(11-06-2015, 04:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. Rep.

To be more specific, when there used to be Cam vs Andy debates. Then rush TD's were discussed. If we were talking positively about Dalton's rush numbers, then rush TD's were to be disregarded.

i was amazed to see newton on the MVP watch list with a 11:8 TD/INT ratio and 4 Rushing Tds with 2 fumbles.

(11-06-2015, 04:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. Rep.

To be more specific, when there used to be Cam vs Andy debates. Then rush TD's were discussed. If we were talking positively about Dalton's rush numbers, then rush TD's were to be disregarded.

That's a bit misleading.

It's not just Andy, and it's not just Cam.

If a QB is a dual threat player, you often get into their rushing ability as a reason why they're great/good/not good or whatever the argument is. You don't really talk much about rushing yards, TDs, and whatnot with guys that aren't that type of QB. It is however, acceptable to bring up total TDs, but it "means more" to a lot of people when it's not a bunch of QB sneaks from the 1 after the guy doesn't rush for anything on the drive beforehand. Brady's TD sneaks are less impressive than Kaepernick's scrambles, but we all know who is clearly the better QB.

If we were discussing Russell Wilson vs Matt Ryan, you may want to bring up Wilson's ability on the ground that makes up for his lack of what Ryan has in the arm, but it's not trying to say that Ryan's rushing stats should be totally disregarded, just that they don't mean as much when it's likely just some QB sneaks from the 1 for his rushing TDs.

Andy is a bit different now because last year and also this year he has shown some ability on the ground that is somewhat impressive.

Let's not pretend that Andy's rushing ability was worth bringing up against Cam back when those arguments happened (around 2011-2013).

(11-06-2015, 04:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: i was amazed to see newton on the MVP watch list with a 11:8 TD/INT ratio and 4 Rushing Tds with 2 fumbles.

It's less about numbers and more about Newton literally having to carry this offense.

We talk about the injuries the Bengals have had on offense, look at the Panthers. They lose their #1 receiver and then their next best receiver is Ginn. He literally has little to nothing besides Olsen. The fact that they're 7-0 is very surprising. He deserves to be in the conversation, but certainly not the winner.

(11-06-2015, 04:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Probably listened to the media too much. They've been drilling it into people's heads for 4 years that Dalton has somehow held this team back and that he had a limited ceiling due to lack of physical skills. Completely ignoring that guys like Brady, Brees and Peyton aren't exactly gifted physically.

Also, I think Palmer just looked the part and had the draft status. As hard as it may be, people need to let go of preconceived notions and just see Dalton for what he is. He's always been solid and he's becoming a top guy at his position.

Fwiw, Dalton is actually one of the better QBs in the league at NOT fumbling the ball, and even though his INT% used to be a pinch high, it's actually lower than Palmer's. So your confidence in Palmer and doubt in Dalton is puzzling.

Yes very puzzling I agree.  Thing is I know Palmer didn't do much but I think it was his draft status and maybe him being the first real QB we've seen any success with for quite awhile.  That and all the media hype that surrounded Carson with him being a Heisman Trophy winner.  Carson did/does have a cannon on him.  

Andy certainly has done more for us than Carson has.  Eventually I'll come around and in the mean time I will refrain from posting any negative Andy comments on here.  

(11-06-2015, 05:11 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: It's less about numbers and more about Newton literally having to carry this offense.

We talk about the injuries the Bengals have had on offense, look at the Panthers. They lose their #1 receiver and then their next best receiver is Ginn. He literally has little to nothing besides Olsen. The fact that they're 7-0 is very surprising. He deserves to be in the conversation, but certainly not the winner.

Cam is playing ok.  I'd attribute his team's success to their defense playing lights out before I'd ever give Cam credit.  I thought I saw somewhere how Kaepernick's stats at the time of his benching were similar to Cams.  

https://twitter.com/MarcIstookNFL/status/661604191773691904/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

(11-06-2015, 05:18 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Yes very puzzling I agree.  Thing is I know Palmer didn't do much but I think it was his draft status and maybe him being the first real QB we've seen any success with for quite awhile.  That and all the media hype that surrounded Carson with him being a Heisman Trophy winner.  Carson did/does have a cannon on him.  

Andy certainly has done more for us than Carson has.  Eventually I'll come around and in the mean time I will refrain from posting any negative Andy comments on here.  

well in two weeks we can see them head to head both seemly playing their best ball yet.

(11-06-2015, 05:21 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Cam is playing ok. I'd attribute his team's success to their defense playing lights out before I'd ever give Cam credit. I thought I saw somewhere how Kaepernick's stats at the time of his benching were similar to Cams.

https://twitter.com/MarcIstookNFL/status/661604191773691904/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Norman the CB is have a DPOY type season and their 2 linebackers are beast.

(11-06-2015, 05:11 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: It's less about numbers and more about Newton literally having to carry this offense.

We talk about the injuries the Bengals have had on offense, look at the Panthers. They lose their #1 receiver and then their next best receiver is Ginn. He literally has little to nothing besides Olsen. The fact that they're 7-0 is very surprising. He deserves to be in the conversation, but certainly not the winner.

The Defense is the reason that team is 7-0.

Not only that but you need to factor in their schedule.

They play in a weak division (NFCS) and they have another weak division (AFCS).  When they played the Saints it was with Brees out.

The only quality win that they had was going into Seattle and beating the Seahawks (this is my opinion).  However one could speculate that the Seahawks came out flat due to the emotional let down of losing to us the week before.

The Panthers are going into a tough stretch here with the Packers (but they do get them at home), they have the 2 tougher teams in the NFCE to play in the Giants and Cowboys, both away games.  Not only that but then they will have to play AT NO, AT Atlanta, and they also have to contend with the Falcons in Charlotte.

That isn't to take away what they have accomplished.  It also isn't meant to criticize Newton.  However for a long time Dalton was said to only be successful due to having a defense to carry him (something that Cam had lacked) and in the case of last year having a easy schedule.  These are things that Cam has now, but instead of analyst pointing that out, they instead want to call Newton the MVP.  If Dalton had his numbers and the our team was still 8-0, no one would call for Dalton to be MVP.

I checked the Panthers schedule and noticed something else about their Seattle match up.  They were also coming off a Bye, so that also was in favor of them.

(11-06-2015, 04:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. Rep.

To be more specific, when there used to be Cam vs Andy debates. Then rush TD's were discussed. If we were talking positively about Dalton's rush numbers, then rush TD's were to be disregarded.

I don't really think anyone has said to disregard his rushing stats...only that they were not typically included in the TD:INT ratio stat.

(11-06-2015, 04:59 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That's a bit misleading.

It's not just Andy, and it's not just Cam.

If a QB is a dual threat player, you often get into their rushing ability as a reason why they're great/good/not good or whatever the argument is. You don't really talk much about rushing yards, TDs, and whatnot with guys that aren't that type of QB. It is however, acceptable to bring up total TDs, but it "means more" to a lot of people when it's not a bunch of QB sneaks from the 1 after the guy doesn't rush for anything on the drive beforehand. Brady's TD sneaks are less impressive than Kaepernick's scrambles, but we all know who is clearly the better QB.

If we were discussing Russell Wilson vs Matt Ryan, you may want to bring up Wilson's ability on the ground that makes up for his lack of what Ryan has in the arm, but it's not trying to say that Ryan's rushing stats should be totally disregarded, just that they don't mean as much when it's likely just some QB sneaks from the 1 for his rushing TDs.

Andy is a bit different now because last year and also this year he has shown some ability on the ground that is somewhat impressive.

Let's not pretend that Andy's rushing ability was worth bringing up against Cam back when those arguments happened (around 2011-2013).

I get that, but that doesn't mean that Dalton's (roughly) 200 yards and 2-4 TD's should be disregarded. While he's not exactly a "dual threat", let's not pretend that Dalton hasn't helped this team with his legs. Numerous times.

Comparing Dalton's rush skills to those of Brady and Ryan isn't exactly fair or accurate. Heck, Brady just had his first rushing TD in like 4-5 years. Dalton has 13 (?) in his 4.5 year career.

Btw, Dalton (despite the 2 TD's) is having the worst rushing season of his career. I think he's averaging around 1.4 ypc.

(11-06-2015, 07:52 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I don't really think anyone has said to disregard his rushing stats...only that they were not typically included in the TD:INT ratio stat.

I saw things a bit differently, probably because we were on opposite ends of the Andy debate. Dalton's rush stats were usually met with a shrug. 

Heck, DJS is kinda doing that right now by suggesting that Dalton rush stats weren't relevant to any Dalton vs Newton/Kaep debates.

(11-06-2015, 02:35 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: When do people count rushing TDs in passing stats? 

When they have a secret crush on Dalton.

(11-07-2015, 01:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Heck, DJS is kinda doing that right now by suggesting that Dalton rush stats weren't relevant to any Dalton vs Newton/Kaep debates.

I mean, I'm not trying to say they aren't relevant at all, just not the best thing to bring up in an Andy debate is what I'm saying. You usually want to focus on the pocket passing of Andy or Brady while you usually shift to the rushing ability of a Cam or Wilson to discuss their strength that makes up for what they lack where Andy/Brady thrive.

Outside of a handful of read option plays (that were pretty sick btw) in 2014, Andy hasn't impressed much with his rushing, but I won't hold that against him. It's hard to put exactly what I'm trying to say into words, but I feel like you know what I mean. When you talk about Cam you have to bring up his athletic ability on the ground because that makes up a huge part of his game. Andy's few sneaks for TDs don't give me a boner because (mostly other than 2014) he isn't running around much otherwise unless he's forced to.

To use 2 QBs that I'm not a fan of at all for an example, I just think Colin Kaepernick's rushing yards and TDs seem weighed at a different amount than Eli Manning's if you're discussing which QB is better. Also, whether any of us think it's fair or not, dual threat QBs can have more mediocre than usual passing stats and still be considered pretty good due to their other skills they bring to the table. I'm a big fan of the classic pocket passer myself, but I do believe RW and Cam are both great QBs.

(11-07-2015, 01:19 AM)BengalChris Wrote: When they have a secret crush on Dalton.

Dude, Brownshoe doesn't even TRY to hide it. It's no secret

(11-06-2015, 06:03 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: The Defense is the reason that team is 7-0.

Not only that but you need to factor in their schedule.

They play in a weak division (NFCS) and they have another weak division (AFCS).  When they played the Saints it was with Brees out.

The only quality win that they had was going into Seattle and beating the Seahawks (this is my opinion).  However one could speculate that the Seahawks came out flat due to the emotional let down of losing to us the week before.

The Panthers are going into a tough stretch here with the Packers (but they do get them at home), they have the 2 tougher teams in the NFCE to play in the Giants and Cowboys, both away games.  Not only that but then they will have to play AT NO, AT Atlanta, and they also have to contend with the Falcons in Charlotte.

That isn't to take away what they have accomplished.  It also isn't meant to criticize Newton.  However for a long time Dalton was said to only be successful due to having a defense to carry him (something that Cam had lacked) and in the case of last year having a easy schedule.  These are things that Cam has now, but instead of analyst pointing that out, they instead want to call Newton the MVP.  If Dalton had his numbers and the our team was still 8-0, no one would call for Dalton to be MVP.

I checked the Panthers schedule and noticed something else about their Seattle match up.  They were also coming off a Bye, so that also was in favor of them.

Agreed. Carolina has benefitted from an incredibly easy schedule. Seattle is the only even partly credible team they have played. It's part and parcel of playing in one of the two worst divisions in the NFL (the AFSC is also horrible). And they get the benefit of getting their only strong opponent all season (Green Bay) at home. To put it lightly the schedulers favored them in the home vs. away arena.

(11-06-2015, 04:30 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: I've been a huge critic of Andy in the past but I have to admit he's doing a tremendous job running this offense this year.  But for some reason I cannot figure out why I am always feeling like with him at QB he is going to have a bad INT or fumble every play.  

I just cannot get comfortable with the idea of him being an elite QB.  With Carson, until the very end I thought as long as he was our QB we could win any game.   I thought him to be elite and he had to do a whole slew of things to make me think otherwise.  Now with Andy he's done some really good things this year yet I'm still not convinced.  I still feel like with Andy at QB we could lose any game because he could show up and have a game like he did last year's Thursday night game against the Browns.  

I've never wanted to see the guy fail but I'm still too afraid to believe he is the QB to win us a Championship.  Guess I'm just damaged.  

Bias is the only word that can describe your thinking from my viewpoint.. because if you look over their QB history... especially as a Bengal, Dalton has already won more bigger games and comebacks than Palmer did as QB here.

(11-06-2015, 02:31 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: He has a 5:1 TD:INT ratio. Unless you're only talking about passing TDs.

Uhhhhh.... Rushing TDs to interception ratio isn't a stat. They were talking about red zone passing nit overall efficiency.

I mean, he can't throw an INT while running the football so why would rushing TDs be included in that stat?

Pretty amazing alright.

What is so nice is that he acquired these amazing stats and now he is becoming better in every aspect.

He has a much higher ceiling than i think any of us thought.

(11-06-2015, 02:14 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Andy Dalton is now 31-0-1 when the Bengals score 25+ points. The Bengals have never lost a game with Dalton when they score 25+ points. Never.

His red zone numbers for his career are 82 TDs and 5 interceptions.

Those stats are really impressive. However I've been noticing that Daltons been throwing more INTs in the endzone. Two this year. I remember when he was renowned for not doing that. 

(11-07-2015, 01:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I saw things a bit differently, probably because we were on opposite ends of the Andy debate. Dalton's rush stats were usually met with a shrug. 

Heck, DJS is kinda doing that right now by suggesting that Dalton rush stats weren't relevant to any Dalton vs Newton/Kaep debates.

Oh, I thought you were talking about this thread in specific, rather than the whole debate about the guy.

Regarding this thread, Brownshoe wanted to include rushing TDs in the TD:INT ratio stat, which I've never seen anyone do.  I don't think there is anything negative about pointing out that that's a silly suggestion.

Regarding the "Dalton Debate", I've never really considered Dalton to be much of a running threat.  Not that he can't do it...he's had the skills to run the ball since college and would occasionally do so.  It's just that it seems that the coaches have held back on using that part of his game.

Dunno why folks want Andy to run the ball more since it's one of the easiest ways for a QB to get seriously injured .. Mobility is one thing, but as a runner he's much more vulnerable to taking bad hits. The last thing we need right now is to have to have McCarron pressed into service to mop up the rest of the season.

Sometimes the arguments on this board are so asinine. Seriously, who cares whether Dalton's rushing TDs are accounted for in his TD/INT ratio?

Anyway, I wasn't aware of Dalton's undefeated record when the Bengals score 25 points. That's quite surprising and I think it's great. It's a far cry from the shootout losses we experienced in the prior era. I do think it says more about the performance of the defense since 2011 than it says about any one player.