And you can't say we won last year because of the Defense....

(11-06-2015, 11:51 AM)jj22 Wrote: And you can't say we won last year because of the Defense....

.....no, because we had some walking wounded there as well!

(11-06-2015, 11:43 AM)jj22 Wrote: The thing is qb's don't go from below average, ranked 22-32 (which is what we've been told he was regardless of his franchise accomplishments) to top 5. I asked people to name me one that has before an they can't.  So someone was wrong.... Fact is the national media never let Dalton struggle like they do other qb's who they gave elite/franchise status to. His game against the Steelers was the first time he's ever got a pass from them. Some of these characteristics they claim has made him top 5....maturity, 4th quarter comebacks, recovering from mistakes (INT/Fumble), he's done his whole career. They just act like it's something new, and fans let them by acting like it's something new as well.

I don't agree that Andy was "below average", I've always had him right around average in my rankings (12-18, closer to 12-13 most of the time though).

But, let's say that people were right when they said he was ranked 25 or whatever. You don't think there's ANY possible way that an athlete can be below average for a few years and progress to a level of greatness? I mean, it's not likely, but I'd say it's definitely somewhere in the realm of possibilities.

I'm not letting anyone in the media sway my thoughts, I actually think it's a huge insult to basically insinuate that only the homers have their own thought process and people that had issues with Andy's play weren't doing so because of their own opinions. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? My criticism of Andy came from watching some issues with his play. It's just dumb when people make it seem like anyone that critiqued him did so just because of what the media had to say, that's stupid, plain and simple.

(11-06-2015, 11:46 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....and he was also very young and cast in a very unique situation out of the gate, with no veteran mentor to learn from.  Not you, but I feel A LOT of people were overly critical of the kid.....and especially last year, where we managed to win with a MASH unit on offense.

I absolutely admit that I was overly critical of the guy in the past, but I do think a lot of my criticism was warranted and still stands to be true today. I may have nitpicked him occasionally, but he absolutely wasn't a top QB until this year. His mechanics improving last year along with the ability to not completely fold with injuries surrounding him was impressive. This year he took the next step and looks great. A lot of us have been overly critical, but I don't think many people were completely out of line that were critical except the ones that had the "Andy sucks!!!" narrative. He's never really sucked, well, except in the playoffs and some primetime games, but every QB sucks sometimes.

I've seen some teams win games with awfully mediocre QBs in the past, so I can't give Andy all of the credit in the world for 2014, but he did a lot of good things last year that I liked to see. I've always been super annoyed with the Andy homers that always have to overrate everything he does and tear down other QBs around the league and even other Bengals players to make Andy seem better than he was in the past. For that reason, most of my arguments would be with them so it seemed like I "didn't like" Andy, though funny enough, I've always had him ranked right around 12-13 which is significantly higher than a lot of people on the boards.

(11-06-2015, 11:51 AM)jj22 Wrote: And you can't say we won last year because of the Defense....

Why not?


They were 12th in PPG
T-13th in yards per play
T-6th in 3rd down %
3rd in passer rating against
3rd in passing TDs against
T-3rd in interceptions
T-13th in forced fumbles


They didn't get to the QB as much as we'd like to see and definitely struggled against the run in some games, but can you really say the defense was so horrible just because of the yards per game ranking? Yes, that's the standard to go by defensive ranking and I agree that it's the single best stat to use IF you're in a situation to only use 1, but if you dig deeper into the spectrum of stats (which we can easily do), they weren't that bad.

We went to the playoffs last year due to the defense not being that bad, Jeremy Hill playing lights out for half of a year, and Andy not letting injuries and poor performance break his will. That along with an easy schedule got us into the postseason. I definitely give Andy some of the credit, he did good things out there, but let's not close our eyes to the detailed defensive stats and forget that Hill in 2014 was great in at least a few games.

(11-06-2015, 12:04 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Why not?


They were 12th in PPG
T-13th in yards per play
T-6th in 3rd down %
3rd in passer rating against
3rd in passing TDs against
T-3rd in interceptions
T-13th in forced fumbles


They didn't get to the QB as much as we'd like to see and definitely struggled against the run in some games, but can you really say the defense was so horrible just because of the yards per game ranking? Yes, that's the standard to go by defensive ranking and I agree that it's the single best stat to use IF you're in a situation to only use 1, but if you dig deeper into the spectrum of stats (which we can easily do), they weren't that bad.

We went to the playoffs last year due to the defense not being that bad, Jeremy Hill playing lights out for half of a year, and Andy not letting injuries and poor performance break his will. That along with an easy schedule got us into the postseason. I definitely give Andy some of the credit, he did good things out there, but let's not close our eyes to the detailed defensive stats and forget that Hill in 2014 was great in at least a few games.

bolded is an understatment we were close to if not last in sacks... Our DBs ran the defense last year

(11-06-2015, 11:56 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I absolutely admit that I was overly critical of the guy in the past, but I do think a lot of my criticism was warranted and still stands to be true today. I may have nitpicked him occasionally, but he absolutely wasn't a top QB until this year. His mechanics improving last year along with the ability to not completely fold with injuries surrounding him was impressive. This year he took the next step and looks great. A lot of us have been overly critical, but I don't think many people were completely out of line that were critical except the ones that had the "Andy sucks!!!" narrative. He's never really sucked, well, except in the playoffs and some primetime games, but every QB sucks sometimes.

I've seen some teams win games with awfully mediocre QBs in the past, so I can't give Andy all of the credit in the world for 2014, but he did a lot of good things last year that I liked to see. I've always been super annoyed with the Andy homers that always have to overrate everything he does and tear down other QBs around the league and even other Bengals players to make Andy seem better than he was in the past. For that reason, most of my arguments would be with them so it seemed like I "didn't like" Andy, though funny enough, I've always had him ranked right around 12-13 which is significantly higher than a lot of people on the boards.

I know it.....that's why I said "not you" in my post.  Most of the criticism was warranted, some was a tiny bit over the top.  There were others though, that were absurd and couldn't see the forest for all of the trees.  I have seen steady development and a guy growing on the fly, others said he had reached his ceiling, he was 20th or worse, blah, blah.  I think you and I, along with a handful of others, were the only ones that could OBJECTIVELY discuss Andy on the mothership.  I always had him pegged for 12th to 15th, and I thought that was pretty damn good for 2nd rounder out of TCU who came in as a rookie with no OTAs, a talented but YOUNG surrounding cast, and a change of coordinators mid stream during his development.

(11-06-2015, 11:43 AM)jj22 Wrote: The thing is qb's don't go from below average, ranked 22-32 (which is what we've been told he was regardless of his franchise accomplishments) to top 5. I asked people to name me one that has before an they can't.  So someone was wrong.... Fact is the national media never let Dalton struggle like they do other qb's who they gave elite/franchise status to. His game against the Steelers was the first time he's ever got a pass from them. Some of these characteristics they claim has made him top 5....maturity, 4th quarter comebacks, recovering from mistakes (INT/Fumble), he's done his whole career. They just act like it's something new, and fans let them by acting like it's something new as well.

I thought it was awkward Deion Sanders sitting there trying to convince Dalton that he actually liked him.  Dalton's success is measured by playoff wins.  Guys like Bradford, Tannehill, and Stafford seem to be measured by some other metric.  

(11-06-2015, 11:25 AM)djs7685 Wrote: You really need to stop playing this card, I've seen dozens of posts from you that are almost exactly like this one.

You seem like you're being intentionally dense. These rankings are for this year. Andy is playing like a top 5 QB this year. Not a single person here has refuted that.

The worst thing that anybody has said about Andy's performance is that he needs to do this for more than just part of a season to be considered on the Brady and Rodgers level overall. Is that really so bad??

We all love the way Andy is playing, yet some people still have to draw the "us against them!" line to act superior just because they were delusional about Andy's play in the past. His high level of play in 2015 doesn't mean that anybody was "right" for saying he was a top QB prior to this year, because guess what? He wasn't.

Oh, I have a tendency to not let go of things like that - so although I may not be proud of it - it will be played again.  You can count on it. 

Dalton has taken further steps to developing this year, which some act surprised by and others have admitted by now that his ceiling was higher than they anticipated.  That's the heart of those early posts really - I believed Dalton's ceiling was high enough to be a top 5 quarterback.  You'd have to be intentionally dense to believe I was referring to historically, as opposed to his play now and in the future.  Combined w/ that offense limping through last year w/ a bandaid cast of characters - too many here relied on what the national media told them about Dalton vs. the conditions and natural development we were seeing out of him.  And you are very wrong with what you claim the worst thing people have said about Dalton's performance... In fact, there were quite a few people that were wanting us to draft another QB and start over; and at very least - evaluating w/ extra scrutiny this year to make the point we need another QB next year. 

And guess what, when I said what I did back in September, while alot of others here thought it was crazy talk - I was right.  It wasn't like I was just pulling that assessment out of nowhere.  And if it comes across as acting 'superior' to you - that is the most hypocritical thing ever - because that's exactly the way I felt about others attacking me by people who thought they knew better... and have so far been very wrong.

(11-06-2015, 12:26 PM)West Union KennyG Wrote: Oh, I have a tendency to not let go of things like that - so although I may not be proud of it - it will be played again.  You can count on it. 

Dalton has taken further steps to developing this year, which some act surprised by and others have admitted by now that his ceiling was higher than they anticipated.  That's the heart of those early posts really - I believed Dalton's ceiling was high enough to be a top 5 quarterback.  You'd have to be intentionally dense to believe I was referring to historically, as opposed to his play now and in the future.  Combined w/ that offense limping through last year w/ a bandaid cast of characters - too many here relied on what the national media told them about Dalton vs. the conditions and natural development we were seeing out of him.  And you are very wrong with what you claim the worst thing people have said about Dalton's performance... In fact, there were quite a few people that were wanting us to draft another QB and start over; and at very least - evaluating w/ extra scrutiny this year to make the point we need another QB next year. 

And guess what, when I said what I did back in September, while alot of others here thought it was crazy talk - I was right.  It wasn't like I was just pulling that assessment out of nowhere.  And if it comes across as acting 'superior' to you - that is the most hypocritical thing ever - because that's exactly the way I felt about others attacking me by people who thought they knew better... and have so far been very wrong.

You were right.  A lot of Dalton haters were wrong.  The Bengals are all the better for it.  8-0!

(11-06-2015, 12:21 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I thought it was awkward Deion Sanders sitting there trying to convince Dalton that he actually liked him.  Dalton's success is measured by playoff wins.  Guys like Bradford, Tannehill, and Stafford seem to be measured by some other metric.  

Coming from a HUGE FSU fan.....**** Deion.

(11-06-2015, 12:30 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You were right.  A lot of Dalton haters were wrong.  The Bengals are all the better for it.  8-0!

No, he was wrong.

He called Andy a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Andy wasn't a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Sorry, but you guys are the only ones "wrong" about this.

(11-06-2015, 12:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Coming from a HUGE FSU fan.....**** Deion.

For a guy who has accomplished as much as he has in his short career, Dalton sure does get crapped on a lot.  The narrative is changing now.  I recall during the broadcast Simms and Nance were trying to put his playoff losses in perspective.  They were basically saying what I've said all along:  the SD game was the only one of those games we had any business winning.  If you can look past 4 games for a moment, the dude's had a pretty damn good start to a career.  

(09-21-2015, 02:12 AM)West Union KennyG Wrote: Lol - yea, AD is an "average to below average NFL QB."  
Anyone who doesn't have him top-10 is a moron, and I'd argue he's top-5.

(09-21-2015, 02:29 AM)West Union KennyG Wrote: Absolutely not.  Quite honestly, when I look at his body of work, I really don't know how you can say that.

(11-06-2015, 12:26 PM)West Union KennyG Wrote: You'd have to be intentionally dense to believe I was referring to historically, as opposed to his play now and in the future. 

Uhhh, no. You'd have to be intentionally dense to forget things that YOU have said. The second quote you were responding to Utt's when he said this to you... "I doubt anybody outside of Cincinnati considers him top 10, and to suggest he's top 5 is absurd and I suspect trolling on your part."

You flat out said that when you look at his BODY OF WORK, that he's top 5/10. That's referring to "historically" there, buddy.

(11-06-2015, 12:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: I know it.....that's why I said "not you" in my post.  Most of the criticism was warranted, some was a tiny bit over the top.  There were others though, that were absurd and couldn't see the forest for all of the trees.  I have seen steady development and a guy growing on the fly, others said he had reached his ceiling, he was 20th or worse, blah, blah.  I think you and I, along with a handful of others, were the only ones that could OBJECTIVELY discuss Andy on the mothership.  I always had him pegged for 12th to 15th, and I thought that was pretty damn good for 2nd rounder out of TCU who came in as a rookie with no OTAs, a talented but YOUNG surrounding cast, and a change of coordinators mid stream during his development.

This.  Although I saw last season as a set-back in his development I attributed to 'The Mash Unit.' 
I saw his development and potential may be a little higher than some - and came here stating as such - to be ripped as "A Troll." 
I'm NOT a homer.  I used to get into it w/ others on the old boards and I was on the other side of the fence.  I lost the sig bet Dalton's first year and had to sport that terrible Richard Simmons rainbow sig.  That's some credentials that separate me from the over the top 'Homer' crowd.  When I have reasons to be optimistic - I am.  When I have reasons to be pessimistic - I am.  I don't blame anyone else here for not knowing that about me - I don't really expect anyone to know or care that much about what I post.  I'm just glad the pieces are coming together that the folks that were calling to sit Dalton and start AJ are silenced (much like the crowd asking for Kenny Anderson to be benched - early in the very same year he led that team to The Super Bowl).  

(11-06-2015, 12:39 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Uhhh, no. You'd have to be intentionally dense to forget things that YOU have said.

I haven't forgotten what I said, and I don't understand why you still don't understand what I said.  Even after the author of said comments has supplied much additional commentary explaining said comments.  Please explain how you think my comments then vs. my comments now have changed at all.  Because they haven't.  I was assessing current and potential; others were assessing on a step back in development of 2014 w/ the wounded warriors cast and what the media was telling them.  

(11-06-2015, 12:44 PM)West Union KennyG Wrote: I haven't forgotten what I said, and I don't understand why you still don't understand what I said.  Even after the author of said comments has supplied much additional commentary explaining said comments.  Please explain how you think my comments then vs. my comments now have changed at all.  Because they haven't.  I was assessing current and potential; others were assessing on a step back in development of 2014 w/ the wounded warriors cast and what the media was telling them.  

Listen, you said that when you look at his "body of work" (aka his past, durrrrrrr), anyone is a "moron" if they don't believe he's top 10, and you'd argue he's top 5. You said that in September of 2015, before he went on an 8 game streak like he is right now.

You can pretend you didn't say it, but I posted it up there. I'm not going to spend an hour trying to explain what YOU said. I'm sorry if you didn't mean what you said, but those words in the order that you wrote them mean exactly what I'm telling you right now.

(11-06-2015, 12:35 PM)djs7685 Wrote: No, he was wrong.

He called Andy a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Andy wasn't a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Sorry, but you guys are the only ones "wrong" about this.

Once again, you're wrong.  I never said he was a top 5 QB prior to this year.  What are you thinking?
I said he was a top 5 quarterback now.  And frankly, to be arguing w/ what you think I meant, when I've been quite clear about those posts and others following for a couple months now - well, I don't know really what to say about that.  But have fun with that.

(11-06-2015, 12:35 PM)djs7685 Wrote: No, he was wrong.

He called Andy a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Andy wasn't a top 5 QB prior to this year.

Sorry, but you guys are the only ones "wrong" about this.

If "Top 5" can change so suddenly what difference does labels such as those even make?  Is Luck still a "top 5" QB?  I've always considered Dalton a good QB that was more than capable of leading this team to the promise land.  He hasn't yet, but he sure looks the part.  A lot of haters wanted him gone already.

I feel vindicated in my support for the guy.  

(11-06-2015, 12:47 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Listen, you said that when you look at his "body of work" (aka his past, durrrrrrr), anyone is a "moron" if they don't believe he's top 10, and you'd argue he's top 5. You said that in September of 2015, before he went on an 8 game streak like he is right now.

You can pretend you didn't say it, but I posted it up there. I'm not going to spend an hour trying to explain what YOU said. I'm sorry if you didn't mean what you said, but those words in the order that you wrote them mean exactly what I'm telling you right now.

lol. 

And as I've said from early on - when I look at his "body of work" - including the past - that has shown a progressive development w/ a set back last year due to cast.  That I expected this year to continue developing and I saw him as a top 10, possibly top 5 QB.  It's a statement I stand by, and so far I've been right. 

If you're assessment of my words from September is you think based on solely what Andy Dalton has done so far / that if he were in a plane crash and died in September - that we should look at what he's accomplished and call him a top 5 QB - if that's what you thought I meant, I'd be first in line to call myself an idiot because that's never what I meant.  

(11-06-2015, 12:50 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If "Top 5" can change so suddenly what difference does labels such as those even make?  Is Luck still a "top 5" QB?  I've always considered Dalton a good QB that was more than capable of leading this team to the promise land.  He hasn't yet, but he sure looks the part.  A lot of haters wanted him gone already.

I feel vindicated in my support for the guy.  

The labels mean as much as you put into them. I love discussing player rankings, so I do so very often. I discuss current rankings for the season and also discuss rankings in general over the players' entire careers.

If you don't care about rankings, the only thing I can tell you is to not engage in discussion with people that are talking about rankings. Wouldn't it make the most sense for you to just ignore them?

(11-06-2015, 12:52 PM)West Union KennyG Wrote: lol. 

And as I've said from early on - when I look at his "body of work" - including the past - that has shown a progressive development w/ a set back last year due to cast.  That I expected this year to continue developing and I saw him as a top 10, possibly top 5 QB.  It's a statement I stand by, and so far I've been right. 

If you're assessment of my words from September is you think based on solely what Andy Dalton has done so far / that if he were in a plane crash and died in September - that we should look at what he's accomplished and call him a top 5 QB - if that's what you thought I meant, I'd be first in line to call myself an idiot because that's never what I meant.  

Alright that's fine, listen, it's the internet. I don't know you. I can only go by the words you put on here to come up with my conclusions. From what you wrote, if someone says "body of work", to me that means everything in the past. So from how you worded it, it obviously looks like you were saying that Andy is top 5/10 and that was before this season happened or right at the beginning of the football year.

If that's not what you meant, that's fine, I'm just pointing out that I can't read minds so maybe some better choices of words would be better in the future if you don't want people getting mixed up with your opinions. I understand what you're saying now, but it wasn't so clear beforehand.


All good. Andy is playing at a very high level and we can all be happy about that