(07-07-2021, 01:04 AM)Whatever Wrote: Teams with good rosters don't have multiple off-season threads annoiting Auden Tate as a WR2 like we did last year.  

Man, do you hate Auden Tate.  I feel like you talk about him more than anyone else on this entire site.  And I don't recall a single person "annointing" him as a WR2 last year. 

It seems like people saying he could have a nice year, or could be a nice 3/4 piece enraged you so much it made you think they had him penciled in for 1,000 yards.

(07-06-2021, 11:50 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So it couldn't happen?

Did he say that?  Why put words into someone's mouth? 

He clearly said that it would take a heckuva jump in play to break into the top 10.  That's entirely different than saying it can't happen.

(07-06-2021, 09:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree, we have been turning over the roster, called a rebuild, I'm not dumping on all the coaches, sure we could have performed better but , this  is ZTs team now, very few left pre 2 years ago, we have one of the youngest teams I read no surprise to our ranking but this is the year to actually start judging more of our roster.

this has been ZTs team for two years and its 6-25-1

(07-07-2021, 11:08 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Man, do you hate Auden Tate.  I feel like you talk about him more than anyone else on this entire site.  And I don't recall a single person "annointing" him as a WR2 last year. 

It seems like people saying he could have a nice year, or could be a nice 3/4 piece enraged you so much it made you think they had him penciled in for 1,000 yards.

The vitriol he has with Tate..... just wow. Nearly every post I've seen on Tate says words to the effect of " he might be a decent complimentary piece to the O" 

How he and a couple others twist that into he's J. Rice 2.0 ? I have no idea ?

(07-07-2021, 11:08 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Man, do you hate Auden Tate.  I feel like you talk about him more than anyone else on this entire site.  And I don't recall a single person "annointing" him as a WR2 last year. 

It seems like people saying he could have a nice year, or could be a nice 3/4 piece enraged you so much it made you think they had him penciled in for 1,000 yards.

(07-07-2021, 11:39 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The vitriol he has with Tate..... just wow. Nearly every post I've seen on Tate says words to the effect of " he might be a decent complimentary piece to the O" 

How he and a couple others twist that into he's J. Rice 2.0 ? I have no idea ?

I have like 4 posts mentioning Auden Tate going back to May per the search feature.  And two of them were in the thread Fred created about Tate specifically.

I can name names regarding him as a WR2, but that's against the CoC and I'm not going to commit thread necromancy just to prove a point.  If you doubt that, go back and read through those Tate threads from last off-season. 

The point I was making was regarding fans of bad teams overhyping their own players.  Can either of you think of a guy that was hyped more and did less to help the team last year than Tate?

I also don't know how you get "Jerry Rice 2.0" out of stating the fact that people were calling him a WR2. If you're going to call others out for twisting words, you might want to try not twisting other people's words.

(07-07-2021, 02:20 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Buffalo's defense last year was 14th overall, 16th in scoring, 3rd in takeaways, and 15th in sacks. Not an elite defense by any means, but above average while being very good at taking the ball from the opposing team. Hardly what one would call a bad defense.

Playing the Jets and Patriots twice each last year helped those rankings. Looking at their scores from last year I’m surprised they were 16th in scoring. They gave up 20+ on 10 games last year, which I wouldn’t consider good but maybe standards have changed… safe to say, I’d take their defense over ours any day.

(07-07-2021, 12:52 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Playing the Jets and Patriots twice each last year helped those rankings.

Guarantee you never said that about the patriots when they would beat up the other afc east teams

The 2000 ravens beat up on some horrible offenses

Bengals have done nothing really in recent years to make them be graded higher. Understand grade completely and wouldn't expect it to be higher actually. .

Yet obviously there can be major improvements in many of those numbers especially at QB and LT where it matters the most.

Could see this season going either direction yet think it will be on the upward spiral personally.

Want a glimmer of hope ? Bengals last two SB trips came after bad seasons.

One was a 6 win season and the most recent was after a 4 win season, just like we had last year.

Now I believe they are still a year or so away, yet stranger things have happened in NFL.

Will believe until they show me otherwise in games.

(07-07-2021, 12:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Guarantee you never said that about the patriots when they would beat up the other afc east teams

The 2000 ravens beat up on some horrible offenses

I did. The Pats deserve an asterisk next to each of their SBs. Not for Brady's balls or video taping other teams (I would have killed for Marvin to have been that inventive and driven to win), but for getting to beat up on the worst division in football over the last 20+ years and virtually being assured of home field advantage and a first round bye every season.

2000 Ravens didn't beat up on horrible teams. The Ravens offense was, in and of itself, awful. The Ravens scored 6 points or less 4 times that season. All losses while the defense gave up 19, 10, 7 (Score was 14, but the 2nd TN TD was off of a pick 6), & 9.

I predict they'll be the greatest, the worst or somewhere between the two this year.. Somewhere between #1 and #32 2-31 sounds possible..1? ehh..doubt it..32? Doubt that too..
How's that for real commitment?

(07-07-2021, 01:18 PM)grampahol Wrote: I predict they'll be the greatest, the worst or somewhere between the two this year.. Somewhere between #1 and #32 2-31 sounds possible..1? ehh..doubt it..32? Doubt that too..
How's that for real commitment?

About in line with your other gems.

To anyone getting worked up over the 24th ranking...

The people who make these lists aren't really taking a magnifying glass to the Bengals roster or combing through position by position analysis of each roster spot on each team and breaking them down to compare.

On the surface, 24th seems right - or maybe a little too high (BTW, I think the Bengals roster is in a great place... but it is what it is AT THIS POINT IN TIME: Unproven Potential). What's the big complaint with the ranking? And, before you answer... how much do you know about the roster of the next 10 teams above the Bengals? I would wager not enough to intelligently debate against their rankings.

(07-07-2021, 01:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Pats deserve an asterisk next to each of their SBs.

Whatever you say, boss

(07-06-2021, 11:18 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Williams is currently only rated higher then 6 other LT's, so getting to top 10 status would be one hell of a jump.

 The guy was pretty good for a first year starter. So expecting him to make a huge jump in his second season shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation. 

(07-06-2021, 09:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree, we have been turning over the roster, called a rebuild, I'm not dumping on all the coaches, sure we could have performed better but , this  is ZTs team now, very few left pre 2 years ago, we have one of the youngest teams I read no surprise to our ranking but this is the year to actually start judging more of our roster.

It was ZT's team last year and the year before, I'd like to point out. His record is his record.

You don't get better by getting worse, at least not if you want to actually win consistently.

 

(07-06-2021, 01:28 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: ESPN has released their rankings for all 32 NFL teams and instead of just some guy giving his take, they went with PFF grades.

With the 2021 draft and free agency behind us, we're breaking down each team's roster using the PFF database, with an eye toward the projected starters. We looked at both the PFF grades from the 2020 season -- a number included for every projected starter -- and a more comprehensive look at each player's career using both PFF grades and statistics.

Pro Football Focus grades of 90-plus categorize as elite, 80-89.9 are good/high quality, 70-79.9 fall under average and 69.9 or lower are considered below average.

For rookies and players not active (or barely active) in 2020, we used college grades or NFL grades from earlier seasons. NFL grades from 2019 or earlier are marked with (*), college grades from 2020 are marked with (**), and college grades from 2019 or earlier are marked with (***).

Here's how the 32 rosters stack up heading into this season, complete with each lineup's biggest strengths, weaknesses and X factors.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/31700971/nfl-roster-rankings-all-32-teams-2021-strengths-weaknesses-x-factors-every-team-starting-lineup


For those of you without ESPN+

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/bengals-roster-near-the-bottom-of-the-nfl-in-latest-rankings


24. Cincinnati Bengals

Biggest strength: Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase's connection in 2019 at LSU, particularly on deep balls, was special. Chase caught 24 of 36 passes in which Burrow targeted him 20 or more yards downfield that year. Fourteen of those receptions were touchdowns. As a rookie last season, Burrow completed just nine of 48 passes 20 or more yards downfield overall. Cincinnati will be hoping that an NFL reunion between Burrow and Chase will help solve some of those deep passing woes. Chase, Tee Higgins and Tyler Boyd are one of the league's better wide receiver trios on paper.

Biggest weakness: The Bengals' offensive line should be better in 2021 than it was last season. But that isn't a high bar to clear. There are still legitimate reasons for concern on the interior offensive line in Cincinnati. Second-round rookie Jackson Carman, Quinton Spain, Xavier Su'a-Filo and Michael Jordan are among the team's top options at guard. The last three combined for a 55.7 PFF grade last season with the Bengals, while Carman will be transitioning from left tackle at Clemson to right guard in the NFL.

X factor for 2021: Cincinnati handed out sizable offseason contracts to both D.J. Reader and Trae Waynes last offseason. The two combined for 259 defensive snaps (all by Reader) due to injury. Reader took a clear step forward in his career with Houston in 2019 (85.4 PFF grade), and Waynes earned overall grades of at least 66.0 in each of his final three seasons with the Vikings -- a solid mark at the cornerback position. Healthy returns for those two veterans should bring a steadying presence to this defense.


OFFENSE                                              DEFENSE
QB Joe Burrow (75.1)                            DI D.J. Reader (69.6)
RB Joe Mixon (65.3)                              DI Larry Ogunjobi (51.4)
RB Samaje Perine (76.7)                        ED Trey Hendrickson (70.9)
WR Ja'Marr Chase (91.1***)                  ED Sam Hubbard (68.0)
WR Tee Higgins (75.9)                          LB Germaine Pratt (41.5)
WR Tyler Boyd (75.8)                            LB Logan Wilson (54.7)
TE Drew Sample (61.4)                          LB Akeem Davis-Gaither (40.7)
LT Jonah Williams (70.1)                        CB Trae Waynes (67.0*)
LG Quinton Spain (56.7)                         CB Chidobe Awuzie (51.9)
C Trey Hopkins (63.8)                            CB Mike Hilton (63.7)
RG Jackson Carman (79.2**)                  S Vonn Bell (71.5)
RT Riley Reiff (71.4)                              S Jessie Bates III (90.1)

In the summer of 1978, Sporting News and Street & Smith NFL Rosters and Predictions magazines came out. They both picked the Bengals to win the AFC Central and also go to The Super Bowl and lose to The Cowboys.  It amazed me because Bengals were not that great in 1977.  So I graded all teams O Lines, Defenses, WR's, RB's, QBs, Coaches and I saw these magazines were over looking The Pittsburg Steelers of 1978 still had maybe the best team in NFL.  

My point to that is what Paul Brown said on The Paul Brown Show with Phil Samp back in preseason of 1971. He said, " Summer is when all these magazines hit the stands predicting where every team will finish and who will win The Championship. It makes me wonder why we even play the season. Except every year these sports magazines are always wrong, so I think we will go ahead and play the season anyway. "  With that said, Paul Brown laughed. 

It is no different now. You can not go on summer media predictions by reporters, announcers and such.  Many of you have listened to these summer predicters in the past, only to find out they picked everything wrong. If you gamble, it is your money you are losing by listening to them. They themselves probably aren't putting their money where their mouth is on their picks.  They will go heavy on last years Super Bowl teams as always, but they back it up with 2 teams who came close to the Super Bowl, and Any of us on here could do That. 

Now this is only Coach Taylors 2nd summer practices with preseasons.  In 2019 he did not know any of these players. In 2020 the covid summer allowed little coaching up of players.  This will be the first summer where Coach Taylor has been here, and also gets to Coach Up the players.  This is why they have Summer Camp and preseason, to Coach Up the players, it is NOT for the fans. 

We as Bengals Fans know the situation. We do not need media who hardly follow the Bengals opinion, We Know.   
#1. Hopefully Joe Burrow is healthy
#2. Joe Burrow can not be expect to pass all game long, all season long, or he will get very injured. 
#3. The Offensive Line MUST protect The Quarterback, which it has not done since 2016. 
#4. This means the O Line players must be Coached Up into 5 starters blocking as 1 unit this summer. 
#5. I do NOT expect them to become a Super Bowl O Line right away, but they MUST be good enough to Protect The Quarterback. 
#6. An improved O Line would also open more running lanes. 
#7. Bengals must Run The Ball more, or Burrow will get clobbered. THE RUN slows down THE PASS RUSH. 
#8. The DEFENSE needs Coached Up as team has moved on from Atkins and Dunlap era. 

These are all question marks going into summer camp and preseason. Nobody said rebuilding this team would be Easy. 

On the ESPN thing, I say they under rate Boyd and Higgins and over rate rookie Chase.  Chase has a lot to learn in the NFL. He should be very good, but at this point I rate Boyd as #1 and Higgins as #2 on what they have done in the NFL.  Boyd must be the most under rated player in the NFL every season.  Now AJ Greens production fell way off the last 2 years, and that let defenses double team Boyd and Higgins.  Adding Chase will put Boyd and Higgins in more one on one and We know how dominate Boyd and Higgins can be. ESPN greatly under rates Boyd and Higgins.  

ESPN also assumes Sample at TE, and that is no sure thing. TE is up for grabs in preseason.  Nobody puts Sample up there with Kelce or Gronk. Sample is one who needs to improve his game a lot more.  Bengals TE's better be able to HELP BLOCK more than anything, because in 3rd and long they probably won't even be on the field in 3 or 4 WR sets. 

If The Blocking is Good and The Tackling is Good, The Team will be Good.  
If The Blocking is Bad and The Tackling is Bad, The Team will be Bad
Burrow, Mixon, Boyd, Higgins, Chase will do nothing if The Blockers can not provide TIME to execute The Playbook. 

So as my football coach use to say on laps on dirt track and field around football field to start practices, " OK Boys, Time to hit the old dusty trail ".  That was very John Wayne Western but accurate.  Soon The 2021 Bengals will hit the old dusty trail and start summer camp and preseason.  Their goal will be Super Bowl as it should be. Good, set the bar high. Aim for the middle of the bullseye as not to miss the target completely. My expectations are lower. Much like The Longest Yard and the prison practice dummy team, they must learn how to PROTECT THE SUPERSTAR, which is Quarterback Joe Burrow.   If they can NOT learn how to do this in summer camp preseason, Burrow may have as short a career as AFL Rookie of The Year 1969 Greg Cook.  If a cheap Walmart O Line causes Burrow to have a very short career, then the Bengals will flounder in Last Place many more years to come. 

Nobody really knows WHAT the 2021 Bengals are going to look like, since they are still in New Dey Rebuild. They better get their butts into camp and learn how to PROTECT THE SUPERSTAR.  Those who can't Block on the O Line need Fired and Cut, there is no time or room for them. It all starts with IMPROVED BLOCKING and THAT must be achieved in camp. I do not want Joe Burrow to be the next Greg Cook as fans say forever more, " What If ".   Even with improved blocking, Coach Taylor must call more running plays.  The Browns, Ravens and Steelers do NOT play Arena League touch football. If you pass on every play, they will kill your quarterback. So Run the Rock more. Pound that football with The Run. Take some steam out of the Defense pass rush.  Coach Taylor better learn this is NOT West Coast Football, and when you play 6 games against Browns, Ravens and Steelers, you better be able to Run The Ball. If your QB drops back to pass all game against them, your QB will get killed. Even the best O Line will not prevent that. So Run even if The Fans Boo and want the pass. Many times the Bengals Fans Boos came down on Paul Brown for calling running plays, but Paul Brown knew a million times more than the Bengal Fans. Sometimes you run it even if the fans don't like it. YOU MUST PROTECT THE SUPERSTAR FRANCHISE QB.

I will add, ESPN or Nobody predicted Bengals would go Super Bowl in 1981. They were picked for Last Place. However the media picked Bengals to go Super Bowl in 1978 and they finished last place. Do not bet the farm on what media is predicting in summer of 2021. Paul Brown always thought preseason media predictions were nonsense.

(07-07-2021, 01:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I did. The Pats deserve an asterisk next to each of their SBs. Not for Brady's balls or video taping other teams (I would have killed for Marvin to have been that inventive and driven to win), but for getting to beat up on the worst division in football over the last 20+ years and virtually being assured of home field advantage and a first round bye every season.

2000 Ravens didn't beat up on horrible teams. The Ravens offense was, in and of itself, awful. The Ravens scored 6 points or less 4 times that season. All losses while the defense gave up 19, 10, 7 (Score was 14, but the 2nd TN TD was off of a pick 6), & 9.

That's a really bad take on the Pats success in their dynasty years.  They were indeed dominant in a bad division, but they were also 134-44 vs non divisional opponents from 01-2019.  They weren't just feasting vs inferior teams, either.  They went 24-14 vs eventual division winners.  They almost always had to play the AFC's first place teams from the previous year.  

There's no way to look at their wins and who they were against and say that they were anything but dominant over most of that stretch.  They beat the Steelers, probably the next most consistent franchise in the conference something like 12 out of 16 times over that stretch (I particularly enjoyed that).  They were 9-4 vs the Ravens over the same period of time.  Denver probably fared best vs them winning 10 of 19.  

(07-07-2021, 03:32 PM)samhain Wrote: That's a really bad take on the Pats success in their dynasty years.  They were indeed dominant in a bad division, but they were also 134-44 vs non divisional opponents from 01-2019.  They weren't just feasting vs inferior teams, either.  They went 24-14 vs eventual division winners.  They almost always had to play the AFC's first place teams from the previous year.  

There's no way to look at their wins and who they were against and say that they were anything but dominant over most of that stretch.  They beat the Steelers, probably the next most consistent franchise in the conference something like 12 out of 16 times over that stretch (I particularly enjoyed that).  They were 9-4 vs the Ravens over the same period of time.  Denver probably fared best vs them winning 10 of 19.  

I wasn't actually being serious. However....

Their division was garbage and it absolutely helped them. That has to be the worst division in football over the last 20 years. Hell, none of them even had a long term franchise QB over that time frame. Tom Brady saw an actual franchise QB maybe twice a season. So, while I applaud the Pats for being a dynasty, I cannot help but think there are other things that were likely to happen if the Pats played in the AFCN, for example, over the last 20 years. Or the NFCE or NFCN. Just from a health standpoint, I don't see how Brady plays virtually untouched for 20 some years. Nearly half his schedule was against the 3 worst teams in the NFL... for 20 years.

It would make a fun experiment to take a look at the playoff brackets the Patriots have been in and see their path and how many franchise QBs he actually faced in the playoffs and what his record was against them and then look at how many teams he played who had an OK or journeyman QB at the helm and what he did against those guys. Like, was there a consistent path that he had where he only needed to beat 1 good QB to make the Superbowl? Or, did he maybe face several in the brackets and beat them? Or none? And what were the outcomes?

(07-07-2021, 04:44 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  Nearly half his schedule was against the 3 worst teams in the NFL... for 20 years.

Actually Brady played pretty much as many tough games in the regular season as any other QB because EVERY year they had to play EVERY AFC division Champion plus one NFC Division champion.

In the 19 year New England dynasty ('01-'19) the Pats played 99 regular season games against playoff teams while the second best team in the AFC (Steelers) played just 8 more (107) and the best team in the NFC (Packers) played 6 more (105).

But what is really shocking is how dominate the Pats were against these playoff teams during the regular season. The Pats outscored playoff teams by 568 points during the regular season while winning .636% of those games.  The second best team against playoff opponents (Stealers) had a negative point differential (-32) and a losing record (.453%).  The Pats were 17 games OVER .500 against playoff teams while the second best team was 10 games UNDER .500.

In the post season the Pats had TWICE as many wins (30) as the second best team over the period (Stealers 15).  No other team was within 100 points of the Pats postseason winning % (.732), and the Pats postseason point differential (+261) is almost 4 times greater than the second best team (Seattle +69).

(07-07-2021, 07:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Brady played pretty much as many tough games in the regular season as any other QB because EVERY year they had to play EVERY AFC division Champion plus one NFC Division champion.

In the 19 year New England dynasty ('01-'19) the Pats played 99 regular season games against playoff teams while the second best team in the AFC (Steelers) played just 8 More (107) and the best team in the NFL (Packers) played 6 more (105).

But what is really shocking is how dominate the Pats were against these playoff teams during the regular season. The Pats outscored playoff teams by 568 points during the regular season while winning .636% of those games.  The second best team against playoff opponents (Stealers) had a negative point differential (-32) and a losing record (.453%).  The Pats were 17 games OVER .500 against playoff teams while the second best team was 10 games UNDER .500.

In the post season the Pats had TWICE as many wins (30) as the second best team over the period (Stealers 15).  No other team was within 100 points of the Pats postseason winning % (.732), and the Pats postseason point differential (+261) is almost 4 times greater than the second best team (Seattle +69).

I have to give the other Toast props here.  Fred can pull numbers like nobody's business.  These stats just murdered the argument it was up against.