After a mini overhaul last offseason, the 2020 Bengals defense suffered an abysmal season, riddled with injuries and some player discontent.

Move forward to now, the Bengals completed another mini overhaul to the defensive roster, and for at least this Bengal fan, the spirits and expectations are high. (I mean, the defense has nowhere to go but up from last year, right?)

With players like Reader and Waynes set to return from injury, the addition of Trey Hendrickson and Larry Ogunjobi should bolster what was a weak and feeble DL last year. The drafting of players like Sample, Shelvin and Ossai should provide good depth to work into the rotation. The addition of an assassin like Mike Hilton at Slot Corner, paired with Bates and Bell at Safety, I feel like TEs and RBs are finally going to struggle catching the ball in the middle of the field and in the flats. The Boundary CBs will be a bit of a question, until they get settled in. I feel like if he's back to full health, Waynes will make people forget about Jackson. Phillips is continuing to develop into a quality corner, Chidobe and Apple should provide quality depth, as they are adept in the zone coverage that Anarumo likes to run.

(05-25-2021, 08:43 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: After a mini overhaul last offseason, the 2020 Bengals defense suffered an abysmal season, riddled with injuries and some player discontent.

Move forward to now, the Bengals completed another mini overhaul to the defensive roster, and for at least this Bengal fan, the spirits and expectations are high.  (I mean, the defense has nowhere to go but up from last year, right?)

With players like Reader and Waynes set to return from injury, the addition of Trey Hendrickson and Larry Ogunjobi should bolster what was a weak and feeble DL last year.  The drafting of players like Sample and Shelvin should provide good depth to work into the rotation.  The addition of an assassin like Mike Hilton at Slot Corner, paired with Bates and Bell at Safety, I feel like TEs and RBs are finally going to struggle catching the ball in the middle of the field and in the flats.  The Boundary CBs will be a bit of a question, until they get settled in. I feel like if he's back to full health, Waynes will make people forget about Jackson.  Phillips is continuing to develop into a quality corner, Chidobe and Apple should provide quality depth, as they are adept in the zone coverage that Anarumo likes to run.

Agree. I think that unless the injury bug devastates it again this year, this defense has the makings of something that can be very nasty. Lou has brought in a lot of guys who like to hit.

My biggest concern is playing too much zone which can be easily exploited by just about any QB and TE/WR with chemistry.

The starting defense (and offense for that matter) is strong and full of young dynamic players. I can see us starting the year well and surprising people. I just think we lack depth and I don't think the moves we made have in the offseason have changed that really (apart from corner). Rookies are such an unknown so it's hard to ever really know if they will be a significant upgrade. I worry that the team isnt well positioned to handle injuries to multiple position groups. Would really have liked to see an extra vet for the OL and LBs.

I think we massively improved our secondary this off season.

Going from WJ3, Alexander, Phillips as our starting 3 with LeShaun Sims taking 606 snaps and both Tony Brown and Jalen Davis taking about a game or two's worth of snaps (95 snaps for Tony, 72 for Jalen) to Waynes, Awuzie, Hilton being our starting 3 with Phillips, Eli Apple and Ricardo Allen capable of coming in and taking those injury snaps is a huge deal. Maybe Awuzie is a step down from WJ3 (although you can argue he's a better scheme fit so may play better), but I think Hilton is objectively an upgrade over Alexander and Phillips could always step in for Waynes if he struggles, so our depth and talent at CB has taken a rather large step up this off season.

The defensive line has also really improved. Hendrickson may be a lateral move from Lawson or he may be a slight downgrade, but Ogunjobi will play better than Atkins did in 2020. We'll have Reader back and we're even backing him up with a high potential guy in Shelvin. We even have Tupou coming back from COVID exemption and the depth at DT is so good now, he may not even make the team! Kareem should take a step forward this year, as he was just a body in 2020, and we have added two young pass rushers in Sample and Ossai who should really increase our ability to get after the QB. This year won't be like last when we had guys like Amani Bledsoe taking 312 snaps, Christian Covington taking 558 snaps, Xavier Williams taking 310 snaps and guys like Freedom Akinmoladun and Khalil McKenzie taking 24 and 101 snaps, respectively.

The only group that hasn't really improved is the LB core. At least from a personnel standpoint. At a certain point, you have to rely on the guys you have drafted to take a step forward. This will be a defining year for Germaine Pratt, who looked promising as a rookie but disappointing as a sophomore. Wilson and ADG will also be relied upon, as Bynes has not been re-signed. We'll see how this experiment goes. If they don't massively improve, LB becomes a big need in 2022.

Ultimately, we have nowhere to go but up as a defense and I think the team's hyper focus on defensive free agents will come due this season. I don't think we're going to be a top 10 defense or anything, but middle of the pack should be good enough to potentially reach the playoffs if Burrow comes back firing on all cylinders with his elite WR room and improved (albeit modestly) offensive line.

To me we downgraded at CB by losing Jackson and we downgraded at Edge by losing Lawson. Wayne's and Hendrickson are nice players but their clear downgrades to Jackson + Lawson.

For the rest of the Free agent signings; larry OG is an interesting signing if he can play up to his ability then we might have found a long term peace at 3T. Hilton looks like a stud and gives us yet another physical presence in the secondary. Chidobe needs a bounce back season at CB but he is a solid player.

Reader coming back should help but he is just a NT albeit one with some pass rush ability. I think him and Larry could be a nice duo.

Sample and Oassi are intriguing prospects. If those two show up we could have a decent pass rush.

The LB core is still in experienced but talented. Wilson looks like the real deal, Pratt fits what you want in modern thumber at LB, and ADG is an intriguing talent. They will make mistakes but also a ton of plays.

If the Defense can be average then we're looking at a 500 and above team. If they stink it up then we will suck once again. It will be interesting to see the leash Taylor has with Lou this year.

(05-25-2021, 09:01 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: My biggest concern is playing too much zone which can be easily exploited by just about any QB and TE/WR with chemistry.

There is very little straight zone played in the NFL anymore. There are a lot of matching concepts now where it's zone when the alignment and release off the line allow for it but converts to man post-snap. You are also seeing a lot of split coverage, for instance, you see a lot of mable coverage where you have man to the single side and cover 3 to the 3 receiver side. Essentially, the idea of spot drop zones called out of the huddle that most fans think of when they think of zone just really aren't much of a thing at all today. It doesn't mean they can't convert to a spot drop and the check was wrong making it look like they are just covering grass, but the defensive schemes today are REALLY complex in terms of matching and check reads so it's not nearly as easy as many fans think. 

To the other side of this, straight man has actually become far easier to exploit in the NFL today. The rise of pre-snap motion, stacking, pick plays and RPO's have made it really difficult to play straight man. Add into the freakish athletes on offense and you have a mismatch that always favors the offense because the defender starts with the disadvantage of not knowing where the play is going and most teams have pushed more towards match zone and combo coverage over straight man. That doesn't mean it doesn't occur, specifically in blitzing situations, but the idea of lining up man to man constantly isn't really a thing either. Most NFL teams are far more balanced in man and zone than people think.

The only starters who were here from the Marvin Lewis 2018 team are Bates and Hubbard. And Hubbard wasn't even a starter under Marvin Lewis.
Reader, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Pratt, Wilson, Waynes, Awuzie, Hilton are all new.

But that's what happens when you decide to drastically change the defensive scheme. Most players that worked in one scheme don't typically do as well in a different one.

(05-25-2021, 09:16 AM)J24 Wrote: To me we downgraded at CB by losing Jackson and we downgraded at Edge by losing Lawson. Wayne's and Hendrickson are nice players but their clear downgrades to Jackson + Lawson.

I think that's far from clear, even taking Lawson's inability to stay healthy out of the equation. We keep hearing Hendrickson was just a product of the line he played with. Well, Lawson was than also a product of playing on a line with Atkins and Dunlap, right?  WJ3 is a one trick pony, he is a beast in man coverage, but he struggles in zone and always has, and can't catch the ball to save his life. 

With the offensive weapons we have if are defense can just be serviceable we should have a chance in every game. It all starts on defense with stopping the run. Injuries played a role but we had games last year like the 1st Cleveland game where everyone was out there expect Wayne’s and the defense couldn’t stop a nose bleed. I still have my doubts about the D.

Can Lou coach ? - He has no proven track record
Pass rush ? - Besides Hendrickson who had 1 good year who else can get there ? , Hubbard more of a run guy and were relying heavily on rookies.
Linebacker ? The jury is still out. Pratt has been inconsistent , Davis - Gaither barley played , Wilson has talent need a bigger sample size.
CB - will the “zone scheme “work ? Wayne’s is now a CB1 something he didn’t do in Minnesota and Awuzie was bad for Dallas last year.

(05-25-2021, 10:22 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I think that's far from clear, even taking Lawson's inability to stay healthy out of the equation. We keep hearing Hendrickson was just a product of the line he played with. Well, Lawson was than also a product of playing on a line with Atkins and Dunlap, right?  WJ3 is a one trick pony, he is a beast in man coverage, but he struggles in zone and always has, and can't catch the ball to save his life. 

Lawson was top 10 in pressures last season and that was without playing next to Atkins or Dunlap.  Also Lawson has played in more games than Hendrickson as during their time in the NFL.

As far as Jackson being a one trick Pony; who cares? The #1 ability a CB has to have is to cover man to man. Maybe we should be blaming the Coordinator for not running enough man coverage instead of Jackson.

Are we STILL getting the nonsense that Hendrickson somehow did not really get 13.5 sacks last season? All defenders have some of their stat plays where another player contributed and in Hendrickson’s case for every person claiming he mostly benefitted from others there is another saying the opposite. And ultimately a sack is better than a pressure and Hendrickson got a lot of pressures last season too.

Also WJIII was good in Man but just sucked in zone - our new CBs are more balanced. I also think Ogunjobi is a major add to keep an eye on as when he was allowed to actually play his natural 3T position he delivered good pass rush in addition to run D. I look forward to seeing Ossai play as well.

The major question marks are of course Lou and also how long it takes for all the new pieces to meld together into a unit.

I think in order for this defense to be playoff calibur
It needs game changers at all 3 levels.
Bates and Bell possibly check a box....Hendrickson
And possibly maybe a young DE can emerge
Sooner than later.
But at LB I just dont see that player that can
Set a tone or instill some fire and tenacity ala
Thurman/ Burfict.

(05-25-2021, 01:56 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I think in order for this defense to be playoff calibur
It needs game changers at all 3 levels.
Bates and Bell possibly check a box....Hendrickson
And possibly maybe a young DE can emerge
Sooner than later.
But at LB I just dont see that player that can
Set a tone or instill some fire and tenacity ala
Thurman/ Burfict.

I expect a big jump from Logan Wilson this year. 

(05-25-2021, 02:01 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I expect a big jump from Logan Wilson this year. 

He always steps it up year 2 in my Madden sims. 

(05-25-2021, 09:45 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The only starters who were here from the Marvin Lewis 2018 team are Bates and Hubbard. And Hubbard wasn't even a starter under Marvin Lewis.
Reader, Ogunjobi, Hendrickson, Pratt, Wilson, Waynes, Awuzie, Hilton are all new.

But that's what happens when you decide to drastically change the defensive scheme. Most players that worked in one scheme don't typically do as well in a different one.

Which is why it's so encouraging to see the Bengals completely purge their defense to go all-in on the great DC Lou Anarumo's scheme. Certainly won't have to do this all over again when they hire an actual competent DC in a year or two. 

(05-25-2021, 08:43 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: After a mini overhaul last offseason, the 2020 Bengals defense suffered an abysmal season, riddled with injuries and some player discontent.

Move forward to now, the Bengals completed another mini overhaul to the defensive roster, and for at least this Bengal fan, the spirits and expectations are high.  (I mean, the defense has nowhere to go but up from last year, right?)

With players like Reader and Waynes set to return from injury, the addition of Trey Hendrickson and Larry Ogunjobi should bolster what was a weak and feeble DL last year.  The drafting of players like Sample, Shelvin and Ossai should provide good depth to work into the rotation.  The addition of an assassin like Mike Hilton at Slot Corner, paired with Bates and Bell at Safety, I feel like TEs and RBs are finally going to struggle catching the ball in the middle of the field and in the flats.  The Boundary CBs will be a bit of a question, until they get settled in. I feel like if he's back to full health, Waynes will make people forget about Jackson.  Phillips is continuing to develop into a quality corner, Chidobe and Apple should provide quality depth, as they are adept in the zone coverage that Anarumo likes to run.

Well I wouldnt expect a ton from the rookies year 1. as they acclimate to the NFL.   And the Others help offset our losses.  If all the rookies and last years picks all pan out to be average or above players we should be in decent shape as long as the D isnt left on the field a ton by the O 

(05-25-2021, 05:06 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well I wouldnt expect a ton from the rookies year 1. as they acclimate to the NFL.   And the Others help offset our losses.  If all the rookies and last years picks all pan out to be average or above players we should be in decent shape as long as the D isnt left on the field a ton by the O 

I agree with what you say about the rookies, and I like that there is no pressure for the rookies to have to come right in and perform.  I like when young players earn their way into more snaps by showing well in spot and rotational duties.  

As to the bolded part, you call the players no longer with us "loses".  I don't really see it that way.  Dunlap is an aging veteran who wasn't comfortable varying from what he had done in all of his previous time with the defense, and his effort level on the field appeared (to me at least) to reflect that sentiment.  Geno, while it was noble of him to attempt to play through severe injury, was just a mere shell of his former self.  His issues aren't going to completely go away by having shoulder surgery. (trust me, I have a rebuilt shoulder and I still try to train Strongman)  Many fans consider Carl Lawson a loss, but I saw him as only a speed rusher.  Hendrickson, from what I have seen, appears to be a more compete player, in the form of not only going around the edge, but standing up and backing the Tackle to the QB, to being a bigger body to stop the run.  Some are upset that they elected to let WJ III go in free agency, but I'm fine with that, as I never viewed him as panning out for where he was drafted.  Hilton, Waynes, and Awuzi are all adept at playing zone coverage, and should more than fill any void left by Jackson's departure.

While you phrase it as our additions "help offset our losses", I see it more as they got rid of expensive players who were underperforming and replaced them with younger players who appear to be a better scheme fit.

(05-25-2021, 09:12 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think we massively improved our secondary this off season.

Going from WJ3, Alexander, Phillips as our starting 3 with LeShaun Sims taking 606 snaps and both Tony Brown and Jalen Davis taking about a game or two's worth of snaps (95 snaps for Tony, 72 for Jalen) to Waynes, Awuzie, Hilton being our starting 3 with Phillips, Eli Apple and Ricardo Allen capable of coming in and taking those injury snaps is a huge deal. Maybe Awuzie is a step down from WJ3 (although you can argue he's a better scheme fit so may play better), but I think Hilton is objectively an upgrade over Alexander and Phillips could always step in for Waynes if he struggles, so our depth and talent at CB has taken a rather large step up this off season.

The defensive line has also really improved. Hendrickson may be a lateral move from Lawson or he may be a slight downgrade, but Ogunjobi will play better than Atkins did in 2020. We'll have Reader back and we're even backing him up with a high potential guy in Shelvin. We even have Tupou coming back from COVID exemption and the depth at DT is so good now, he may not even make the team! Kareem should take a step forward this year, as he was just a body in 2020, and we have added two young pass rushers in Sample and Ossai who should really increase our ability to get after the QB. This year won't be like last when we had guys like Amani Bledsoe taking 312 snaps, Christian Covington taking 558 snaps, Xavier Williams taking 310 snaps and guys like Freedom Akinmoladun and Khalil McKenzie taking 24 and 101 snaps, respectively.

The only group that hasn't really improved is the LB core. At least from a personnel standpoint. At a certain point, you have to rely on the guys you have drafted to take a step forward. This will be a defining year for Germaine Pratt, who looked promising as a rookie but disappointing as a sophomore. Wilson and ADG will also be relied upon, as Bynes has not been re-signed. We'll see how this experiment goes. If they don't massively improve, LB becomes a big need in 2022.

Ultimately, we have nowhere to go but up as a defense and I think the team's hyper focus on defensive free agents will come due this season. I don't think we're going to be a top 10 defense or anything, but middle of the pack should be good enough to potentially reach the playoffs if Burrow comes back firing on all cylinders with his elite WR room and improved (albeit modestly) offensive line.

Good post

It won't do anything but help us, in my eyes said Mike Hilton.

& I couldn't agree more.

Glad to see Burrow out there getting healthy.