even though they had way higher starter grades and Carman had a developmental grade.

Landon C/G was a leader, smart, and technician. Stout in pass pro, not a road grader, ACL.
Tevin OT was a great OT, pretty good run blocker, but average pass pro due to mobility and balance, hip
Cosmi OTgreat mirror pass pro, not a road grader
Mayfield OT great mirror pass pro, not a road grader
Walker Little OT tall, pretty good pass pro and run blocker
Liam OT steady in pass blocking, but immobile and weak run blocking

If the best mobile road grader with passable pass blocking IOL was the target for the second round from the above wishlist, I think Pollack really did get HIS GUY.

The only ones who could move piles were Walker and Tevin, but their body types were tall and long for OT duty more than interior duty. Tevin wasn't mobile, and Walker was on the thinner side and not athletic. From the Alexander days, I am tired of catch and dance linemen, I want road graders that can pass block. So if Carman is a big body road grading dancing bear with short arms with experience being a tackle, wow.

The Bengals gambled that they could trade down if he had a late second round grade / early third round grade and people were looking for more OT types that had high starting grades on them. Carman would be a project more than an insta starter.

And to get 2 4th rounders to boot.

I'm sold.

(05-01-2021, 02:24 AM)Yogo Wrote: https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2021JCarman.php

Being objective.  Carman seems like a logical choice.  Not what was expected, but neither was it a reach.

Highest need was interior line to improve run game, be at least average in pass protection, be mobile and athletic is a plus.

So Carman is a mobile road grader, that has experience mirroring edge rushers as an LT even with his short arms and poor technique because he is fluid for a big man and light on his feet.  Meaning he still has a high ceiling left (enter Oline guru Pollack to coach that up).

From what I gathered from tweet rumors and such, the Bengals had their eye on him.  I'd like to think that Landon was the target and once he was taken they traded back, but putting the clues together, I don't think Landon or Tevin were their target all along even though they had way higher starter grades and Carman had a developmental grade.

Landon C/G was a leader, smart, and technician.  Stout in pass pro, not a road grader, ACL.
Tevin OT was a great OT, pretty good run blocker, but average pass pro due to mobility and balance, hip
Cosmi OTgreat mirror pass pro, not a road grader
Mayfield OT great mirror pass pro, not a road grader
Walker Little OT tall, pretty good pass pro and run blocker
Liam OT steady in pass blocking, but immobile and weak run blocking

If the best mobile road grader with passable pass blocking IOL was the target for the second round from the above wishlist, I think Pollack really did get HIS GUY.

The only ones who could move piles were Walker and Tevin, but their body types were tall and long for OT duty more than interior duty.  Tevin wasn't mobile, and Walker was on the thinner side and not athletic.  From the Alexander days, I am tired of catch and dance linemen, I want road graders that can pass block.  So if Carman is a big body road grading dancing bear with short arms with experience being a tackle, wow.

The Bengals gambled that they could trade down if he had a late second round grade / early third round grade and people were looking for more OT types that had high starting grades on them.  Carman would be a project more than an insta starter.

And to get 2 4th rounders to boot.

I'm sold.

Carman is either a home run or a bases loaded strike out. But either way we probably won't know for a couple seasons.

Best case scenario, he's 100 percent recovered from surgery on day 1 and can start learning. By mid to late season he could see a significant amount of snaps. But he's not really going to be an upgrade from any of the current guards for a bit. He's a solid athlete, he's strong and he's got great footwork... But dude is raw. That's going to take time.

Worst case scenario, his back injury costs him (in my opinion) his best feature: core strength. Without that, I'm not sure He even plays. He's big, strong and fast, but not smart. If the surgery takes away the strong or the fast, I'm not sure how he will do.

It's either a brilliant pick or super dumb, but we won't know for a while.


Either way, it answers my question the team had about tackles: they think we're good to go. And that's super concerning.

(04-30-2021, 10:49 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: He had back surgery he was injured.

Do you know who else had disc problems coming out of college? Rob Gronkowski.

Certainly something that requires due diligence. Obviously, the Bengals weren’t concerned enough by the medical questions to take him off their draft board. Ultimately, only time will tell. Unfortunately, that means we’ll all have to wait and see how this plays out over the next 3-4 years to judge this pick.

(05-01-2021, 03:15 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Do you know who else had disc problems coming out of college? Rob Gronkowski.

Certainly something that requires due diligence. Obviously, the Bengals weren’t concerned enough by the medical questions to take him off their draft board. Ultimately, only time will tell. Unfortunately, that means we’ll all have to wait and see how this plays out over the next 3-4 years to judge this pick.

Oddly enough he has stayed mostly healthy. I know one time he injured himself being drunk and celebrating.

(05-01-2021, 03:15 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Do you know who else had disc problems coming out of college? Rob Gronkowski.

Certainly something that requires due diligence. Obviously, the Bengals weren’t concerned enough by the medical questions to take him off their draft board. Ultimately, only time will tell. Unfortunately, that means we’ll all have to wait and see how this plays out over the next 3-4 years to judge this pick.

In fairness, this is the same medical staff that thought og was worth a first round pick at an ol spot 

I doubt he will play this year with that injury, if he does I will be surprised. Didn't Tiger Woods need like a year of rehab after that surgery?

(05-01-2021, 03:09 AM)Benton Wrote: Carman is either a home run or a bases loaded strike out. But either way we probably won't know for a couple seasons.

Best case scenario, he's 100 percent recovered from surgery on day 1 and can start learning. By mid to late season he could see a significant amount of snaps. But he's not really going to be an upgrade from any of the current guards for a bit. He's a solid athlete, he's strong and he's got great footwork... But dude is raw. That's going to take time.

Worst case scenario, his back injury costs him (in my opinion) his best feature: core strength. Without that, I'm not sure He even plays. He's big, strong and fast, but not smart. If the surgery takes away the strong or the fast, I'm not sure how he will do.

It's either a brilliant pick or super dumb, but we won't know for a while.


Either way, it answers my question the team had about tackles: they think we're good to go. And that's super concerning.

Why do you think he’s not smart? A Willie quote "Very intelligent. High football IQ," said Anderson 

(05-01-2021, 01:46 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  I don't know if I trust the Bengals to evaluate injuries.  He likely had a herniated disc, if he had back surgery.  I would not draft an offensive lineman that has a history of this type of injury.  I just don't think your back is ever the same once you have had a herniated disc especially if it was bad enough that it required surgery.

This is not true. In general, roughly 50% report decreased pain and disability, 25% report more pain, and 25% report no change. At 10 years after surgery, there is virtually no difference between those who had surgery versus those who didn’t.


Bottomline, you have to evaluate each person individually to determine how they are doing.

(05-01-2021, 03:24 AM)Benton Wrote: In fairness, this is the same medical staff that thought og was worth a first round pick at an ol spot 

None of them have a crystal ball to see the future. Unfortunately, only time will tell how his surgery will turn out. I specifically remember wanting the Bengals to avoid Gronk because of his back problems and draft Gresham instead. And look how that turned out.

(05-01-2021, 03:25 AM)wanga Wrote: Why do you think he’s not smart? A Willie quote "Very intelligent. High football IQ," said Anderson 

For clarity, playing smart. 

When things break down he relies on his physical ability, which doesn't always work out. He also tries to stop everything coming through, which just leaves him off balance. 

(05-01-2021, 03:33 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: None of them have a crystal ball to see the future. Unfortunately, only time will tell how his surgery will turn out. I specifically remember wanting the Bengals to avoid Gronk because of his back problems and draft Gresham instead. And look how that turned out.

Eh, gronk was never on my radar. Neither was gresham.

For the draft, most years I just focus on ol/dl as I haven't felt we've had a good one at the same time.... Well, ever. During the levi and steinbach and willie years, I bitched about the DL. We got better with Carlos and company, then I bitched about the OL.

(05-01-2021, 03:27 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: This is not true. In general, roughly 50% report decreased pain and disability, 25% report more pain, and 25% report no change. At 10 years after surgery, there is virtually no difference between those who had surgery versus those who didn’t.


Bottomline, you have to evaluate each person individually to determine how they are doing.

Yeah normal people, I doubt he will be able to able to do heavy squats or deadlifts for at least a year which will lower his functional strength. People seem to really underestimate disc injuries. If he plays right away I think it would be a mistake.

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(05-01-2021, 04:10 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: Yeah normal people, I doubt he will be able to able to do heavy squats or deadlifts for at least a year which will lower his functional strength. People seem to really underestimate disc injuries. If he plays right away I think it would be a mistake.

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Did he have a microdiscectomy or a lumbar fusion?

(05-01-2021, 03:44 AM)Benton Wrote: Eh, gronk was never on my radar. Neither was gresham.

For the draft, most years I just focus on ol/dl as I haven't felt we've had a good one at the same time.... Well, ever. During the levi and steinbach and willie years, I bitched about the DL. We got better with Carlos and company, then I bitched about the OL.

Huh? In 2015 we had a DL with Geno (All Pro), Dunlap (Pro Bowl), Michael Johnson, and Peko.

The OL had Whit (All Pro), Zeitler, Boling, and Andre. The only weak link was Bodine, but no line has 5 studs at every position.

(05-01-2021, 03:40 AM)Benton Wrote: For clarity, playing smart. 

When things break down he relies on his physical ability, which doesn't always work out. He also tries to stop everything coming through, which just leaves him off balance. 

Seems to be a discrepancy between your thoughts and big Willies on his football smarts here. Time will tell. 

(05-01-2021, 03:40 AM)Benton Wrote: For clarity, playing smart. 

When things break down he relies on his physical ability, which doesn't always work out. He also tries to stop everything coming through, which just leaves him off balance. 

That sounds like...just about every college lineman.  Sewell and Cosmi did the exact same thing and got away with it because they're premium athletes.  That doesn't make any of them stupid.

The success of this pick probably boils down to his medical.  For umpteen years we have witnessed Tobin operate with a flagrant disregard for injury concerns in the first round - usually leading to disastrous results.  This year he traded back and took his MASH guy in the 2nd.  If Walterfootball is giving Carmen an A+, that inspires some confidence for me - that guy likes to shit on the Bengals for no reason.  Hell, the guy who I was pounding the table for(Ojulari) has some serious medical stuff too.  All things equal, I think that I feel better about Carmen than I would have about Jenkins.  We'll see how she plays out.  Plenty of football left as they say.  Maybe XSF, Carmen, and Williams all scrub out of the league in two years' time.  Maybe 1/3 or 2/3 out of that bunch stay healthy and play lights out for a long time.  Going for the back surgery guy with high upside is maybe not what I would have personally done, but as with the Chase pick I can understand why they did it.  They're operating with a lot more information. Hopefully this guy is a real deal ass kicker and his back is fine from here on out.