Power to her I suppose. The one thing I don't actually get is her political affiliation. Sorry to inject politics into this but, Caitlyn says that she is a Republican? That seems like a strange choice give that I wouldn't think this sort of, uh, change would go over well with them...but maybe I'm not being fair to the GOP. I dunno. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen.

(06-02-2015, 02:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: This has nothing to do with some macho thing about "oh, what a *****," or anything like that, but, my question is, what message does this send to kids?

If kids can't afford surgery, all the hormone treatments, and whatever else, are we teaching them that they're stuck in a lie forever and to be miserable?

It's not like just trying to lose weight to be healthier or things like that because are we teaching kids that some people are mistakes?

Everyone on Facebook and the media is praising her and I just can't get those thoughts out of my head.

I'm afraid you have this one all wrong. The message that this sends to kids in that you should be whoever you feel you are. It's not teaching that some people are mistakes, but that every person is perfect in who they are, as long as they are comfortable with who they are. 

The fact that Jenner had money for it makes no difference. It's all plastic surgery. The hormone treatment is actually probably the most financially accessible part of the whole deal. 

(06-02-2015, 05:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A lot of people always ask "why is it such a big deal that they're gay/trans??"

Because there are a ton of people who are who fear that they will be met with hate or disgust by their friends/family/society if they be themselves. People like Jenner show them that anyone can be themselves and that they shouldn't worry.

Exactly. Later this month I will be attending a Pride Parade nearby. Different communities have them different times of the year. It is a really fun event. If you are closed minded or uptight about sexuality or other people's choices it is a great way to stretch your boundaries a little bit and see that there are ALL KINDS of people out there and they are ALL KINDS of different and ALL KINDS of fun. I am straight, have gone to the parade for the past few years, initially alone and subsequently with gay friends and I have a blast no matter what. One year it rained like a monsoon and I swear not a single person left. It was, as a friend said, "A parade you could not rain on!"  I literally would not want to miss it for anything.

And if you are open minded and tolerant of others it is still a great way to stretch your boundaries. Best thing about being at a Pride event? You know that feeling of electricity in the air at a stadium when your team is rallying and the whole crowd is into it? There is an energy almost like that everywhere you go at Pride, and everyone, I mean everyone, is happy and smiling (some are sporting two or three smiles if you know what I mean) and there is this great feeling that everyone is accepted and welcome. It really is magical. And I am a straight guy. I can only imagine how special is must be for the people are gay, bi, or trans and who have built our parade into what it is (huge) and those who come from miles away to be a part of that inclusiveness and be accepted no matter what they are wearing or who they have their arms (and sometimes legs) around.

(06-02-2015, 05:16 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Power to her I suppose. The one thing I don't actually get is her political affiliation. Sorry to inject politics into this but, Caitlyn says that she is a Republican? That seems like a strange choice give that I wouldn't think this sort of, uh, change would go over well with them...but maybe I'm not being fair to the GOP. I dunno. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen.

Money trumps all. She is a Republican because they sell out even more to the wealthy than the Dems do. But you are correct, she is generally more likely to find acceptance in Dem circles as they tend to be more gay friendly. Most Rep gays are still deep in the closet. Yes those are broad generalizations, but your question was based in those broad trends and you are not wrong.

(06-02-2015, 03:24 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But it seems like, by going for shock value, they're promoting the idea of changing who you are.

It seriously bugs me because did we give up on "just be yourself, you're good enough no matter what?"

Actually, they are promoting the idea of "being who you are".

(06-02-2015, 05:16 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I'm afraid you have this one all wrong. The message that this sends to kids in that you should be whoever you feel you are. It's not teaching that some people are mistakes, but that every person is perfect in who they are, as long as they are comfortable with who they are. 

The fact that Jenner had money for it makes no difference. It's all plastic surgery. The hormone treatment is actually probably the most financially accessible part of the whole deal. 

So if a kid doesn't have the money for surgery or has some condition that they can't have it, they should just kill themselves instead of being happy the way they are?

What about overweight kids?  I'm sure a lot of them don't feel the way that they're seen on the outside but are depressed because of how they are judged or ridiculed, so should they just kill themselves if dieting doesn't work or there's no surgery to fix the problem that they have?

Biting my tongue... but wtf?!

(06-02-2015, 05:39 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Biting my tongue... but wtf?!

Explain how that's not what you're saying.

If you don't have the money for surgery and everything else to change your body, or if you have some condition that doesn't allow it, you should just be depressed or kill yourself?

(06-02-2015, 05:16 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Power to her I suppose. The one thing I don't actually get is her political affiliation. Sorry to inject politics into this but, Caitlyn says that she is a Republican? That seems like a strange choice give that I wouldn't think this sort of, uh, change would go over well with them...but maybe I'm not being fair to the GOP. I dunno. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, I'll listen.

He's rich isn't he?  It makes perfect sense to me that he would consider himself a Republican.  I'm sorry for calling Caitlyn "him"/"he".

(06-02-2015, 05:33 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So if a kid doesn't have the money for surgery or has some condition that they can't have it, they should just kill themselves instead of being happy the way they are?

You know you don't need to have surgery, right? It's very possible to live your life as a man/woman without having an operation. I think the definition of 'transgender' might help out here:

trans·gen·der

transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
adjective: transgender; adjective: transgendered

1. denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.
   "a transgender activist and author"
   
   

Note there is nothing about 'surgery', just self identification.

There's a chance you have interacted with with a transgender or gender non-conforming person and didn't even realize it. Quote from the FiveThrityEight article "Most Americans Say They Don’t Know A Transgender Person — But Many Of Them Probably Do :

Quote:Jenner has chosen to publicly share her gender identity, but many transgender Americans do not. In a 2011 survey of 6,456 transgender or gender non-conforming adults in the U.S., 12 percent said they had never told anyone about their gender identity.

(06-02-2015, 05:33 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:  
So if a kid doesn't have the money for surgery or has some condition that they can't have it, they should just kill themselves instead of being happy the way they are?

What about overweight kids?  I'm sure a lot of them don't feel the way that they're seen on the outside but are depressed because of how they are judged or ridiculed, so should they just kill themselves if dieting doesn't work or there's no surgery to fix the problem that they have?

:crazy:

I've been wanting to use this emoticon since I first saw it, congrats I finally found a post that deserves it. 

Dude... Saying that you should be happy with who you feel you are in no way suggests people should kill themselves if they can't pay for plastic surgery.

(06-02-2015, 04:34 PM)Beaker Wrote:

(06-02-2015, 06:49 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: :crazy:

I've been wanting to use this emoticon since I first saw it, congrats I finally found a post that deserves it. 

But with no explanation of how that's wrong.

Congrats.

(06-02-2015, 07:19 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Dude... Saying that you should be happy with who you feel you are in no way suggests people should kill themselves if they can't pay for plastic surgery.

But you're suggesting that they shouldn't be happy if they can't pay for the plastic surgery?

Whatever happened to being happy with who you are?

If a kid raises his hand in your class and says "I feel like I'm a female," are you going to say "ok, you're a female, just wait until you can get enough money for the surgery."  

Then, when another kid raises his hand and says "so he's a male, but he feels like a female, so is he a mistake," you're going to say "yes, he's a mistake, there's something wrong with him"?

If a kid feels like a female, should he be allowed in the girls' showers after gym class because he feels happier as a female with the females?  

(06-02-2015, 08:03 PM)TBFritz21 Wrote: But with no explanation of how that's wrong.

Congrats.

But you're suggesting that they shouldn't be happy if they can't pay for the plastic surgery?

Whatever happened to being happy with who you are?

If a kid raises his hand in your class and says "I feel like I'm a female," are you going to say "ok, you're a female, just wait until you can get enough money for the surgery."  

Then, when another kid raises his hand and says "so he's a male, but he feels like a female, so is he a mistake," you're going to say "yes, he's a mistake, there's something wrong with him"?

If a kid feels like a female, should he be allowed in the girls' showers after gym class because he feels happier as a female with the females?  

Someone already said this but most trans people do not get surgery. 

Also, the transition is a long process that doesn't immediately begin with hormone therapy. 

And there's nothing wrong with him. Why the hell would I call that child a mistake? What is wrong with you?

And I still haven't seen anyone say people should commit suicide...

(06-02-2015, 08:03 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But with no explanation of how that's wrong.

Congrats.

With no explanation of how what is wrong?

Hearing a lot of negativity in the media and in person. It's annoying.

(06-02-2015, 09:51 PM)treee Wrote: Hearing a lot of negativity in the media and in person. It's annoying.

Makes me feel fortunate to live where I do and travel in the circles I do. A few jokes but nothing mean or stupid, and most of my friends and casual acquaintances are saying either "good for her" or "I don't understand it, but good for her."

I joked she should compete in the senior olympics  decathlon as a woman and be the only person to ever win it twice, once as a man and once as a woman. Accept, I wasn't joking. I actually think that would be cool as hell.

(06-02-2015, 09:59 PM)xxlt Wrote: Makes me feel fortunate to live where I do and travel in the circles I do. A few jokes but nothing mean or stupid, and most of my friends and casual acquaintances are saying either "good for her" or "I don't understand it, but good for her."

I joked she should compete in the senior olympics  decathlon as a woman and be the only person to ever win it twice, once as a man and once as a woman. Accept, I wasn't joking. I actually think that would be cool as hell.

Wouldn't she disqualified for cheating because of hormone therapy?