(07-15-2021, 12:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You're comparing performances of a veteran QB who, for the majority of his career, had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and a veteran HC to Joe Burrow who, as a rookie, didn't even get an offseason program and had one of the worst rosters in the NFL.

You struggle with context and critical thought, Fred. It's your achilles heel in any discussion.

when the hell did dalton have one of the most talented rosters in the nfl 2015? definately wasnt more than 1 season based on what i saw on the field. so definately wasnt the majority of his career.

This reminded me of that time in the preseason when Rex Ryan put Sanchez out there behind a backup o line and got him injured.  That was odd at the time, but I guess in hindsight no one cares about Sanchez so it was only a controversy for a blip of time.

(07-15-2021, 08:56 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: when the hell did dalton have one of the most talented rosters in the nfl 2015? definately wasnt more than 1 season based on what i saw on the field. so definately wasnt the majority of his career.

2013, 2014 (injuries derailed), and 2015. 

Could argue 2012 but the offensive weapons were younger but Andrew Hawkins was a solid slot receiver.

(07-15-2021, 09:14 AM)Synric Wrote: 2013, 2014 (injuries derailed), and 2015. 

Ah the 2014 playoffs where we had a fleeting hope that AJ being out would lead to Dalton spreading the ball around, like Brady.  Oof. 

(07-15-2021, 09:17 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Ah the 2014 playoffs where we had a fleeting hope that AJ being out would lead to Dalton spreading the ball around, like Brady.  Oof. 

there was no one left to really throw the ball to in that playoff game...  Wasnt our backup RB our leading receiver that game?

(07-15-2021, 09:14 AM)Synric Wrote: 2013, 2014 (injuries derailed), and 2015. 

Could argue 2012 but the offensive weapons were younger but Andrew Hawkins was a solid slot receiver.

damn you guys like to revision history.

(07-15-2021, 09:53 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: damn you guys like to revision history.

It was wishful thinking in a snapshot moment.  We hoped it more than believed it.  The other option was admitting we were screwed, I guess

But whener we lost AJ we did have this notion that we'd be ok because dalton locks onto him too much. 

Whoops quoted the wrong post.  At any rate Gio was our top receiver but it was a mistake day fir sure. Dalton was 18/35 for 155 yards.  

(07-15-2021, 08:56 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: when the hell did dalton have one of the most talented rosters in the nfl 2015? definately wasnt more than 1 season based on what i saw on the field. so definately wasnt the majority of his career.

2012
2013
2014
2015

^ All excellent rosters. 13, 14, 15 had great players entering their prime years on both offense & defense. (3rd, 4th, 5th year guys who ended up being absolute monsters.... And an established coaching staff by then. Both Coordinators, Jackson, Zimmer, & Gruden, went on to be HCs. Jackson for a 2nd time. And, say what you will about Jackson and Gruden going to dysfunctional organizations, they are both respected coordonators in the NFL.

So, Dalton had both outstanding rosters AND excellent coaches behind him. Burrow has a 2nd year staff, a roster in complete rebuild mode, and COVID... and people want to try and compare and say they were similar performing? One guy (AD) ended up being on a luxury cruise liner with an experienced captain and staff while the other (Burrow) was given a kayak and half a map.

- I am a fair person. The 2016 roster was gross. Especially when it came to skill position players... look at WR in 2016. When you factor in the injuries it was particularly brutal. However, at that stage in his career... season 6... I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the franchise QB to "float boats" (so to speak) by raising people up to their best through his play. In 2016 the O line was certainly better the Burrow had last year. No question. Burrow had better weapons as a rookie for sure... although AJ Green being out there playing as a main target actually somehow HURT the Bengals, IMO.

How long do you think NFL windows stay open? This article on that topic  is fascinating https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nfl/2020/8/26/21402162/nfl-title-windows-chiefs-ravens-buccaneers

The Bengals window looked to be about 4 seasons with an amazing roster and so-so QB. The article draws and connects dots showing that great QB play typically showed a much larger window for winning a super bowl. The Bengals 4 year window kind of lets us see where AD was in terms of QB play vs the roster around him. As the roster talent dwindled after the 2015 season, the Bengals collectively fell out of the window as it slammed shut.

Thus, I rest my my case that AD had excellent rosters coupled with excellent coaching... and then when those things went away, so did the Bengals opportunity to win. AD wasnt very good AS A VETERAN, which was the point I was making to Fred's... which lacked context.

Joey B had a rebuilding roster... ravaged by injuries.... and a 2nd year coach trying to learn on the job... along w no offseason and COVID crap to deal with.

^ To compare the two in any negative or even equal way slanted towards Joey B is asinine.

(07-15-2021, 12:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You're comparing performances of a veteran QB who, for the majority of his career, had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and a veteran HC to Joe Burrow who, as a rookie, didn't even get an offseason program and had one of the worst rosters in the NFL.

Uh, no.  All we have to compare so far is rookie seasons.

Andy Dalton rookie season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry.  Roster was considered on of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Green, Jerome Simpson, and Andre Caldwell (37 rec, 8.6 avg).  He finished 20th in passer rating.  Dalton had 4 games where he led a come from behind game-winning drive in the 4th quarter.

Joe Burrow rookies season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry. Roster was considered one of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Boyd, Higgins, and Green (47 rec, 11.1 avg).  He finished 24th in passer rating.  Burrow had zero games with a 4th quarter come from behind game-winning drive.

Dalton has a better receiving threat at TE, but Burrow had better receiving threats at RB.  

The league average passer rating was 9.3 points higher in 2020 (93.6) than 2011 (84.3).  Burrows passer rating (89.8) was 9.4 points higher than Dalton's in 2011 (80.4),

Dalton had 5 fumbles in 16 games.  Burrow had 9 in just 10 games.

Remember when the argument was that "great QBs make the players around them better.  They don't need talent around them to win."?  Why did that apply to Dalton, but not Burrow?

(07-15-2021, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, no.  All we have to compare so far is rookie seasons.

Andy Dalton rookie season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry.  Roster was considered on of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Green, Jerome Simpson, and Andre Caldwell (37 rec, 8.6 avg).  He finished 20th in passer rating.  Dalton had 4 games where he led a come from behind game-winning drive in the 4th quarter.

Joe Burrow rookies season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry. Roster was considered one of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Boyd, Higgins, and Green (47 rec, 11.1 avg).  He finished 24th in passer rating.  Burrow had zero games with a 4th quarter come from behind game-winning drive.

Dalton has a better receiving threat at TE, but Burrow had better receiving threats at RB.  

The league average passer rating was 9.3 points higher in 2020 (93.6) than 2011 (84.3).  Burrows passer rating (89.8) was 9.4 points higher than Dalton's in 2011 (80.4),

Dalton had 5 fumbles in 16 games.  Burrow had 9 in just 10 games.

Remember when the argument was that "great QBs make the players around them better.  They don't need talent around them to win."?  Why did that apply to Dalton, but not Burrow?

I'm coming into this late, I honestly didn't read everything written prior to this.  But I largely agree with you here.  I just want to point out a couple of things that could be useful to the debate...

1.) Andy Dalton had Marvin Lewis as a head coach, and Jay Gruden as an OC.

2.) Joe Burrow had Zac Taylor as a head coach, and Zac Taylor/Callahan as an OC.

I don't think we can discount just how poor of a hand here Burrow was dealt in comparison to Dalton.  Burrow is currently saddled with a historically bad Head Coach, and one of the worst OC's in the league.  And we're not even getting to Zimmer vs. Anarumo, and the effect a decent defense can have on offensive production.

Who knows what type of numbers Joe Burrow would have put up with coaches that are actually competent and qualified for their jobs?

(07-15-2021, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, no.  All we have to compare so far is rookie seasons.

Andy Dalton rookie season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry.  Roster was considered on of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Green, Jerome Simpson, and Andre Caldwell (37 rec, 8.6 avg).  He finished 20th in passer rating.  Dalton had 4 games where he led a come from behind game-winning drive in the 4th quarter.

Joe Burrow rookies season Bengals rushing offense ranked 27th in yards per carry. Roster was considered one of the worst in the league.  His top 3 WRs were Boyd, Higgins, and Green (47 rec, 11.1 avg).  He finished 24th in passer rating.  Burrow had zero games with a 4th quarter come from behind game-winning drive.

Dalton has a better receiving threat at TE, but Burrow had better receiving threats at RB.  

The league average passer rating was 9.3 points higher in 2020 (93.6) than 2011 (84.3).  Burrows passer rating (89.8) was 9.4 points higher than Dalton's in 2011 (80.4),

Dalton had 5 fumbles in 16 games.  Burrow had 9 in just 10 games.

Remember when the argument was that "great QBs make the players around them better.  They don't need talent around them to win."?  Why did that apply to Dalton, but not Burrow?

Because no one said that about Andy Dalton in year 1 or 2...... Years 3+ YES.

Again, context escapes you and you're looking at basic stats in a vacuum.

(07-15-2021, 07:14 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm coming into this late, I honestly didn't read everything written prior to this. 

Here is what you have missed.

I claimed that Burrow was not very efficient last yea.  Pdub got all defensive and claimed I was just bashing Burrow because I loved Andy Dalton.  He then tried to defend Burrow's poor numbers with every excuse he claimed did not matter when Dalton was here.

I think Burrow has more potential than Dalton and should be a better QB, I just never fell for all the stupid stuff like "Burrow doesn't need an O-line because he is not a statue like Dalton" or "Burrow does not need great WRs because he can 'throw them open' " or "Burrow will fix all our problems by holding players accountable" or "Burrow will lead us to victory with his swagger".

(07-15-2021, 11:39 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Because no one said that about Andy Dalton in year 1 or 2...... Years 3+ YES.

Again, context escapes you and you're looking at basic stats in a vacuum.

The only "context" we have right now is comparing the rookie seasons of both players.

Burrow may very well have a better career than Dalton, but right now his future is just conjecture.

(07-16-2021, 08:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The only "context" we have right now is comparing the rookie seasons of both players.

Burrow may very well have a better career than Dalton, but right now his future is just conjecture.

CONTEXT

Definition

1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed
   

Phrase: IN A VACUUM

Definition

1. (of an activity or a problem to be considered) isolated from the context normal to it and in which it can best be understood or assessed.
   

^ Due to your lack of understanding these two things and how to apply them to analyzing football, don't quit your day job as a "lawyer" any time soon.

In all seriousness, there are circumstances vastly differentiating what Dalton went through and what Burrow went through as a rookie. In relation to this conversation between you and I, it has morphed into a rookie year debate... only (and I will bold this, because it's important to understand how we got here) NEITHER WHAT YOU ORIGINALLY REPLIED TO ME WITH NOR WHAT I REPLIED TO YOU WITH WAS ABOUT DALTON'S ROOKIE YEAR. YOU GAVE A STAT ABOUT THE COLTS FROM A SEASON AFTER DALTON'S ROOKIE YEAR (TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO BURROW) IN RESPONSE TO ME AND I RESPONDED TO THAT DISCUSSING VETERAN QB EXPECTATIONS VS ROOKIE.... IT REFUTED YOUR ORIGINAL POINT, WHICH MADE NO SENSE... SO YOU MOVED THE GOALINE OFF TO THIS NONSENSICAL DISCUSSION INSTEAD IN SOME SORT OF ATTEMPT TO FIND YOURSELF SOME SLIVER OF "RIGHT".


^ Which STILLL doesn't hold water due to the two definitions I provided you above - the 3rd time I have mentioned CONTEXT & VACUUM analysis. To review anything like this and not look at circumstances around the entire season, game by game, a simpleton's approach.... WHICH IS EXACTLY HOW YOU ROLL... Given the fact that you (typical Fred) LAZILY looked at AJ Green's SEASONAL stats and applied them to Burrow when Burrow only played 10 of those games and Green played 16. Again... you lack CONTEXT.

(07-15-2021, 11:04 AM)PDub80 Wrote: 2012
2013
2014
2015

^ All excellent rosters. 13, 14, 15 had great players entering their prime years on both offense & defense. (3rd, 4th, 5th year guys who ended up being absolute monsters.... And an established coaching staff by then. Both Coordinators, Jackson, Zimmer, & Gruden, went on to be HCs. Jackson for a 2nd time. And, say what you will about Jackson and Gruden going to dysfunctional organizations, they are both respected coordonators in the NFL.

So, Dalton had both outstanding rosters AND excellent coaches behind him. Burrow has a 2nd year staff, a roster in complete rebuild mode, and COVID... and people want to try and compare and say they were similar performing? One guy (AD) ended up being on a luxury cruise liner with an experienced captain and staff while the other (Burrow) was given a kayak and half a map.

- I am a fair person. The 2016 roster was gross. Especially when it came to skill position players... look at WR in 2016. When you factor in the injuries it was particularly brutal. However, at that stage in his career... season 6... I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the franchise QB to "float boats" (so to speak) by raising people up to their best through his play. In 2016 the O line was certainly better the Burrow had last year. No question. Burrow had better weapons as a rookie for sure... although AJ Green being out there playing as a main target actually somehow HURT the Bengals, IMO.

How long do you think NFL windows stay open? This article on that topic  is fascinating https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nfl/2020/8/26/21402162/nfl-title-windows-chiefs-ravens-buccaneers

The Bengals window looked to be about 4 seasons with an amazing roster and so-so QB. The article draws and connects dots showing that great QB play typically showed a much larger window for winning a super bowl. The Bengals 4 year window kind of lets us see where AD was in terms of QB play vs the roster around him. As the roster talent dwindled after the 2015 season, the Bengals collectively fell out of the window as it slammed shut.

Thus, I rest my my case that AD had excellent rosters coupled with excellent coaching... and then when those things went away, so did the Bengals opportunity to win. AD wasnt very good AS A VETERAN, which was the point I was making to Fred's... which lacked context.

Joey B had a rebuilding roster... ravaged by injuries.... and a 2nd year coach trying to learn on the job... along w no offseason and COVID crap to deal with.

^ To compare the two in any negative or even equal way slanted towards Joey B is asinine.

I dont see this franchise turly recovering until it has good coaches again... And another few years wont make ZT or BC good coaches.

(07-15-2021, 07:14 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I'm coming into this late, I honestly didn't read everything written prior to this.  

(07-16-2021, 08:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is what you have missed.

I claimed that Burrow was not very efficient last yea.  Pdub got all defensive and claimed I was just bashing Burrow because I loved Andy Dalton.  He then tried to defend Burrow's poor numbers with every excuse he claimed did not matter when Dalton was here.

I think Burrow has more potential than Dalton and should be a better QB, I just never fell for all the stupid stuff like "Burrow doesn't need an O-line because he is not a statue like Dalton" or "Burrow does not need great WRs because he can 'throw them open' " or "Burrow will fix all our problems by holding players accountable" or "Burrow will lead us to victory with his swagger".

This isn't entirely accurate. We were discussing Burrow's preseason snaps and if they were needed and I said Burrow played well... Fred disputed that with a passer rating stat... which I disputed was an incredibly simplistic view (painfully so, actually) and explained why.

THAT is how we got here. The rest is Fred just saying things or trying to change the conversation.

(07-15-2021, 08:45 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: To me the preseason is just another practice, only against another team.  Teams don't go full speed

Really?  Tell that to the guys competing for a starting spot or a position on the roster.

(07-16-2021, 10:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: This isn't entirely accurate. We were discussing Burrow's preseason snaps and if they were needed and I said Burrow played well... Fred disputed that with a passer rating stat... which I disputed was an incredibly simplistic view (painfully so, actually) and explained why.

And I pointed out that the excuses you are trying to use now directly contradict the comments you were making this time last year about how Burrow did not need a good o-line because he is "not a statue" and he did not need great WRs because he could "throw them open".

Then for some strange reason out of the blue you brought up Andy Dalton.

(07-16-2021, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I pointed out that the excuses you are trying to use now directly contradict the comments you were making this time last year about how Burrow did not need a good o-line because he is "not a statue" and he did not need great WRs because he could "throw them open".

Then for some strange reason out of the blue you brought up Andy Dalton.

I love me some off season narratives, but my favorite was whomever said Burrow's death stare was going to scare the dropsies outta John Ross. 

I really wanted to see that one happen. 

(07-16-2021, 10:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I pointed out that the excuses you are trying to use now directly contradict the comments you were making this time last year about how Burrow did not need a good o-line because he is "not a statue" and he did not need great WRs because he could "throw them open".

Then for some strange reason out of the blue you brought up Andy Dalton.

The things I am pointing out are not excuses. You and I are just different humans. You view the this stuff through a global/macro, black & white vacuum. I prefer to put things under a microscope to see the grey area and analyze the circumstances/context to understand cause & effect. 

Here's an example...

Macro-view person says:
"Andy Dalton threw for 3398 yards as a rookie and Joe Burrow threw for 2,688 yards as a rookie".

The above is factual and true.... However, it requires the least amount of brain power and intellect as far as actually understanding a subject goes.

Context person says:
"Andy Dalton threw for 3398 yards as a rookie and started/played in 16 games and . Joe Burrow threw for 2,688 yards as a rookie, but only started/played in 10 games due to a season ending injury". 

The above is also factually true, but also requires critical thinking skills and the ability to draw lines between cause & effect, which leads to more analyzation of the events surrounding the end result between the two players.

BTW: Joe Burrow did throw guys open and did an outstanding job scrambling. I know you don't watch the games, but feel free to youtube some clips. If you provide a link to the thread and post number showing me when I said those exact things about the offensive line, I would love to read through the thread to better understand the CONTEXT from which I said this.

(07-16-2021, 11:22 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I love me some off season narratives, but my favorite was whomever said Burrow's death stare was going to scare the dropsies outta John Ross. 

I really wanted to see that one happen. 

The death stare thing (or whatever) was hilarious, but that is not what we are discussing. LOL  Hyperbole is one thing... actually looking at real life circumstances and analyzing them is another.