(06-13-2021, 03:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Uh, I think most of us want to see all our players improve...

Let the best players start is my opinion.

You wanted Thuney, Orlando Brown in FA and we got Riley Reiff who had less penalties and allowed less sacks than both.

If Jordan does a magical turn around and stays low with technique I am not hating on the guy.

BTW, I doubt he starts at all this season. He has Carman, Spain, XSF in front of him and they could be real good.

Carman is very underrated to you and a lot of people I still see. I studied up on this guy thoroughly before the Draft.

Jackson Carman could be the best OL in the entire Draft, better than Sewell. No one mauls like Carman.

A lot to unpack here.

1. Yeah, we all want to see players get better. How likely is it though? I had a lot of similar arguments about Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine, etc. Usually if a guy stinks to high heaven for 2 years, he doesn't suddenly flip a switch and become a good player in year 3-4. That's all I'm saying.

2. We got Reiff on a 1 year deal. For all we know, we'll be needing a RT again next March.

3. I'm not "hating" anyone, just trying to be realistic.

4. Carman is a decent prospect, but dial it back a notch.

(06-13-2021, 06:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So then what happens if the proverbial "light comes on"?  As in he takes well to the coaching, improves his technique, and wins the job, outright?

I mean, other than drafting Jackson Carman, the team did nothing to upgrade from last season's roster personnel at Guard.

See #1 of my response to Nate. Yes, Jordan may end up starting, and I think that speaks more to our current depth than anything positive about MJ. Although it's possible he won't stink "quite" as badly under Pollack.

(06-13-2021, 06:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where did anyone say anything about him starting?

So we're talking about Jordan's hidden potential coming out...on the bench?

(06-14-2021, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So we're talking about Jordan's hidden potential coming out...on the bench?

Training camp. Preseason. Practice. All of which he could use to show the coaches he’s at least worthy of being a backup for right now. I think I speak for most that I don’t want to see him starting in real games as early as this year though. Let him develop in practice, and re-evaluate where he is down the road when it’s time to make a decision about Spain/XSF, and the other OG spot (hopefully Carman has RG locked down). If MJ is still not there move on and draft someone else.

(06-14-2021, 07:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Training camp. Preseason. Practice. All of which he could use to show the coaches he’s at least worthy of being a backup for right now. I think I speak for most that I don’t want to see him starting in real games as early as this year though. Let him develop in practice, and re-evaluate where he is down the road when it’s time to make a decision about Spain/XSF, and the other OG spot (hopefully Carman has RG locked down). If MJ is still not there move on and draft someone else.

So maybe in year 4 or 5 he can be a decent starter? Maybe? If he shows out somehow? I think I can speak for most by saying that I don't think I'll be any more thrilled about Jordan starting in 2022 than I'd be in 2021. But hey, to each their own.

(06-14-2021, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A lot to unpack here.

1. Yeah, we all want to see players get better. How likely is it though? I had a lot of similar arguments about Ogbuehi, Fisher, Bodine, etc. Usually if a guy stinks to high heaven for 2 years, he doesn't suddenly flip a switch and become a good player in year 3-4. That's all I'm saying.

2. We got Reiff on a 1 year deal. For all we know, we'll be needing a RT again next March.

3. I'm not "hating" anyone, just trying to be realistic.

4. Carman is a decent prospect, but dial it back a notch.

Understandable lol

If Reiff plays well, again I think we extend him and with Adeniji and D'Ante Smith I think we have some good young guys to 
learn from him. Dude is a proven good OT in the NFL and has already been given props for his leadership running the OL room
from Uzomah in his interview. Expecting much better play from the RT position this season and for years to come.

Carman is better than a lot of people are saying, just saying. I will dial it back a notch for you guys even though I love what I 
see and I love the move to Guard and thought so before we ever drafted the man.

(06-14-2021, 07:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Training camp. Preseason. Practice. All of which he could use to show the coaches he’s at least worthy of being a backup for right now. I think I speak for most that I don’t want to see him starting in real games as early as this year though. Let him develop in practice, and re-evaluate where he is down the road when it’s time to make a decision about Spain/XSF, and the other OG spot (hopefully Carman has RG locked down). If MJ is still not there move on and draft someone else.

Yeah.

(06-14-2021, 08:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So maybe in year 4 or 5 he can be a decent starter? Maybe? If he shows out somehow? I think I can speak for most by saying that I don't think I'll be any more thrilled about Jordan starting in 2022 than I'd be in 2021. But hey, to each their own.

He is only 23 years old, give the guy a chance is all.

(06-14-2021, 08:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So maybe in year 4 or 5 he can be a decent starter? Maybe? If he shows out somehow? I think I can speak for most by saying that I don't think I'll be any more thrilled about Jordan starting in 2022 than I'd be in 2021. But hey, to each their own.

Guy was clearly not ready, and had Jim Turner as his only NFL coach. Who knows what the future will be for him, but 23 is a bit early to be writing him off.

I'm not overly comfortable with the continued effort to sell Jordan as a viable candidate for playing time on the o-lne. There is no way he should start over Spain or XSF. If Carman was anywhere near worth a second round selection, he should hold MJ off with ease. It sucks that he was all sad about Burrow's injury. It sucks that he feels responsible (he sort of is). That doesn't make him worthy of a starting job, or any real playing time. He's a demonstrably awful guard. I don't want ownership to continue trying to sell me demonstrably awful players when there are better options available. Dude should be red-shirted (for lack of a better term) for a year to build some strength.

If MJ sees a large amount of playing time this season, we probably aren't in an ideal place roster-wise with the line.

(06-14-2021, 08:49 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm not overly comfortable with the continued effort to sell Jordan as a viable candidate for playing time on the o-lne. There is no way he should start over Spain or XSF. If Carman was anywhere near worth a second round selection, he should hold MJ off with ease. It sucks that he was all sad about Burrow's injury. It sucks that he feels responsible (he sort of is). That doesn't make him worthy of a starting job, or any real playing time. He's a demonstrably awful guard. I don't want ownership to continue trying to sell me demonstrably awful players when there are better options available. Dude should be red-shirted (for lack of a better term) for a year to build some strength.

If MJ sees a large amount of playing time this season, we probably aren't in an ideal place roster-wise with the line.

And that seems to be exactly what most are suggesting.

(06-14-2021, 08:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And that seems to be exactly what most are suggesting.

No doubt.

I think this guy would be better off starting fresh with a new team. I don't see why we're keeping him around, tbh. Last year was horrific, he's plummeted on the depth chart, and Pollack's busy enough as is. As for working out with Big Willie, I guess that's good, but Willie is not one of our coaches. He was also brought in to work with Ced, and look how well that turned out. If anything it's a publicity stunt. Reminds me of Hakeem Olajuwon training all the lanky, raw, big-man projects from Africa back in the day. Always seemed like a good plan until the season began and you realized they were still the same players (i.e. not Hakeem).

Give the kid a chance to begin anew somewhere else. Playing with the constant reminder of Burrow's ravaged knee cannot possibly be good for his future.

(06-14-2021, 04:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: How so Rfaulk? Jackson Carman was arguably the best mauling, run blocking O-lineman in the Draft and I saw this way 
before we drafted him. Synric and me both wanted him in the 2nd round and most that evaluated him only thought he 
dropped to the 2nd cause of the injury that he is now over with.

Not saying Carman is just going to be great right off the bat but neither is Sewell as a rookie.

We will see who is the best OL out of this class, not betting against Carman who is just made to play Guard.

His only weakness was speed rushers which he won't have to worry about on the inside.

By what metric was he "arguably the best mauling, run blocking O-lineman in the draft"? There were 71 guys graded better than him, overall, and a quick count shows at least 10 of them were graded higher--names that i instantly recognized as being drafted and that's not including Sewell and Slater who weren't graded last year.

I'm not sure why you keep name-dropping Synric but, let's be honest, you named about 15 guys you wanted in the 2nd round leading up to the draft. 

The injury was not the only reason evaluators thought he "dropped" to the 2nd round. He was widely viewed as a guy that had "starting potential" and could be an "adequate" guard in the NFL. Also, back injuries are never "over with" once surgery is done. 

Sewell has a much, much better chance of being great off the bat than Carman does.

Speed rushers were not his "only weakness". There's a reason why it was a weakness and it's not going to just disappear because he moves inside. His change of direction and hand placement isn't going to magically get better because he has a little less space to work in. His player and situational awareness isn't going to just magically improve because he moves inside. Sewell is head and shoulders above Carman in awareness, agility and overall athletic ability and he shows stronger on tape. It's not really even close.

Anything is possible. Pollack could be a huge boost for him but you've taken the guy and, without playing a single down in the NFL, skyrocketed him from being a potential starter to being a guy sniffing All Pro. I get the excitement but you're going off the rails in your predictions without anything more than a passage of time. 

(06-14-2021, 06:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A lot to unpack here

Please don’t say this ever again

(06-14-2021, 08:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Understandable lol

If Reiff plays well, again I think we extend him and with Adeniji and D'Ante Smith I think we have some good young guys to 
learn from him. Dude is a proven good OT in the NFL and has already been given props for his leadership running the OL room
from Uzomah in his interview. Expecting much better play from the RT position this season and for years to come.

Carman is better than a lot of people are saying, just saying. I will dial it back a notch for you guys even though I love what I 
see and I love the move to Guard and thought so before we ever drafted the man.

Question is though Nate, does the Bengals learn from their mistakes of the past when it comes to a player being "past the age" of being good. 

We let Whit leave when he was 34 years old and hell Whits still killing it.  Granted, had the Bengals signed Whit he'd probably be retired by now with some medical issues cause how often do things work out in that case for the Bengals.  

I'm hoping that Reiff kills it at RT this year because that only helps the team.  However, I'm not going to hold my breath and hope for this front office to spent 10+M on a 34 yo offensive lineman for multiple season.   It's a proven fact they don't believe in spending money on Guards and they don't believe players at that age can continue being productive. 

(06-15-2021, 10:55 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Question is though Nate, does the Bengals learn from their mistakes of the past when it comes to a player being "past the age" of being good. 

We let Whit leave when he was 34 years old and hell Whits still killing it.  Granted, had the Bengals signed Whit he'd probably be retired by now with some medical issues cause how often do things work out in that case for the Bengals.  

I'm hoping that Reiff kills it at RT this year because that only helps the team.  However, I'm not going to hold my breath and hope for this front office to spent 10+M on a 34 yo offensive lineman for multiple season.   It's a proven fact they don't believe in spending money on Guards and they don't believe players at that age can continue being productive. 

Whit was 36 when he left.

(06-14-2021, 08:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah.


He is only 23 years old, give the guy a chance is all.

(06-14-2021, 08:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Guy was clearly not ready, and had Jim Turner as his only NFL coach. Who knows what the future will be for him, but 23 is a bit early to be writing him off.

Fair enough, guys. I'm not writing him off completely. Just saying that until we see some evidence on the field, my hopes are slim for him...and I certainly wouldn't be happy going into 2022 with him even competing at guard, unless I saw him play well in games this year.

I'm not trusting any 2022 Hobson fluff pieces telling me how great Jordan has become

(06-15-2021, 11:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Whit was 36 when he left.

Nicomo, thank you for the correction.

However, do you honestly think the Brown family would've given Whit a multi year contract extension for 10+M at the age of 34?  

I don't think that'd ever happen, which is why I don't believe it'd ever happen for Reiff either.  

(06-15-2021, 02:36 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: By what metric was he "arguably the best mauling, run blocking O-lineman in the draft"? There were 71 guys graded better than him, overall, and a quick count shows at least 10 of them were graded higher--names that i instantly recognized as being drafted and that's not including Sewell and Slater who weren't graded last year.

I'm not sure why you keep name-dropping Synric but, let's be honest, you named about 15 guys you wanted in the 2nd round leading up to the draft. 

The injury was not the only reason evaluators thought he "dropped" to the 2nd round. He was widely viewed as a guy that had "starting potential" and could be an "adequate" guard in the NFL. Also, back injuries are never "over with" once surgery is done. 

Sewell has a much, much better chance of being great off the bat than Carman does.

Speed rushers were not his "only weakness". There's a reason why it was a weakness and it's not going to just disappear because he moves inside. His change of direction and hand placement isn't going to magically get better because he has a little less space to work in. His player and situational awareness isn't going to just magically improve because he moves inside. Sewell is head and shoulders above Carman in awareness, agility and overall athletic ability and he shows stronger on tape. It's not really even close.

Anything is possible. Pollack could be a huge boost for him but you've taken the guy and, without playing a single down in the NFL, skyrocketed him from being a potential starter to being a guy sniffing All Pro. I get the excitement but you're going off the rails in your predictions without anything more than a passage of time. 

Not fair to say 71 guys were graded better than Carman, how many OL were graded better than him is the question?

I had him graded as a 2nd rounder before the Draft and that is right where we got him and even traded back and added picks.

Carman is not going to face near as many speed rushers at Guard, fact. This was widely known as his main weakness before the 
Draft and most who studied up on him knew this and wanted him to move to Guard if we drafted him. Sewell is the bigger talent
no question as he was the most talented OL in the entire Draft, but we all know how the draft goes. We don't know who will be 
the best OL out of this Draft. I think Carman will thrive at RG is all.

We will see who is right. I predict both Carman and Sewell will struggle a bit early as all rookies pretty much do.

But believe Carman has a chance to be a better rookie cause of the move inside. Just my opinion. If we were to throw Carman 
out to OT like most likely will happen to Sewell he would struggle more so IMO.

(06-15-2021, 10:55 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Question is though Nate, does the Bengals learn from their mistakes of the past when it comes to a player being "past the age" of being good. 

We let Whit leave when he was 34 years old and hell Whits still killing it.  Granted, had the Bengals signed Whit he'd probably be retired by now with some medical issues cause how often do things work out in that case for the Bengals.  

I'm hoping that Reiff kills it at RT this year because that only helps the team.  However, I'm not going to hold my breath and hope for this front office to spent 10+M on a 34 yo offensive lineman for multiple season.   It's a proven fact they don't believe in spending money on Guards and they don't believe players at that age can continue being productive. 

As Nicomo said, Whit was 36 when we let him go and yes we will have to learn from that mistake.

It was pretty blatant when Whit went to the Rams and was All Pro. We will see if they learned from that...

I think they will if Reiff plays well.

(06-15-2021, 12:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair enough, guys. I'm not writing him off completely. Just saying that until we see some evidence on the field, my hopes are slim for him...and I certainly wouldn't be happy going into 2022 with him even competing at guard, unless I saw him play well in games this year.

I'm not trusting any 2022 Hobson fluff pieces telling me how great Jordan has become

Yeah, I am not trusting the fluff either. But if Jordan plays well I will give him props, so far he has been pretty terrible and 
cannot get low. Pollack and Willie working with him should help though over Turner.

(06-16-2021, 03:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not fair to say 71 guys were graded better than Carman, how many OL were graded better than him is the question?

I had him graded as a 2nd rounder before the Draft and that is right where we got him and even traded back and added picks.

Carman is not going to face near as many speed rushers at Guard, fact. This was widely known as his main weakness before the 
Draft and most who studied up on him knew this and wanted him to move to Guard if we drafted him. Sewell is the bigger talent
no question as he was the most talented OL in the entire Draft, but we all know how the draft goes. We don't know who will be 
the best OL out of this Draft. I think Carman will thrive at RG is all.

We will see who is right. I predict both Carman and Sewell will struggle a bit early as all rookies pretty much do.

But believe Carman has a chance to be a better rookie cause of the move inside. Just my opinion. If we were to throw Carman 
out to OT like most likely will happen to Sewell he would struggle more so IMO.

Sorry. When i said "71 guys", that only included Center, Guard and Tackle. Not all were eligible to be drafted though, that's where the second number comes in. Guys that i recognized as being drafted. 

Yes, speed rushers were one of the things that was pointed out, but i was referencing where you said it was his only problem. 

I too think he's going to play better at guard, and help the Bengals, more than he would have at tackle.