(07-15-2021, 12:31 PM)kevin Wrote: Well known weakness. Do Bengals have best Offensive Line in AFC North ?  That is a NO

A considered strength.  Do Bengals have best Running Back or Running Backs in AFC North ? Good chance, NO

Do Bengals have best Quarterback in AFC North ?  At this point, NO.

Do Bengals have best Defense in AFC North ?  That is a huge NO

Do Bengals have best TE and WR's in AFC North ?  Yes, they could have, but they have to prove it on the field.

Do Bengals have best Coaches in AFC North ?  So far, that is a NO

Do Bengals have best Front Office Ownership in AFC North ?  No play-off wins since Paul Brown died screams NO

So where are the Bengals in AFC North ?  In the early stages of a Complete Rebuild of NEW DEY

A complete rebuild of last years of Marvin Lewis and Semi-GM Tobin who also shares the blame

Last Place Bengals have not been competitive since 2015.

Now how do I rate the Fans. Pretty good considering the 30 year no play-off wins, the awful 1990's into early 2000's. and the awful last 5 or 6 seasons. Ownership is Lucky they still have Fans.  So I rate The Fans still here as pretty darn good.

Now, Can This Team Get Better ?    In the end it depends on how much Ownership cares.  If Ownership doesn't care, if they are content to make money off a last place team, then NO.  However, if that is their real attitude, they should remove their Father and Grandfathers name from the Stadium.  The name Paul Brown should not be connected to Losing or Content With Losing.  The fact that Paul Brown Stadium has NEVER had a team win a play-off game is an insult to the name Paul Brown.  If his children and grandchildren don't see how much this is an insult to the legacy of Paul Brown, then they are hopeless.  If they are going to call it Paul Brown Stadium, after the best coach in Ohio football history, then either focus on winning, or take his name off the stadium. Paul Brown should not be a name used by a team that doesn't care about winning.

To Bengals Ownership, I say get with it or sell the team.  The NFL is set up for parity. That you have gone 30 years with no play-off wins and also in that time led the NFL in 3 or 4 win only seasons is an insult to Paul Brown who you inherited the team from. The Fans deserve better.  Ownership, get with it or sell the team, Enough is Enough.  One real test is if you do not resign Bates this summer. If you can't resign one of the best young Defensive players in the NFL, then you don't intend to keep good draft picks or rebuild this team into a winner, and so just sell the team to someone who DOES want to WIN.

One thing I will say in relation to all your NO answers:  That is based almost entirely on last season.  Guess what?  The Browns don't get to start the season ahead of anyone.  Their RBs, and well-respected offensive line (and coaches) don't get to start the season with a four game lead.  Sure, they put it together and had a heck of a run last year.  They also were largely very healthy and they won a total of three games (four if you count the postseason, but remember, Ryan Finley beat that team) against teams that were above .500 (Indy, Tennessee, and pitt) and every single one of those wins were at home.  

Statistically, they had a dominant rushing attack.  That helped Mayfield tremendously with play-action and a ton of bootlegs, waggles, etc.  I think teams will catch on and set up to stuff their rushing attack and force Mayfield to try and beat them from the pocket.  Not saying he can't do that, but I can see him struggling this season.  I just hope they beat pitt twice.  

As far as Bengals ownership goes, that is a tired and old way of thinking.   Yes, Mike Brown is notoriously frugal.  The lack of big towels for the players in the locker room was insulting.  So much so that Esiason bought towels for the team himself.  But that was (over) 20 years ago.  Mike Brown has handed the reigns over to Troy, Katie, and Duke.  Say what you will about some of their recent drafts, but if you go back and look at the reviews on most of the players and "maneuvers" they made (swapping picks and a player trade for Cordy Glenn, for example) we were all behind them at that time, but they didn't pan out.  Some was likely coaching, some was culture, etc.  

Look at what they are doing now with Elizabeth Blackburn.  She is KILLING the social media side of things and has quite a following.  She took a flat, uninteresting unit and gave it life.  I believe she was also one of the forces behind the upcoming Ring of Honor.  

The Bengals also did what we all asked:  Move on from Marv and get a younger, more innovative coach.  It sure hasn't started well, but look at the moves they have done in free agency and the draft to help him build his team.  No, they have not been successful, but I don't see an organization that doesn't care and doesn't want to win.  I see an organization that was really close with Dalton for five years, but now has Burrow and a young talented squad being built around him.  

I get your displeasure, but I choose to see what they are now and not what they were 20 years ago.  This season could go a long way to bringing them some love again.   

(07-15-2021, 11:37 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm with the talking head, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Big Jen isn't riding the pine before this season is over.

I'm not convinced Baker Hayfield is all of that either.

I feel like we have to be impressed with Mayfield since we're convinced he was going to be an instant bust and the Browns were a franchise totally incapable of ever winning more than 6 games.  

The Browns went from a QB destroying franchise to carrying Mayfield to 11 wins and a road playoff win overnight.  Reboot indeedy!

Again it's off season hyperbole, but same old Browns was at least wrong for 1 year.  The bar, so low. 

(07-16-2021, 09:06 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: Don't be afraid to tell it like it is...  you don't need the "At this point".

It is simply a NO. Let's face it, all of your no's are a no at this point.

I hope I got my point across. 

Can't speak for everyone but I disagree. 

It's a yes that I think he is the best in the division. 

Only would be a no or maybe because he hasn't gave us a good season YET, but we all know that's coming.  If you don't I'm not sure what to tell you. 

(07-16-2021, 09:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: As far as Bengals ownership goes, that is a tired and old way of thinking.   Yes, Mike Brown is notoriously frugal.  The lack of big towels for the players in the locker room was insulting.  So much so that Esiason bought towels for the team himself.  But that was (over) 20 years ago.  Mike Brown has handed the reigns over to Troy, Katie, and Duke.  Say what you will about some of their recent drafts, but if you go back and look at the reviews on most of the players and "maneuvers" they made (swapping picks and a player trade for Cordy Glenn, for example) we were all behind them at that time, but they didn't pan out.  Some was likely coaching, some was culture, etc.  

Look at what they are doing now with Elizabeth Blackburn.  She is KILLING the social media side of things and has quite a following.  She took a flat, uninteresting unit and gave it life.  I believe she was also one of the forces behind the upcoming Ring of Honor.  

The Bengals also did what we all asked:  Move on from Marv and get a younger, more innovative coach.  It sure hasn't started well, but look at the moves they have done in free agency and the draft to help him build his team.  No, they have not been successful, but I don't see an organization that doesn't care and doesn't want to win.  I see an organization that was really close with Dalton for five years, but now has Burrow and a young talented squad being built around him.  

I get your displeasure, but I choose to see what they are now and not what they were 20 years ago.  This season could go a long way to bringing them some love again.   

I get the excitement for what they are trying to do off the field, but in the end none of that matters if the team isn't winning and winning in the playoffs.

Can put all the lipstick on the pig that you want, but it is still a pig. And while Elizabeth is certainly trying to connect with fans, there is still a real lack of trusted, knowledgeable football personal in the front office. 

Win. It's really that simple. Win games, win in the playoffs, get the laughing stock label off the team, then all this "New Dey" stuff has meaning. 

(07-17-2021, 06:13 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I get the excitement for what they are trying to do off the field, but in the end none of that matters if the team isn't winning and winning in the playoffs.

Can put all the lipstick on the pig that you want, but it is still a pig. And while Elizabeth is certainly trying to connect with fans, there is still a real lack of trusted, knowledgeable football personal in the front office. 

Win. It's really that simple. Win games, win in the playoffs, get the laughing stock label off the team, then all this "New Dey" stuff has meaning. 

Remember, this was about ownership.  Not the players, right?  The ownership put together a championship-caliber squad from 2011-2015.  I will argue all day long that the 2015 team could have won the Championship, and most likely would have if Dalton had not been injured.  That wasn't that long ago.  Then, there were some drafts that didn't cut the mustard, at all.  They whiffed big time on almost all the offensive line picks that were designed to replace aging veterans.  That led us to where we stand today.  The best talent on the team aged and production significantly declined as the lines were not properly staffed with talent.  

I won't bother to spend a lot of key strokes on trying to show how the ownership has worked on turning the roster (including coaches) through both the draft and free agency because you have already seen it and understand it.  The result on the field has not materialized (yet) and I get the frustration falling back on ownership.  

However, this tired "they don't care" and "they are cheap" narrative is just not fair nor accurate.  They have built top-flight rosters in the recent past and will do it again now.  From there, it is up to the PLAYERS and COACHES to execute it on the field.  

(07-17-2021, 09:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Remember, this was about ownership.  Not the players, right?  The ownership put together a championship-caliber squad from 2011-2015.  I will argue all day long that the 2015 team could have won the Championship, and most likely would have if Dalton had not been injured.  That wasn't that long ago.  Then, there were some drafts that didn't cut the mustard, at all.  They whiffed big time on almost all the offensive line picks that were designed to replace aging veterans.  That led us to where we stand today.  The best talent on the team aged and production significantly declined as the lines were not properly staffed with talent.  

I won't bother to spend a lot of key strokes on trying to show how the ownership has worked on turning the roster (including coaches) through both the draft and free agency because you have already seen it and understand it.  The result on the field has not materialized (yet) and I get the frustration falling back on ownership.  

However, this tired "they don't care" and "they are cheap" narrative is just not fair nor accurate.  They have built top-flight rosters in the recent past and will do it again now.  From there, it is up to the PLAYERS and COACHES to execute it on the field.  

All I can say is "Well Said".

(07-15-2021, 10:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Statements like this are hard to take seriously. Anyone that wouldn’t take Mahomes over Burrow either doesn’t watch football outside of the Bengals, or has overdosed on orange koolaid. I mean, there’s being a homer, and then there’s just being ridiculous…

After thinking about it a little bit I would not immediately take Mahomes over Burrow. I think they are comparable Quarterbacks. One is getting paid and the other is still on Rookie QB Salary. I will take Burrow and his rookie salary.

I would take Mahomes current situation over Burrows. I watched last years Super Bowl and Mahomes looked average at best.
Had the Bengals drafted Mahomes I doubt he would have led us to a Super Bowl by now. He is in a great situation in Kansas City. If Joe Burrow could line up this year for the KC Chiefs I would be putting my money on them to win Super Bowl. 

All I'm going to say is... this is the most excited I've been for Bengals football to start in a long time. This is the first major rebuild in a long time + add in the talents of Burrow and our WR core.

(07-17-2021, 10:54 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: After thinking about it a little bit I would not immediately take Mahomes over Burrow. I think they are comparable Quarterbacks. One is getting paid and the other is still on Rookie QB Salary. I will take Burrow and his rookie salary.

I would take Mahomes current situation over Burrows. I watched last years Super Bowl and Mahomes looked average at best.
Had the Bengals drafted Mahomes I doubt he would have led us to a Super Bowl by now. He is in a great situation in Kansas City. If Joe Burrow could line up this year for the KC Chiefs I would be putting my money on them to win Super Bowl.

I don’t disagree with either of the bold, but I still take Mahomes over Burrow. After Rodgers, Mahomes is the most physically gifted QB I’ve seen in my lifetime. He does things 99% of QB’s just can’t do.

The Bengals have the talent to compete in the AFC North but as we know to you HAVE to stop the run in this division. (Big reason why I was a fan of the 2021 draft class.)

(07-17-2021, 12:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t disagree with either of the bold, but I still take Mahomes over Burrow. After Rodgers, Mahomes is the most physically gifted QB I’ve seen in my lifetime. He does things 99% of QB’s just can’t do.

Steve Young has to be on my all lifetime list. 

He could have been drafted as a RB in NFL even if he was not able to throw at all. He ran tougher than people can even remember.

Plus had pin point accuracy, so much that he ran a legend out of town. Hardly ever recall WR's ever breaking stride to catch his throws. 

Nobody ever agrees, but he was the best QB I ever watched play the game. 

Yet hated the 49ers almost as much as the steelers. 

(07-17-2021, 04:38 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Steve Young has to be on my all lifetime list. 

He could have been drafted as a RB in NFL even if he was not able to throw at all. He ran tougher than people can even even remember.

Plus had pin point accuracy, so much that he ran a legend out of town. Hardly ever recall WR's ever breaking stride to catch his throws. 

Nobody ever agrees, but he was the best QB I ever watched play the game. 

Yet hated the 49ers almost as much as the steelers. 

He was a little before my time (at least as far as closely following football). I’ve always heard Elway was way up there physically, too.

(07-17-2021, 04:38 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Steve Young has to be on my all lifetime list. 

He could have been drafted as a RB in NFL even if he was not able to throw at all. He ran tougher than people can even even remember.

Plus had pin point accuracy, so much that he ran a legend out of town. Hardly ever recall WR's ever breaking stride to catch his throws. 

Nobody ever agrees, but he was the best QB I ever watched play the game. 

Yet hated the 49ers almost as much as the steelers. 

Another guy that spurned the Bengals, for the big bucks of the USFL. 

If three years is the early stages of rebuilding (And this is the 3rd year!) then it's going to take several more years for this front office to finish the job. Except by that time many of their latest additions will be playing elsewhere. Just can't take years and years to rebuild a team in the NFL. It's just not set up that way.

There was far more right about Marvin's tenure than was wrong with it. He had the best record of any head coach under Mike Brown's ownership, by miles and miles. Boy Wonder, on the other hand, can barely hold Dave Shula's clipboard.

(07-17-2021, 09:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: If three years is the early stages of rebuilding (And this is the 3rd year!) then it's going to take several more years for this front office to finish the job. Except by that time many of their latest additions will be playing elsewhere. Just can't take years and years to rebuild a team in the NFL. It's just not set up that way.

There was far more right about Marvin's tenure than was wrong with it. He had the best record of any head coach under Mike Brown's ownership, by miles and miles. Boy Wonder, on the other hand, can barely hold Dave Shula's clipboard.

2021 offseason was the second year of the rebuild not the third. A rebuild refers to a teams roster and has absolutely zero to do with the coaching staff.

(07-17-2021, 10:54 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: After thinking about it a little bit I would not immediately take Mahomes over Burrow. I think they are comparable Quarterbacks. One is getting paid and the other is still on Rookie QB Salary. I will take Burrow and his rookie salary.

I would take Mahomes current situation over Burrows. I watched last years Super Bowl and Mahomes looked average at best.
Had the Bengals drafted Mahomes I doubt he would have led us to a Super Bowl by now. He is in a great situation in Kansas City. If Joe Burrow could line up this year for the KC Chiefs I would be putting my money on them to win Super Bowl. 

This is a really shocking opinion to me. There really isn’t a scenario where I wouldn’t take Mahomes over Burrow. Mahomes is just a year older and already has a SB and a league MVP. He is a literal wizard on the football field. He is significantly better than Burrow. To bet on Burrow being able to provide that level of play during his rookie contract after a significant injury is a hefty bet to make.

To be honest, I probably wouldn’t take Burrow over Lamar Jackson, either. I am thrilled with how well Burrow played last season, given the circumstances, but I’m not ready to crown him as the next generational talent. I need to see more than nine games of him before I start taking him over league MVPs and SB winners.

(07-17-2021, 05:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Another guy that spurned the Bengals, for the big bucks of the USFL. 

Yep but can't blame anybody for taking the cabbage the USFL was handing out.

Fortunate for me though that Howard Schnellenberger left the Hurricanes for that bundle of money and is the only way he ended up coaching the Louisville Cardinals. Almost certain Louisville football would have folded or been completely irrelevant without this chain of events happening.

If not for this you would not get to enjoy my sig.

(07-17-2021, 09:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: There was far more right about Marvin's tenure than was wrong with it. He had the best record of any head coach under Mike Brown's ownership, by miles and miles. Boy Wonder, on the other hand, can barely hold Dave Shula's clipboard.

This is completely true. Marvin Lewis took the Bengals from the laughingstock of the league to immediate respectability with his 27-21 record over his first three years plus a playoff appearance in his third season. Yes, I know we needed to move on from Marvin after 2018 but in his early years in Cincinnati along with the impressive run from 2009-2015 Marvin was the best the Bengals had since Sam Wyche.

While I want to be super optimistic about 2021 I am having a hard time doing so. What I see is a very talented roster being taught by not so talented coaches. Forget the horrible scheme for a minute; the fundamentals aren’t even there. The Bengals don’t even block and tackle correctly and without those skills in place everything else falls apart.

Hiring a quarterback coach to be the head coach should have raised more red flags than a North Korean military parade.

(07-18-2021, 08:08 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: This is completely true.  Marvin Lewis took the Bengals from the laughingstock of the league to immediate respectability with his 27-21 record over his first three years plus a playoff appearance in his third season.  Yes, I know we needed to move on from Marvin after 2018 but in his early years in Cincinnati along with the impressive run from 2009-2015 Marvin was the best the Bengals had since Sam Wyche.  

While I want to be super optimistic about 2021 I am having a hard time doing so. What I see is a very talented roster being taught by not so talented coaches. Forget the horrible scheme for a minute; the fundamentals aren’t even there.  The Bengals don’t even block and tackle correctly and without those skills in place everything else falls apart.  

Hiring a quarterback coach to be the head coach should have raised more red flags than a North Korean military parade.

I wouldn't say that. Frank Pollack and Ben Martin are very good Offensive line coaches. Robert Livingston is an outstanding Defensive Secondary coach. Darrin Simmons is one of the best Special Teams coaches in the league. Pitcher is a good QB coach. Don't really know much about how Hobby will do with the D-line, and Golden had pretty much all rookie Linebackers last year. People might not like the OC and DC, but we have some pretty decent position coaches teaching these guys.  

(07-18-2021, 12:24 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is a really shocking opinion to me. There really isn’t a scenario where I wouldn’t take Mahomes over Burrow. Mahomes is just a year older and already has a SB and a league MVP. He is a literal wizard on the football field. He is significantly better than Burrow. To bet on Burrow being able to provide that level of play during his rookie contract after a significant injury is a hefty bet to make.

To be honest, I probably wouldn’t take Burrow over Lamar Jackson, either. I am thrilled with how well Burrow played last season, given the circumstances, but I’m not ready to crown him as the next generational talent. I need to see more than nine games of him before I start taking him over league MVPs and SB winners.

So do you think Mahomes is good enough to make a below average team contenders?

I think he is a top 10 QB who lucked into a great situation with very talented wide receivers and probably the greatest tight end to ever play the game. He had an above average Off line until they were injured and he had Andy Reid as his head coach. Once his line was weak he no longer looked like an MVP QB.

His 2021 Super Bowl stats:
1 Fumble
26-49 passing for 270 yards with 2 Interceptions
Ran the 5 times for 33 yards
Sacked 3 times
QBR Rating of 49.9