(05-06-2021, 09:04 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: Just as I thought you can't give me an example.  Must be super common lol.

You didn't read any of that at all... or else you would have read that it is.

The NFL doesn't just give out surgical information on players like that and studies have to be done over decades... I provided those studies.

Why ask questions if you aren't actually interested in the answers? You're choosing to be ignorant and uninformed. But, hey, at least you're happy.

Here's another article about it from Sports Illustrated. This isn't for you, you clearly just like to stay in the dark and talk off the top of your head, but for anyone else reading who wants to jnderstand herniated disk injuries in athletes: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/.amp/edge/2015/09/03/rothman-institute-pro-athletes-back-injuries-tony-romo-dwight-howard

(05-06-2021, 09:09 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You didn't read any of that at all... or else you would have read that it is.

The NFL doesn't just give out surgical information on players like that and studies have to be done over decades... I provided those studies.

Why ask questions if you aren't actually interested in the answers? You're choosing to be ignorant and uninformed. But, hey, at least you're happy.

No I actually read them.  I am still waiting for examples of OL who had this and returned to be an effective starter for at least 3 years.

(05-06-2021, 09:13 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: No I actually read them.  I am still waiting for examples of OL who had this and returned to be an effective starter for at least 3 years.

The NFL doesn't release surgical information on every player. You are asking for specific player names and medical records. Those aren't made public. ... That fact doesn't make you correct.

Those studies were done over long periods of time and reference not only NFL players and offensive linemen specifically,  but other football positions and other athletes. Do you dispute their validity or findings? If so, with what information are you armed with to do so?

If you have actual information that disproves them, feel free to share. If you have no information of that nature, then what are you basing your opinion on?

^ That's rhetorical. You have no information contrary to the studies and articles I linked. Therefore, your opinion is uninformed and based on.... NOTHING. That makes it worthless.

(05-05-2021, 09:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you’re saying Jackson Carman is a second round pick and far from a sure thing?

Yes he isn't a sure thing. 

(05-06-2021, 10:12 AM)PDub80 Wrote: The NFL doesn't release surgical information on every player. You are asking for specific player names and medical records. Those aren't made public. ... That fact doesn't make you correct.

Those studies were done over long periods of time and reference not only NFL players and offensive linemen specifically,  but other football positions and other athletes. Do you dispute their validity or findings? If so, with what information are you armed with to do so?

If you have actual information that disproves them, feel free to share. If you have no information of that nature, then what are you basing your opinion on?

^ That's rhetorical. You have no information contrary to the studies and articles I linked. Therefore, your opinion is uninformed and based on.... NOTHING. That makes it worthless.

The studies really are not very helpful in determining decreased performance that is why I would like examples.

(05-06-2021, 10:34 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: The studies really are not very helpful in determining decreased performance that is why I would like examples.

^ THAT point makes sense. I will work on compiling this info as it would be interesting to cross reference.

Something really tough with this stuff is determining severity, age vs recovery, etc.

(05-05-2021, 09:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you’re saying Jackson Carman is a second round pick and far from a sure thing?

No draft pick is a sure thing....     Especially when you consider higher round = higher expectations...

Might be a fine player but never live up to the draft status. or fan expectations which can be out there  (not just talking carman  but anyone)

(05-06-2021, 10:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ THAT point makes sense. I will work on compiling this info as it would be interesting to cross reference.

Something really tough with this stuff is determining severity, age vs recovery, etc.

Did you even watch this video I linked discussing Caleb Farley who had a similar injury? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jVe3EvHNY&t=110s

(05-06-2021, 10:34 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: The studies really are not very helpful in determining decreased performance that is why I would like examples.

(05-06-2021, 10:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: ^ THAT point makes sense. I will work on compiling this info as it would be interesting to cross reference.

Something really tough with this stuff is determining severity, age vs recovery, etc.

Quoted from this article from Spineuniverse: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spineuniverse.com/amp/47043


"Earlier this month, New England Patriot’s Rob Gronkowski underwent surgery to repair a disc herniation and is not expected to return to the field this season. Clinical outcomes in elite professional athletes after spine injury are difficult to predict, and players and their teams eagerly await news of expected recovery time and return to the field.

Researchers from Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine have found high return to play rates—80.8% (42/52)—after lumbar discectomy for lumbar disc herniation in a study involving National Football League (NFL) linemen. These athletes successfully returned to play an average of 33 games over 3 years after surgery, with 63.5% (33/52) becoming starters after treatment.


However, our research certainly has proven otherwise,” Dr. Hsu said, adding that no significant difference was found in the athletes’ performance after surgery as compared to before surgery.

In addition, the study showed a higher than expected return to play rate (85.7%) in the 7 linemen who required revision surgery, noted Dr. Hsu, who also is the Clifford C. Raisbeck Distinguished Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery and Director of Research for the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.

“Again, that common thought was that a revision surgery would be career ending, but we were able to show that players have an 85% chance having a productive career after revision surgery,” Dr. Hsu noted"



^ Some notes


- This is also discussing some more severe procedures. Gronk had very serious back injuries in college. Much more than typical herniated disk. These injuries were recurring.


- This article doesn't disclose age of the players or related%relative injuries.


I have done a fair amount if reading on this type of injury after having one myself from weightlifting. I see no reason why this should be a concern for Carman long term. But, as with any player, time will tell.


Hell, Jonah Williams had never had an injury.... hurt first practice. Munoz had serious knee injury back when it was a death sentence.... HOF career.

(05-06-2021, 10:48 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Quoted from this article from Spineuniverse: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spineuniverse.com/amp/47043


"Earlier this month, New England Patriot’s Rob Gronkowski underwent surgery to repair a disc herniation and is not expected to return to the field this season. Clinical outcomes in elite professional athletes after spine injury are difficult to predict, and players and their teams eagerly await news of expected recovery time and return to the field.

Researchers from Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine have found high return to play rates—80.8% (42/52)—after lumbar discectomy for lumbar disc herniation in a study involving National Football League (NFL) linemen. These athletes successfully returned to play an average of 33 games over 3 years after surgery, with 63.5% (33/52) becoming starters after treatment.


However, our research certainly has proven otherwise,” Dr. Hsu said, adding that no significant difference was found in the athletes’ performance after surgery as compared to before surgery.

In addition, the study showed a higher than expected return to play rate (85.7%) in the 7 linemen who required revision surgery, noted Dr. Hsu, who also is the Clifford C. Raisbeck Distinguished Professor of Orthopaedic Surgery and Director of Research for the Department of Orthopaedic Surgery at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.

“Again, that common thought was that a revision surgery would be career ending, but we were able to show that players have an 85% chance having a productive career after revision surgery,” Dr. Hsu noted"



^ Some notes


- This is also discussing some more severe procedures. Gronk had very serious back injuries in college. Much more than typical herniated disk. These injuries were recurring.


- This article doesn't disclose age of the players or related%relative injuries.


I have done a fair amount if reading on this type of injury after having one myself from weightlifting. I see no reason why this should be a concern for Carman long term. But, as with any player, time will tell.


Hell, Jonah Williams had never had an injury.... hurt first practice. Munoz had serious knee injury back when it was a death sentence.... HOF career.

Again what does that information tell us, he will most likely have a short career 33 games over 3 years, and only a 63% chance of becoming a starter?  And you don't think that is high risk? In the first study it says there is an 80% return to play rate, so there is a 20% chance the 2nd round draft pick won't even be able to play. Why take the risk?

(05-06-2021, 10:34 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: The studies really are not very helpful in determining decreased performance that is why I would like examples.

No you are actually just looking for a way to argue what has been proven by medicine and science. Once you were shown that the injury is common amongst professional athletes across the entirety of professional sports you are now turning to a single position group as if it is entirely different than any other position group in football when it comes to the procedure and recovery.

Here are the facts of the spine study that you are looking for:

"5. The study also revealed the players' performance scores, based on NFL game statistics, didn't change significantly between those players with upper-level CDH and those with lower-level injuries.

 
6. The researchers concluded "most NFL players who undergo cervical spinal surgeries for CDH are able to resume their careers." Additionally, no significant variances exist between players with upper-level versus lower-level cervical spine injures, in terms of return to play and performance level."


Any other questions?



https://www.beckersspine.com/spine/item/33548-67-of-nfl-players-return-to-high-level-of-play-after-cervical-spine-surgery-6-highlights.html

(05-06-2021, 11:22 AM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: Again what does that information tell us, he will most likely have a short career 33 games over 3 years, and only a 63% chance of becoming a starter?  And you don't think that is high risk?  In the first study it says there is an 80% return to play rate, so there is a 20% chance the 2nd round draft pick won't even be able to play.  Why take the risk?

Let's just face the truth of the matter. You like to argue. You are not looking for objective data you are cherry picking anything that meets your argument without using it in context of it's entirety. No medical procedure is performed without some amount of risk. Period. The studies clearly show that there is a high success rate with the procedure and that players return to their level of performance after the procedure. You are trying to use those with significant injuries, far different from that of Carman, to make it appear he is in the same category as them.

You have even referred to him as having an injury"history" which could not be further from the truth. Tyler Eifert had an injury "history" Jackson Carman does not.

(05-06-2021, 11:52 AM)OSUfan Wrote: No you are actually just looking for a way to argue what has been proven by medicine and science. Once you were shown that the injury is common amongst professional athletes across the entirety of professional sports you are now turning to a single position group as if it is entirely different than any other position group in football when it comes to the procedure and recovery.

Here are the facts of the spine study that you are looking for:

"5. The study also revealed the players' performance scores, based on NFL game statistics, didn't change significantly between those players with upper-level CDH and those with lower-level injuries.

 
6. The researchers concluded "most NFL players who undergo cervical spinal surgeries for CDH are able to resume their careers." Additionally, no significant variances exist between players with upper-level versus lower-level cervical spine injures, in terms of return to play and performance level."


Any other questions?



https://www.beckersspine.com/spine/item/33548-67-of-nfl-players-return-to-high-level-of-play-after-cervical-spine-surgery-6-highlights.html

your making my point for me thanks!

I bolded the parts that you seemed to ignore, 28% never return to play that is significant, recovery time is 9 months which means no training camp?   I guess the short 3 year career doesn't concern you?  And the performance is based on the differences between upper and lower spine not people that had the injury and no injury at all.
 

1. The study found 67 percent of players with upper-level CDH returned to playing football following surgery and rehabilitation.
 
2. Seventy-two percent of those players with lower-level injures returned to play following surgery and rehabilitation.
 
3. Recovery time averaged nine months for all players.
 
4. The researchers found, on average, players continued playing in the NFL for approximately 44 games and three years post-surgery.
 
5. The study also revealed the players' performance scores, based on NFL game statistics, didn't change significantly between those players with upper-level CDH and those with lower-level injuries.
 
6. The researchers concluded "most NFL players who undergo cervical spinal surgeries for CDH are able to resume their careers." Additionally, no significant variances exist between players with upper-level versus lower-level cervical spine injures, in terms of return to play and performance level.

(05-06-2021, 12:04 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: your making my point for me thanks!

I bolded the parts that you seemed to ignore, 28% never return to play that is significant, recovery time is 9 months which means no training camp?   I guess the short 3 year career doesn't concern you?  And the performance is based on the differences between upper and lower spine not people that had the injury and no injury at all.
 

1. The study found 67 percent of players with upper-level CDH returned to playing football following surgery and rehabilitation.
 
2. Seventy-two percent of those players with lower-level injures returned to play following surgery and rehabilitation.
 
3. Recovery time averaged nine months for all players.
 
4. The researchers found, on average, players continued playing in the NFL for approximately 44 games and three years post-surgery.
 
5. The study also revealed the players' performance scores, based on NFL game statistics, didn't change significantly between those players with upper-level CDH and those with lower-level injuries.
 
6. The researchers concluded "most NFL players who undergo cervical spinal surgeries for CDH are able to resume their careers." Additionally, no significant variances exist between players with upper-level versus lower-level cervical spine injures, in terms of return to play and performance level.

Not concerned at all with the points you bolded. Your lack of objectivity is what brings you to a point of concern. So a player has this procedure and then returns to play at the previous level of performance for longer than the average NFL career of 2.5 years. Nope I am good with that. 

Reading comprehension is brutal ain't it?

"...in terms of return to play and performance level."


Let's be realistic you are trying to lump Carman into a category of injury that is not true. You are comparing the procedure he had with those of players that had exhibited serious spine injuries and history of injuries. Carman does not have an injury "history" as you have previously eluded to. Compared to most in the sport he is a model of health. Tyler Eifert has an injury "history".

(05-06-2021, 12:11 PM)OSUfan Wrote: We have us an internet mouth is what we have here. 

No 3 years after surgery does not bother me at all. Why? Because I look at data objectively. I guess every draft selection should be of major concern to you since the average NFL career is 2.5 years. So since a player has a medical procedure and then returns to play at the previous level for longer than the average NFL career.....Nope not concerned at all. We can take it a step further in that the average career of an NFL O lineman is 3.5 years so nope still good with it.

You are no doubt a glass half empty guy. Must suck going through life with such a negative mindset all of the time and I have no doubt that you do not reserve it for just the Bengals.

 Dude you are pretty stubborn, I have pointed out plenty of reasons that it was a risky pick the 28% chance that he will not be able to play is not enough for you?  The bottom line is it was a risky pick just based on the study that you linked.

(05-06-2021, 11:52 AM)OSUfan Wrote: No you are actually just looking for a way to argue what has been proven by medicine and science. Once you were shown that the injury is common amongst professional athletes across the entirety of professional sports you are now turning to a single position group as if it is entirely different than any other position group in football when it comes to the procedure and recovery.

Here are the facts of the spine study that you are looking for:

"5. The study also revealed the players' performance scores, based on NFL game statistics, didn't change significantly between those players with upper-level CDH and those with lower-level injuries.

 
6. The researchers concluded "most NFL players who undergo cervical spinal surgeries for CDH are able to resume their careers." Additionally, no significant variances exist between players with upper-level versus lower-level cervical spine injures, in terms of return to play and performance level."


Any other questions?



https://www.beckersspine.com/spine/item/33548-67-of-nfl-players-return-to-high-level-of-play-after-cervical-spine-surgery-6-highlights.html

Yeah, I got a question. What body part is the cervical spine? It’s the neck. So if you’re going to lecture people about the statistics of a surgical procedure at least use the correct body part.

Bonus Question for extra credit: What statistics does an OG have to to determine their level of performance pre and post surgery?

(05-06-2021, 01:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, I got a question. What body part is the cervical spine?  It’s the neck. So if you’re going to lecture people about the statistics of a surgical procedure at least use the correct body part.

Bonus Question for extra credit: What statistics does an OG have to to determine their level of performance pre and post surgery?

I understand you dont have any real information on this but in your opinion of a guy that finished his season, got the surgery, and was doing football drills 6 weeks later. We are also hearing the coaching staff and scout staff say he will be competing for an IOL spot this year. 

Would you say it was on the minor or major side?

Question for anyone is this thread that cares to answer it. What is the average career length of an nfl player?

I believe the answer is less than 4 years. Probably 3.8 if I’m blindly guessing. If Carmen comes and plays well for about that amount of time then he falling in line with Nfl averages. If he plays longer than that then it’s just icing on the cake. Like most other players. Not to mention the obvious fact that he could far outplay the average.

I like the trade, I like the pick and I like the additional players we got from the trade. I look forward to seeing them all become productive players for us.

Now, for the love of everything holy, stop squealing


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(05-06-2021, 03:26 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Question for anyone is this thread that cares to answer it.  What is the average career length of an nfl player?

I believe the answer is less than 4 years.  Probably 3.8 if I’m blindly guessing.  If Carmen comes and plays well for about that amount of time then he falling in line with Nfl averages.  If he plays longer than that then it’s just icing on the cake.  Like most other players.  Not to mention the obvious fact that he could far outplay the average.

I like the trade, I like the pick and I like the additional players we got from the trade.  I look forward to seeing them all become productive players for us.  

Now, for the love of everything holy, stop squealing


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The average is probably that low because of 4th-7th round picks, I wonder what the average is for 1st and 2nd  round picks. I doubt you would consider it a success if we only ever got 4 years out of our 1st and 2nd rounders.

(05-06-2021, 03:26 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Question for anyone is this thread that cares to answer it.  What is the average career length of an nfl player?

I believe the answer is less than 4 years.  Probably 3.8 if I’m blindly guessing.  If Carmen comes and plays well for about that amount of time then he falling in line with Nfl averages.  If he plays longer than that then it’s just icing on the cake.  Like most other players.  Not to mention the obvious fact that he could far outplay the average.

I like the trade, I like the pick and I like the additional players we got from the trade.  I look forward to seeing them all become productive players for us.  

Now, for the love of everything holy, stop squealing


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The average is 2.5 years if you take it as a whole. If you go to just offensive linemen the average is 3.5 years.