I don't think "Carson Syndrome" existed. Fans thought it might entering the 2006 season, but Palmer showed no real evidence of that being valid in his play. He tore it up through the air, fumbled too much, and the Bengals choked away two games in the last three. Missing the playoffs is not attributable to Palmer being inordinately skittish in the pocket or some such.

Burrow might need a little time to get into rhythm, but it will certainly not be a product of some mental "syndrome".

I don't think many of you are remembering what happened with Palmer.

Many people claimed there was no way Palmer would be back to start the '06 season.  Or that if he did return it would not be close to his '05 form.  But Palmer busted his ass in rehab and started '06 just where he left off in '05.  352 yards and 2 tds in the second game of the season.  Net week he throws 4 tds as we beat the Steelers on their home field.  The O-line fell apart around him.  Braham had a career ending injury in the second week of the season.  Levi Jones only played 6 games.  Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.  Palmer was sacked almost twice as many times in '06 (36) as he was in '05 (19).  but his performance was almost identical

.................'05.....'06
Yds........... 4th.....5th
TD.............1st.....2nd
Rating........2nd.....6th

Palmer was not playing scared in 2006.  He was actually playing tougher than he had to in '05.


Also in 2008 Palmer tore a ligament in his elbow, sat out one game, played against the Eagles with a torn ligament in his elbow before deciding he needed surgery.

OSU fans hate him, and I think a lot of midwest types tried to paint him a a soft surfer dude, but Palmer was damn tough,

(05-13-2021, 10:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think many of you are remembering what happened with Palmer.

Many people claimed there was no way Palmer would be back to start the '06 season.  Or that if he did return it would not be close to his '05 form.  But Palmer busted his ass in rehab and started '06 just where he left off in '05.  352 yards and 2 tds in the second game of the season.  Net week he throws 4 tds as we beat the Steelers on their home field.  The O-line fell apart around him.  Braham had a career ending injury in the second week of the season.  Levi Jones only played 6 games.  Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.  Palmer was sacked almost twice as many times in '06 (36) as he was in '05 (19).  but his performance was almost identical

.................'05.....'06
Yds........... 4th.....5th
TD.............1st.....2nd
Rating........2nd.....6th

Palmer was not playing scared in 2006.  He was actually playing tougher than he had to in '05.


Also in 2008 Palmer tore a ligament in his elbow, sat out one game, played against the Eagles with a torn ligament in his elbow before deciding he needed surgery.

OSU fans hate him, and I think a lot of midwest types tried to paint him a a soft surfer dude, but Palmer was damn tough,

Carson even admitted after the '06 season that he hadn't been stepping into his throws.

Maybe you couldn't see it because the camera followed the ball and didn't stay focused on Palmer after his throws, but I was at every home game and saw it for myself.

We're not talking about '08, we're talking about '06.  I have the eye test and Palmer's words that he wasn't following through.  What's your evidence that he was?

(05-13-2021, 10:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: We're not talking about '08, we're talking about '06.  I have the eye test and Palmer's words that he wasn't following through.  What's your evidence that he was?

If Carson was not stepping into his throws in '06 then stepping into throws doesn't make any difference.  I watched every game also and he threw the ball as well in '06 as '05.  

He finished 2nd in tds, 4th in yards, and 6th in passer rating despite being sacked almost twice as often as in '05.

If that is "Carson Syndrome" then I ray that Burrow gets it.

(05-13-2021, 11:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Carson was not stepping into his throws in '06 then stepping into throws doesn't make any difference.  I watched every game also and he threw the ball as well in '06 as '05.  

He finished 2nd in tds, 4th in yards, and 6th in passer rating despite being sacked almost twice as often as in '05.

If that is "Carson Syndrome" then I ray that Burrow gets it.

It wasn't every throw, but he would pull up whenever someone was near his legs.

Imagine how much better he would have been if he was following through on every throw.

You want our quarterback to underperform?

(05-14-2021, 06:13 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: It wasn't every throw, but he would pull up whenever someone was near his legs.

Imagine how much better he would have been if he was following through on every throw.

You want our quarterback to underperform?

So, how many throws are we talking? And what were the outcomes of those throws? How many TDs did he throw when he “pulled up”? How many yards, what was his completion percentage? Interceptions?

You’re saying that your “eye test” and Carson’s words prove your point, but they don’t. Your point is that “Carson didn’t follow through on his throws when they were near his leg, so he performed worse on those throws.” However, you have no evidence to back that up. You just believe that since he didn’t “follow through”, he had to have performed worse.

There is strong evidence that Carson had a very strong year in 2006, Fred already posted that. If you can post some data on the information your talking about, then that would be helpful to furthering this conversation.

(05-13-2021, 04:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: 100% true.  

Carson always seemed like the California Hollywood type that never had to face adversity.  He also seemed like the type that never commanded much respect in the locker room and wasn't much of a leader.  That was especially bad when you consider we had guys like Henry (RIP), Odell, and Chad, and it wouldn't have been as bad if we had a head coach that was a leader, but we all know Marvin was far from a leader.

Like I always say, I love him for his time here and glad he finally stepped up to Mike Brown, but we need more of a leader.

Like Nate said, I think Burrow is mentally strong enough to come back strong this season, but I just don't know if the line will allow him to play to his full potential.


I'm hoping that we go all-in on the offensive line next season and bring in some players that leave Burrow with no doubt that he'll always be protected.  

Like I said, hopefully our coaching staff is smart enough to normally get the ball out of his hands quickly.

Seems like all in on the line would have been the move this offseason. Lots of quality o lineman were available in FA, and in the draft. Half measures are what Mike Brown does.

(05-14-2021, 08:45 AM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Seems like all in on the line would have been the move this offseason.  Lots of quality o lineman were available in FA, and in the draft.  Half measures are what Mike Brown does.

They addressed it in free agency and with several draft picks. What exactly are we wanting here? 

(05-13-2021, 03:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Will Burrow have Carson Syndrome?  He wasn't rolled over from behind, but Carson's fear just seemed to be a fear of anyone being near his knee.

Carson was a pretty boy California snowflake with a weak mental make up. Burrow is a mentally tough Ohio boy. He will be fine. 

(05-14-2021, 08:01 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: So, how many throws are we talking? And what were the outcomes of those throws? How many TDs did he throw when he “pulled up”? How many yards, what was his completion percentage? Interceptions?

You’re saying that your “eye test” and Carson’s words prove your point, but they don’t. Your point is that “Carson didn’t follow through on his throws when they were near his leg, so he performed worse on those throws.” However, you have no evidence to back that up. You just believe that since he didn’t “follow through”, he had to have performed worse.

There is strong evidence that Carson had a very strong year in 2006, Fred already posted that. If you can post some data on the information your talking about, then that would be helpful to furthering this conversation.

Carson's own words don't prove my point about Carson?

Are you seriously trying to claim that?

It was a lot of the throws when anyone was near his knee.  I obviously don't know the percentages or any answers like that to your smart ass answers, but I know some balls sailed high and were just off the mark.  

He had a strong year but it could have been even better.

Nah. Week 1 Burrow is going to drop back 50 times and we are going to be holding our collective breath.

(05-14-2021, 10:47 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Carson's own words don't prove my point about Carson?

Are you seriously trying to claim that?

It was a lot of the throws when anyone was near his knee.  I obviously don't know the percentages or any answers like that to your smart ass answers, but I know some balls sailed high and were just off the mark.  

He had a strong year but it could have been even better.

No, Brad. I’m saying that Carson’s words don’t prove your point. Your point isn’t that Carson didn’t follow through, your point is that Carson didn’t follow through and it affected his performance. That’s why it doesn’t prove your point. That’s why I asked if you had the data to back it up because it is completely possible to throw a good pass with bad mechanics. You see these instances every year where a QB will throw a great pass off balance, or on his back foot etc.

If you don’t want a smart ass answer, don’t make a dumb ass remark. Saying that he could have had a stronger year when you have no idea how his “not following through” affected his performance (or didn’t) is goofy.

All Carson-slagging aside, the guy had a major knee injury in the post-season, didn't miss a single game in 2006, and played pretty well.  Maybe his approach to the situation wasn't as bad as we are tying to make it seem.  We need to figure out what is caution and smart football and what is chicken-shit cowardly stuff.

We are the same fanbase who want to blame Burrow's injury on ZT for calling a zillion passing plays, but we don't want them to play scared in 2021 so I guess we're going to get on ZT's case if he dares to shift the offensive focus to the running game?  Meh, I don't get it other than just to go on about how Burrow is an absolute machine of a man.  Hopefully everything works out, but I secretly wouldn't mind if Burrow is a bit cautious in 2021.  Secretly I'll admit that.  On here I'll say that it's amazing that we finally have a QB who could break every bone in his body and insist they keep him on the field because he's not some coward from California.

We have a bit of a conundrum, in a sense.  We want Burrow to play like a man possessed but we also know if he gets hurt that we're going to go right back to rooting for a tank job AGAIN.  We want all the groceries in one bag, but we don't want the bag to be heavy.  Ok, rant mode off.  40+ passes for Burrow in week 1, book it (I need to come up with an official number on this, but hey...BOOK IT!).

(05-14-2021, 11:15 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: No, Brad. I’m saying that Carson’s words don’t prove your point. Your point isn’t that Carson didn’t follow through, your point is that Carson didn’t follow through and it affected his performance. That’s why it doesn’t prove your point. That’s why I asked if you had the data to back it up because it is completely possible to throw a good pass with bad mechanics. You see these instances every year where a QB will throw a great pass off balance, or on his back foot etc.

If you don’t want a smart ass answer, don’t make a dumb ass remark. Saying that he could have had a stronger year when you have no idea how his “not following through” affected his performance (or didn’t) is goofy.

I said that some balls sailed high and some were off the mark.

Did you ignore that part of my post?

Why do you think quarterbacks work on mechanics if they have no impact on how they throw the ball?

My remark was perfect.

It's a results-oriented world and how things turn out affects how people see it. Jimmy Garoppolo tore his acl in 2019 running like a madman for a meaningless 1st down rather than stepping out of bounds in a surefire loss in the last minutes of the 4th quarter. No one remembers him as "Fearless ultra competitor" Jimmy Garopplo...rather, the first thing that comes to mind with him is "injury-prone and about to lose his job for it" Jimmy Garoppolo.

Burrow is a human being and the first time he shows an inclination for self-preservation in 2021 we're going to praise him for playing smart football and not getting himself killed for nothing.

(05-14-2021, 11:44 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I said that some balls sailed high and some were off the mark.

Did you ignore that part of my post?

Why do you think quarterbacks work on mechanics if they have no impact on how they throw the ball?

My remark was perfect.

I didn’t, because I’m addressing it? You’re saying that he sailed passes because he didn’t “follow through” when someone was around his knee. The problem is, you don’t have any data to back that up. You’ve admitted you don’t have any data for that situation and you’re going off of your eye test. Well, 2006 was nearly 15 years ago and I’m not going to trust your memory on something that happened in a football game nearly 15 years ago. I won’t trust anyone’s. The data that we have available to us is that Carson was 2nd in touchdowns, 6th in rating, 6th in ANY/A and 5th in yards. Carson was 11th in completion percentage but his career completion percentage is 62.5%. His completion percentage that year was...62.3%. The evidence shows that 2005 was an outlier as far as his completion percentage. In fact, that is the only season of his entire career he completed more than 65% of his passes. If you want to make the argument that he didn’t “follow through” on his passes for the rest of his career because of his knee injury, then go at it. I think there is enough data to display that it was just Carson.

Also, I never said that mechanics don’t impact passes. I’m saying that they don’t ALWAYS impact passes. A QB can throw pin point passes off their back foot, or while off balance. Just because a QB doesn’t follow through on a pass doesn’t inherently mean that the pass is bad.

(05-13-2021, 10:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think many of you are remembering what happened with Palmer.

Many people claimed there was no way Palmer would be back to start the '06 season.  Or that if he did return it would not be close to his '05 form.  But Palmer busted his ass in rehab and started '06 just where he left off in '05.  352 yards and 2 tds in the second game of the season.  Net week he throws 4 tds as we beat the Steelers on their home field.  The O-line fell apart around him.  Braham had a career ending injury in the second week of the season.  Levi Jones only played 6 games.  Bobbie Williams missed 3 games.  Palmer was sacked almost twice as many times in '06 (36) as he was in '05 (19).  but his performance was almost identical

.................'05.....'06
Yds........... 4th.....5th
TD.............1st.....2nd
Rating........2nd.....6th

Palmer was not playing scared in 2006.  He was actually playing tougher than he had to in '05.


Also in 2008 Palmer tore a ligament in his elbow, sat out one game, played against the Eagles with a torn ligament in his elbow before deciding he needed surgery.

OSU fans hate him, and I think a lot of midwest types tried to paint him a a soft surfer dude, but Palmer was damn tough,

Fairly certain he got injured early on against the giants but played the entire game (and nearly upset the defending super bowl champs). Sat out the following week against Cleveland. Played the following week against Dallas. Then finally shut himself down for the season.

In any case you’re absolutely right. Far too many Bengal fans refuse to accept that Carson was a tough QB. I’m willing to bet the current Carson haters are the same people who turned on him when he said he wasn’t an Ohio state fan in the summer of 2008

(05-13-2021, 04:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nope, the one thing I always said about Burrow before we even drafted him was he was much more strong mentally
than Palmer ever was.

I can count on one hand the number of people I know who risked their entire career to stand up to an incompetent boss.

(05-13-2021, 08:08 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: I think there’s quite a difference between Carson and Burrow.After Burrow gets roughed up a few times,and he will,then that competitive spirit of his will kick in,and he’ll be back to normal.Besides,he’ll be wearing a brace on that knee the entire season for added support.These new lightweight high tech braces they have today provide excellent support without hindering mobility.I think having the brace with also give a little more confidence with the knee.

https://www.orthoguidelines.org/go/cpg/detail.cfm?id=1259

Quote: Three moderate strength studies compared the use of functional bracing following ACL reconstruction to either the use of no brace or a neoprene knee sleeve. 16, 69, 94 None of the studies showed statistically significant benefit

https://www.orthoguidelines.org/go/cpg/detail.cfm?id=1260

Quote: One moderate strength and one low strength study demonstrated no reduction in ACL injury rates with ACL prophylactic bracing in high school and collegiate American football players

(05-14-2021, 01:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: https://www.orthoguidelines.org/go/cpg/detail.cfm?id=1259


https://www.orthoguidelines.org/go/cpg/detail.cfm?id=1260

Ehh that's fine.  If a brace had any negative impact on his playing he'd refuse to wear the thing anyways.