(05-28-2021, 01:50 AM)Wyche Wrote: Sometimes old habits die hard, and people don't like change. I think THAT is what happened with some of our vets. I read that Green didn't like his role in the offense. Dunlap obviously didn't like his. They wanted out. One quit, one went through the motions to finish his tenure. It's pretty simple to me, they never bought in. So, as a staff, you want guys who do. It's not "they didn't wanna win", or "these new guys wanna win".... it's who's on board?

Now that it's apparently the case that everyone is on the same page....this team needs to be at least 9-7/7-9, or the entire staff needs to go.

Dead on.  And now guys like Bates and Hubbard are the clear leaders on the defense.  Burrow and Boyd on the offense.  It is going to be really fun watching this young core grow and further develop.  I absolutely love how the entire team was at OTAs.  The "recruiting dinner" at Ruby's.  I haven't seen a team this unified in some time.  

To your point, it means nothing if they don't turn that in to wins on the field, but I am very optimistic on this team THIS YEAR.  

(05-29-2021, 08:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on.  And now guys like Bates and Hubbard are the clear leaders on the defense.  Burrow and Boyd on the offense.  It is going to be really fun watching this young core grow and further develop.  I absolutely love how the entire team was at OTAs.  The "recruiting dinner" at Ruby's.  I haven't seen a team this unified in some time.  

To your point, it means nothing if they don't turn that in to wins on the field, but I am very optimistic on this team THIS YEAR.  

Agree with both your post. I really am not interested in won/lost results for ZT’s first 2 years. I believe it was understood that he would be unraveling the roster and rebuilding the entire team. This roster has undergone a complete make over even the players that were left were young to the organization. ZT has accomplished the mission of turning over the roster and now it’s time to turn that into wins. Remember it’s the losses that netted us Burrow in year 1 of his tenure.

(05-29-2021, 09:08 AM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Agree with both your post. I really am not interested in won/lost results for ZT’s first 2 years. I believe it was understood that he would be unraveling the roster and rebuilding the entire team. This roster has undergone a complete make over even the players that were left were young to the organization. ZT has accomplished the mission of turning over the roster and now it’s time to turn that into wins. Remember it’s the losses that netted us Burrow in year 1 of his tenure.

Absolutely, and the losses last year after he was injured (and all the defensive injuries, AJ Green's sudden decline, etc.) was what helped them to get Ja'Marr Chase.  

(05-28-2021, 12:31 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Funny you put two players in Dalton and Green who actually took leadership as rookies during a year when there was a contract impasse if i remember.. those two  are so anti to lack of leadership and will to win and put team first.. it was refreshing after the antics of Chad and Palmer at end of their career with Bengals .... sure we have had down years over the last few (Burrow first year included) but if it was not for Dalton and Green era of 5 straight playoffs who knows where this franchise would have ended up...

fredtoast Wrote:Lawson and Jackson played well enough in Lou's scheme to get contracts for $45 million and $42 million.  And there is a huge difference between claiming a player is "over the hill" and accusing him of not wanting to win.


It just really bothers me to see fans shit on former players and coaches just to try and prop up Taylor.

Actually Dalton and Green played no leadership roles during the labor dispute. Baby Palmer and Peko assumed responsibility and I praised each for doing so. I did blame CP9 for leaving his teammates hanging at such a time.

AJ Green- Love him as a player and person, but we'll just agree to disagree on the fact he may have been a little more concerned about his future rather that the team's winning percentage is 2019. Hell it would have been the smart thing to do.

Andy Dalton- Great guy, but when he got benched he wanted out; he had no desire to help the Bengals win by perhaps mentoring a young QB or coming off the bench if required. 

Carlos Dunlap- Was always immature and ran his mouth. When his play fell off and the 1st year coach tried something new, he broke protocol and blasted a picture of our depth chart. HE then complained about how HE was affected..

I don't hate on former players to pump up the team. I call it as I see it. I clearly remember how the team treated Evan Mathis and slammed them for it. I hate that the team didn't honor Geno's last year on contract. The dude signed a waiver to play with a torn labium last year  while many DTs opted out.

Hated the team parting ways with Jermaine Gresham, Cedric Benson, Housh, Carl Lawson, and many other former players.

So just because I gave 3 examples of players choosing self over team in the twilight of their careers doesn't mean I "shit" on all former player. 

Dalton was one of the worst leaders I’ve ever seen at the qb position.

(05-29-2021, 10:11 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Dalton was one of the worst leaders I’ve ever seen at the qb position.

Lol child please.

(05-29-2021, 09:48 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually Dalton and Green played no leadership roles during the labor dispute. Baby Palmer and Peko assumed responsibility and I praised each for doing so. I did blame CP9 for leaving his teammates hanging at such a time.

AJ Green- Love him as a player and person, but we'll just agree to disagree on the fact he may have been a little more concerned about his future rather that the team's winning percentage is 2019. Hell it would have been the smart thing to do.

Andy Dalton- Great guy, but when he got benched he wanted out; he had no desire to help the Bengals win by perhaps mentoring a young QB or coming off the bench if required. 

Carlos Dunlap- Was always immature and ran his mouth. When his play fell off and the 1st year coach tried something new, he broke protocol and blasted a picture of our depth chart. HE then complained about how HE was affected..

I don't hate on former players to pump up the team. I call it as I see it. I clearly remember how the team treated Evan Mathis and slammed them for it. I hate that the team didn't honor Geno's last year on contract. The dude signed a waiver to play with a torn labium last year  while many DTs opted out.

Hated the team parting ways with Jermaine Gresham, Cedric Benson, Housh, Carl Lawson, and many other former players.

So just because I gave 3 examples of players choosing self over team in the twilight of their careers doesn't mean I "shit" on all former player. 

Green's injury issue in 2019 is just something you made up in your head.  You have no evidence at all that he was pretending to be injured when he could have played.  Instead you just decided to turn against a player who always showed a desire to do anything to help the team.

Dalton and Dunlap were disrespected by the coaching staff.  Any coach who thought Ryan Finley gave us a better chance of winning than Dalton does not deserve any respect from any player.  And you try to claim it was "logical" to play Finley because the team was losing.  Taylor could have started a poodle at QB and you would praise him for "trying something different".  With Dunlap the coaches wanted to move on from him before the 2019 season but the front office would not do it.  

You can't expect players to respect coaches when they get no respect back from the coaches.  You claim that these former Bengals "did not want to win" but in fact the reason Dalton and Dunlap wanted out of here was because they did want to win.  What decent QB in his right mind would want to sit on the bench and watch a head coach throw away games by starting Ryan Finley?  How do you expect them to respect a coaching staff that has done nothing to deserve any respect?

(05-29-2021, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Green's injury issue in 2019 is just something you made up in your head.  You have no evidence at all that he was pretending to be injured when he could have played.  Instead you just decided to turn against a player who always showed a desire to do anything to help the team.

Dalton and Dunlap were disrespected by the coaching staff.  Any coach who thought Ryan Finley gave us a better chance of winning than Dalton does not deserve any respect from any player.  And you try to claim it was "logical" to play Finley because the team was losing.  Taylor could have started a poodle at QB and you would praise him for "trying something different".  With Dunlap the coaches wanted to move on from him before the 2019 season but the front office would not do it.  

You can't expect players to respect coaches when they get no respect back from the coaches.  You claim that these former Bengals "did not want to win" but in fact the reason Dalton and Dunlap wanted out of here was because they did want to win.  What decent QB in his right mind would want to sit on the bench and watch a head coach throw away games by starting Ryan Finley?  How do you expect them to respect a coaching staff that has done nothing to deserve any respect?

I see you keep saying I said they "did not want to win". I never said that (matter of fact I said it was a poor choice of words); but don't let my actual words stop you from your brilliant retort.  

You claim I made up AJ's injury issue in my head yet, you state the coaching staff disrespected players. You have 0 idea of the level of respect that was extended. 

When we benched Dalton it was on the bye week and I gave the coaches the benefit of the doubt that it was the opportune time to switch and give a rookie QB time to prepare for his first start. When I heard that it was on Dalton's birthday that he got benched I thought it was just unfortunate timing. But when we finally gave up on Finley and his worse than Dalton QB play and Dalton literally threw 1 touchdown and got the record I realized how clueless this coaching staff was.

Dalton was leading the league in pass attempts at the time of his benching and our rushing attack had to be about the worst in the league. Which was shocking because I believed we had the blueprint to run the ball with Mixon which I believe was evident when Mixon went from probably the worst RB in the first half of the season to the 2nd only behind Derrick Henry.

Also the last game before Dalton got benched was against the Rams ( which was also the 1st game Mixon actually was running well with the blocking ) But early in that game like the 1st series for the Rams Brandin Cooks left with a concussion. Leaving basically Cooper Kupp as the primary wr. Anybody who plays fantasy football or knows the stats that come with that knows that Goff targeted Kupp alot. As soon as Cooks leaves the game I said double Kupp and see if they can beat you. Instead we let Kupp have 220 yds and TD.

I know these are just a couple of examples but the list goes on with this coaching staff. So regardless if you think a player should just go with the flow when they get benched by these same inept coaches or not. I think when they do speak out it just points to they're competitive nature and the fact they do want to compete to win.

(05-29-2021, 10:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Green's injury issue in 2019 is just something you made up in your head.  You have no evidence at all that he was pretending to be injured when he could have played.  Instead you just decided to turn against a player who always showed a desire to do anything to help the team.

Dalton and Dunlap were disrespected by the coaching staff.  Any coach who thought Ryan Finley gave us a better chance of winning than Dalton does not deserve any respect from any player.  And you try to claim it was "logical" to play Finley because the team was losing.  Taylor could have started a poodle at QB and you would praise him for "trying something different".  With Dunlap the coaches wanted to move on from him before the 2019 season but the front office would not do it.  

You can't expect players to respect coaches when they get no respect back from the coaches.  You claim that these former Bengals "did not want to win" but in fact the reason Dalton and Dunlap wanted out of here was because they did want to win.  What decent QB in his right mind would want to sit on the bench and watch a head coach throw away games by starting Ryan Finley?  How do you expect them to respect a coaching staff that has done nothing to deserve any respect?

The bolded portion tells a lot. The coaches were not asking Dalton to mentor the future of the franchise, in fact Finley has proven not close to be a starting NFL QB, let alone a franchise QB like Burrow. I think this is where your argument starts to fall apart BFine, Dalton did want to win, did ZT? It appears he did not based on starting a QB lacking in NFL talent which all knew by the time ZT made the switch.

(05-29-2021, 10:54 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You claim I made up AJ's injury issue in my head yet, you state the coaching staff disrespected players. You have 0 idea of the level of respect that was extended. 

Benching Dalton for Ryan Finley was disrespect.

Dropping Dunlap to third string behind guys he was outproducing was disrespect.

(05-29-2021, 10:11 AM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Dalton was one of the worst leaders I’ve ever seen at the qb position.

I don’t know about his leadership skills, but he was definitely one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. I cringed every single time he was mic’d up

(05-29-2021, 11:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Benching Dalton for Ryan Finley was disrespect.

Dropping Dunlap to third string behind guys he was outproducing was disrespect.

Players are paid to perform. Fact is this team was not performing. Players were being paid good money and the results were bad. It was time to blow up the roster and move on. That’s business. You wanting to make this about respect is laughable. Players employ agents and are represented my a union. If they feel disrespected they can move on to the next opportunity. Owners have a means as well. Fans foot the Bill for both parties. If your looking for someone disrespected I suggest you start their.

(05-29-2021, 11:44 AM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: Players are paid to perform. Fact is this team was not performing. Players were being paid good money and the results were bad. It was time to blow up the roster and move on.

Then why did they bench Finley and go back to Dalton?

Like I said before.  Taylor could have started punting on first down and some of you would still have defended him because "since we weren't winning it was logical to try something different".

(05-29-2021, 11:37 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I don’t know about his leadership skills, but he was definitely one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. I cringed every single time he was mic’d up

It cracks me up to hear some fans complain about some player or coach being "soft" just because he does not act like a raging asshole or a child who can not control his emotions.

Football games are won with hard work and discipline not squealing.  Ask Tony Dungy, or Tom Landry, or Roger Staubach.

(05-29-2021, 11:37 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I don’t know about his leadership skills, but he was definitely one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. I cringed every single time he was mic’d up

I’m sorry, but how was Andy Dalton soft? Dude took a lot of hits in his career and always got back up. He injured himself tackling a lineman wayyy bigger than him. Soft QBs don’t do that. Soft QBs get out of the way.

(05-29-2021, 11:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Benching Dalton for Ryan Finley was disrespect.

Dropping Dunlap to third string behind guys he was outproducing was disrespect.

The team was winless and Andy was the worst starting QB in the NFL

The team was winless and our high paid edge rusher had 1 sack all year as the starter

Trying a different approach was not disrespectful. To not try something different would be disrespectful to the enitre team.

At this point you're just talking to talk and making up stuff I said. Take it elsewhere.. 

(05-29-2021, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why did they bench Finley and go back to Dalton?

Like I said before.  Taylor could have started punting on first down and some of you would still have defended him because "since we weren't winning it was logical to try something different".

Well my guess would be there was two reasons for this:

1) They wanted to actually evaluate Finley in game situations against other teams and see what they had in him.

and

2) They were hopeful that the switch to a new guy who should have been hungry to prove he could be their QB would provide a spark.


Why they went back was simple, Finley wasn't what they thought he could be and looked horrible. The team wanted to avoid a winless season and realized Dalton was the best option to do that.


There is plenty to pick apart when it comes to the decisions of Taylor and company but I really didn't see the issue with the switch. 

The issue I had was not making the switch sooner and allowing time for a Dalton trade to happen so as to get something for him versus getting nothing as they did.

(05-29-2021, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why did they bench Finley and go back to Dalton?

Like I said before.  Taylor could have started punting on first down and some of you would still have defended him because "since we weren't winning it was logical to try something different".

They had seen enough of Finley.

(05-29-2021, 11:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why did they bench Finley and go back to Dalton?

Like I said before.  Taylor could have started punting on first down and some of you would still have defended him because "since we weren't winning it was logical to try something different".

Obviously they wanted to disrespect Finley