(08-26-2021, 11:55 AM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I’m not sure, but I’m seeing more vaccinated or at the very least the same amount of people in the NFL testing positive than unvaccinated. Not anti-Vaxxer by any means, but seems pretty interesting to me.

Agree

(08-26-2021, 11:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I very highly recommend folks listen to what the overwhelming majority of the scientific community say. Its worth saving a life. 

I agree with this but sadly I think most people only hear what a very small percentage of the scientific community really feels, and who knows what guys like Fauci really feel about it. He has been like a mock draft "expert" through this. Every day its another mock draft that goes one way or the other but hardly consistent. Truth is, there have been a lot of scientist, doctors and virologist among them who completely go against what government and mainstream media is saying about the virus, the vaccines and natural immunity (which doesnt make billions of dollars for the pharm companies of course). But for some reason as soon as they speak out, they are labeled as right wing or something like that and discredited by the media, to the point where a lot of them are afraid to speak out to avoid the drama and threat to their careers. For all we know, natural immunity is far better than the vaccine. Do we really know right now? 

Also keep in mind, there are about 251,000 deaths on average every year in the US caused by medical error. When will they put that on the news lol? I know a couple decades ago the AP did a story about it, but things have changed big time in the media since then. 

(08-26-2021, 11:50 PM)jason Wrote: I admire how you've kept up the good fight over the past year and some change. It seems to me it would be exhausting to keep speaking (from a place of actual knowledge and dedication) to people who would've called you a witch in the 17th century.

“Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.” - Henry V

Try and try and try again. Even if it means sacrificing your own life in the attempt. But, never, ever, give up.

Especially now when people are dying unnecessary. I remember one young women who thought she had bronchitis. I found a mass in her thyroid. I tried to reassure her, but also make her understand the importance of having her doctor evaluate it. A year or two later, I see her again. “I don’t know if you remember me, but I wanted to thank you.” The mass was cancer. It was detected early, treated, and she made a full recovery. That’s one husband that didn’t lose a wife. Two sons that didn’t have to grow up without a mom. And two parents that didn’t lose a daughter. That provides me meaning, purpose, and fulfillment.

I know in our little part in our little slice of the pie we have provided during this pandemic has also saved lives. I know some think 600K+ lives lost isn’t that big of a deal to them. But, every one of those numbers has a story. Every one of those numbers has a family affected by their loss. If I could spare them that, I would.

I understand their are some whose minds can’t be changed despite any information I provide. But, you never know who is listening/reading or what words might make a difference. But, if the information can make a positive change in just one person’s life, it’s worth the effort.

So I’ll keep chugging and chugging and chugging along like the Little Engine that Could.

But, yeah, I’m exhausted and on the verge of my second case of burnout since the start of the pandemic. And my doctor already has my Wellbutrin maxed out. Dosage can’t go any higher. Unlike the stress.

(08-27-2021, 11:04 AM)bengaloo Wrote: But for some reason as soon as they speak out, they are labeled as right wing or something like that and discredited by the media, to the point where a lot of them are afraid to speak out to avoid the drama and threat to their careers. 

in 2020 the "rightwing" controlled the presidency, the Senate and the #1 most popular news network in the entire country.  How the hell would it be a "threat to their career" to be on that side?

(08-27-2021, 11:04 AM)bengaloo Wrote: I agree with this but sadly I think most people only hear what a very small percentage of the scientific community really feels, and who knows what guys like Fauci really feel about it. He has been like a mock draft "expert" through this. Every day its another mock draft that goes one way or the other but hardly consistent. Truth is, there have been a lot of scientist, doctors and virologist among them who completely go against what government and mainstream media is saying about the virus, the vaccines and natural immunity (which doesnt make billions of dollars for the pharm companies of course). But for some reason as soon as they speak out, they are labeled as right wing or something like that and discredited by the media, to the point where a lot of them are afraid to speak out to avoid the drama and threat to their careers. For all we know, natural immunity is far better than the vaccine. Do we really know right now? 

Also keep in mind, there are about 251,000 deaths on average every year in the US caused by medical error. When will they put that on the news lol? I know a couple decades ago the AP did a story about it, but things have changed big time in the media since then. 

I don’t like to discuss the politics of the pandemic because it is another barrier to communication. For example, I was recommending an antibody infusion to a patient who was at high risk for severe Covid. “What’s that?” I explained it was a treatment President Trump received when he had Covid. That completely shut down the conversation. I had lost that patient at that point, but I learned from it.

Our government officials have stated we have 15 cases and it will soon be down to zero, it’s completely under control. When the CDC came out with an estimate of 250K deaths or more in the first year, our government officials denied it would ever get that high only later to say 200K deaths would be a good job. Our government officials without any medical credentials have pushed meds that are ineffective and have serious interactions based upon a single study in France that excluded the data for everyone that got worse during the trial. As of now, I’m unaware of a single medical organization that recommends the use of the meds they recommended. Matter of fact, they recommend against their use to treat Covid. And some political appointees have had to change their messaging because higher levels of government have forced them to do so. That’s definitely caused mixed messages and confusion, but based upon the political message elected officials wanted to send to the public so they would gain politically.

And then there are still those who don’t understand why you cover your mouth and nose while you’re sick and try to irresponsibly create doubt on confusion about simply wearing a mask.

And with almost any scientific debate there are disagreement or differences of opinion, but those don’t discredit the consensus. Like that Dr. Emmanuel in Texas who believes endometriosis is caused by demon seed or whatever nonsense she believes. The consensus of doctors don’t believe endometriosis is caused by demon seed. And just because someone believes endometriosis is caused by demon seed that’s not reason to doubt all the other doctors who believe differently. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But, let’s not pretend all opinions are created equal.

(08-27-2021, 11:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: “Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.” - Henry V

Try and try and try again. Even if it means sacrificing your own life in the attempt. But, never, ever, give up.

Especially now when people are dying unnecessary. I remember one young women who thought she had bronchitis. I found a mass in her thyroid. I tried to reassure her, but also make her understand the importance of having her doctor evaluate it. A year or two later, I see her again. “I don’t know if you remember me, but I wanted to thank you.” The mass was cancer. It was detected early, treated, and she made a full recovery. That’s one husband that didn’t lose a wife. Two sons that didn’t have to grow up without a mom. And two parents that didn’t lose a daughter. That provides me meaning, purpose, and fulfillment.

I know in our little part in our little slice of the pie we have provided during this pandemic has also saved lives. I know some think 600K+ lives lost isn’t that big of a deal to them. But, every one of those numbers has a story. Every one of those numbers has a family affected by their loss. If I could spare them that, I would.

I understand their are some whose minds can’t be changed despite any information I provide. But, you never know who is listening/reading or what words might make a difference. But, if the information can make a positive change in just one person’s life, it’s worth the effort.

So I’ll keep chugging and chugging and chugging along like the Little Engine that Could.

But, yeah, I’m exhausted and on the verge of my second case of burnout since the start of the pandemic. And my doctor already has my Wellbutrin maxed out. Dosage can’t go any higher. Unlike the stress.

Thanks for speaking out on this.  I think it's too important for sources like you to be quiet.  

Both my parents were hospitalities in December due to COVID and thankfully they recovered. 

However, COVID leaves scares behind.  Neither one of my parents have the lung capacity they used to prior to having COVID.  

I also believe its affected some of their cognitive (memory) functions as well.  Then again they could just be old lol

anyway, again thank you for speaking out.  I've valuable information. 

I bet Kirk Cousins is brushing his teeth with that horse dewormer paste in preparation for our week 1 game.

(08-27-2021, 12:15 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I bet Kirk Cousins is brushing his teeth with that horse dewormer paste in preparation for our week 1 game.

We had our fantasy draft at work today and a dude took Cousins. We all wished him good luck on taking a QB that will probably miss half his games.

(08-27-2021, 02:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We had our fantasy draft at work today and a dude took Cousins. We all wished him good luck on taking a QB that will probably miss half his games.

I know Cam Newton missing time and giving Mac Jones the opening to start is big news, too. 

(08-27-2021, 12:15 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I bet Kirk Cousins is brushing his teeth with that horse dewormer paste in preparation for our week 1 game.

Horse dewormer is for chumps.  Fish tank cleaner with a bleach chaser is what the OGs use.

(08-27-2021, 02:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We had our fantasy draft at work today and a dude took Cousins. We all wished him good luck on taking a QB that will probably miss half his games.

Can you imagine the locker room scene if an unvaccinated player causes a major spread leading to a forfeit.  That's automatic game check loss for the whole team IIRC.  Someone will be getting their ass kicked.

(08-27-2021, 05:26 PM)samhain Wrote: Can you imagine the locker room scene if an unvaccinated player causes a major spread leading to a forfeit.  That's automatic game check loss for the whole team IIRC.  Someone will be getting their ass kicked.

Meh, the sooner Kirk Cousins gets ostracized for being anti vaxx the sooner he and Josh Rosen can run against each other in the political forum. 

Skipped most of the thread and appreciate all the good people promoting the vaccine and rational ethical behavior. We also know where the majority of miss-information comes from on the internet and Facebook. We know one political party has made it about their followers identity by promoting it as a “freedom”. The same party is passing state laws prohibiting schools, government organizations and schools from mandating masks to save lives. Passing a law removing a business owners right to demand masks to keep themselves and co-workers safe is beyond hypocrisy.

One thing the last decade taught us and which has spawned entire new branches of research is about people’s social and political identity. For some, telling them that women are people, minorities should have equal rights and taking a vaccine is like telling a Bengals fan to switch allegiance to the Steelers. Won’t happen. Being a sports fan is a part of who they are and developing a desire to change that view is also to impossible.

There are many who don’t get the vaccine for other reasons from laziness to fear of needles or just nutters. Some is cultural. But there is a reason one party is 85% vaxxed and one is 50%. Their party leaders are telling them it’s okay.

People should read Lilliana Mason’s book on the subject or Ezra Klein.

And my last word is that anti-vaxxer’s really don’t understand freedom, rights, and confuse them with beliefs. Get vaxxed people. You’re going to get us all killed and football will be the last of your worries.

(08-27-2021, 02:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I know Cam Newton missing time and giving Mac Jones the opening to start is big news, too. 

Unvacianted QBs should have to follow social distancing rules. If a defender gets within 6 feet of you, you're down 

(08-29-2021, 04:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Unvacianted QBs should have to follow social distancing rules. If a defender gets within 6 feet of you, you're down 

The old Jim Chris Everett move, eh ?

(08-29-2021, 04:10 PM)yang Wrote: Skipped most of the thread and appreciate all the good people promoting the vaccine and rational ethical behavior.   We also know where the majority of miss-information comes from on the internet and Facebook.  We know one political party has made it about their followers identity by promoting it as a “freedom”.  The same party is passing state laws prohibiting schools, government organizations and schools from mandating masks to save lives.   Passing a law removing a business owners right to demand masks to keep themselves and co-workers safe is beyond hypocrisy.

One thing the last decade taught us and which has spawned entire new branches of research is about people’s social and political identity.   For some, telling them that women are people, minorities should have equal rights and taking a vaccine is like telling a Bengals fan to switch allegiance to the Steelers.    Won’t happen.  Being a sports fan is a part of who they are and developing a desire to change that view is also to impossible.  

There are many who don’t get the vaccine for other reasons from laziness to fear of needles or just nutters.   Some is cultural.  But there is a reason one party is 85% vaxxed and one is 50%.  Their party leaders are telling them it’s okay.  

People should read Lilliana Mason’s book on the subject or Ezra Klein.

And my last word is that anti-vaxxer’s really don’t understand freedom, rights, and confuse them with beliefs.   Get vaxxed people.  You’re going to get us all killed and football will be the last of your worries.

Way to make it political lol. I know a solid split amongst liberals and conservatives who dont want the vaccine for various reasons, as well as a couple muslims who dont want it for their personal reasons. The more educated people I know seem to think people with natural immunity have the best protection, and also know that iffy vaccines have a bigger chance of producing more variants than natural immunity. Problem is, natural immunity wont allow companies and their government and media pals make billions of dollars. Your post is divisive and sad. I thought "my body my choice" was a liberal thing btw? I was a hard core liberal most of my life, and not trusting the FDA (who approves cigs but wont approve melatonin as a viable sleep aid amongst other things) and the pharm industries was in fact a liberal issue for many years. The older hippy folks are natural medicine lovers, which is constantly rejected by the FDA and pharma industry despite real evidence of viability. Oh how times have changes lol! Modern liberals are more like statist dictators these days it seems. Finger pointers.

As many predicted, and now even Bloomberg is saying it. Natural immunity is better than the vaccines. This would be the first "pandemic" in history where surviving the sickness didnt give you long lasting natural immunity, including Spanish flu and Sars. People who survived Sars in 2013 still have natural immunity to it. Covid has over a 99% survival rate and we are accusing people of ridiculous things for not wanting an experimental vaccine that is now being proven to not be nearly as effective than natural immunity. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. A popular fella local to my area died from Covid yesterday. He was in his early 80's, and was vaccinated. All this will do is make more people not want the vaccine, based on the comments I read about him on Facebook. For the record he was a long time local Democrat politician. 

(08-30-2021, 02:08 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Way to make it political lol. I know a solid split amongst liberals and conservatives who dont want the vaccine for various reasons, as well as a couple muslims who dont want it for their personal reasons. The more educated people I know seem to think people with natural immunity have the best protection, and also know that iffy vaccines have a bigger chance of producing more variants than natural immunity. Problem is, natural immunity wont allow companies and their government and media pals make billions of dollars. Your post is divisive and sad. I thought "my body my choice" was a liberal thing btw? I was a hard core liberal most of my life, and not trusting the FDA (who approves cigs but wont approve melatonin as a viable sleep aid amongst other things) and the pharm industries was in fact a liberal issue for many years. The older hippy folks are natural medicine lovers, which is constantly rejected by the FDA and pharma industry despite real evidence of viability. Oh how times have changes lol! Modern liberals are more like statist dictators these days it seems. Finger pointers.

As many predicted, and now even Bloomberg is saying it. Natural immunity is better than the vaccines. This would be the first "pandemic" in history where surviving the sickness didnt give you long lasting natural immunity, including Spanish flu and Sars. People who survived Sars in 2013 still have natural immunity to it. Covid has over a 99% survival rate and we are accusing people of ridiculous things for not wanting an experimental vaccine that is now being proven to not be nearly as effective than natural immunity. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. A popular fella local to my area died from Covid yesterday. He was in his early 80's, and was vaccinated. All this will do is make more people not want the vaccine, based on the comments I read about him on Facebook. For the record he was a long time local Democrat politician. 

More misinformation from you in a continuous stream of misinformation.

You are either deceitfully or ignorantly trying to compare getting Covid a second time to getting Covid a first time.

In order to get the “natural” or acquired immunity one gets from contracting a disease, you have to first get the disease. Whereas, the acquired immunity you get from a vaccine prevents you from getting the disease the first time (not 100% of the time, but in accordance the vaccine’s efficacy.)

Also, from your article, “Giving a single shot of the vaccine to those who had been previously infected also appeared to boost their protection.” Which indicates getting vaccinated after recovering from Covid gives additional protection than recovering from the infection alone. This conclusion concurs with other studies. Something you have tried to cast doubt on previously, so I’m not surprised you didn’t mention it.

So I ask you which would you prefer, the “natural” immunity you get to a second case of rabies after your first case of rabies (which you won’t survive) or the acquired immunity to rabies from the vaccine so you don’t get your first (universally fatal) rabies infection?

The vast majority of “educated” people I know recommend getting a vaccine for a vaccine preventable disease rather than getting the disease.

Would you prefer getting meningitis or the meningitis vaccine to prevent meningitis? I’m just spit ballin’ here, but I think must people prefer not getting meningitis. “Educated” or otherwise.

And the FDA didn’t approve cigarettes. A ten second Google search could disprove that false claim.

(08-30-2021, 03:42 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: More misinformation from you in a continuous stream of misinformation.

You are either deceitfully or ignorantly trying to compare getting Covid a second time to getting Covid a first time.

In order to get the “natural” or acquired immunity one gets from contracting a disease, you have to first get the disease. Whereas, the acquired immunity you get from a vaccine prevents you from getting the disease the first time (not 100% of the time, but in accordance the vaccine’s efficacy.)

Also, from your article, “Giving a single shot of the vaccine to those who had been previously infected also appeared to boost their protection.” Which indicates getting vaccinated after recovering from Covid gives additional protection than recovering from the infection alone. This conclusion concurs with other studies. Something you have tried to cast doubt on previously, so I’m not surprised you didn’t mention it.

So I ask you which would you prefer, the “natural” immunity you get to a second case of rabies after your first case of rabies (which you won’t survive) or the acquired immunity to rabies from the vaccine so you don’t get your first (universally fatal) rabies infection?

The vast majority of “educated” people I know recommend getting a vaccine for a vaccine preventable disease rather than getting the disease.

Would you prefer getting meningitis or the meningitis vaccine to prevent meningitis? I’m just spit ballin’ here, but I think must people prefer not getting meningitis. “Educated” or otherwise.

And the FDA didn’t approve cigarettes. A ten second Google search could disprove that false claim.

I respect your opinion, but I very much disagree with your certainty about all this. Truth is, you have no idea just like the rest of us. You dont know if natural immunity is better than the vaccines. Evidence is beginning to suggest it and more and more people are reporting it all the time and as human beings we would be best served to keep an open mind in times like this. It is all still unfolding, so none of us know how it will turn out in the end, but right now, the popular narrative is once again starting to lose its steam as more raw data comes out proving it wrong and its only just beginning.   

(08-30-2021, 04:29 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I respect your opinion, but I very much disagree with your certainty about all this. Truth is, you have no idea just like the rest of us. You dont know if natural immunity is better than the vaccines. Evidence is beginning to suggest it and more and more people are reporting it all the time and as human beings we would be best served to keep an open mind in times like this. It is all still unfolding, so none of us know how it will turn out in the end, but right now, the popular narrative is once again starting to lose its steam as more raw data comes out proving it wrong and its only just beginning.   

I think he's like a doctor or something.  I'm not sure how open minded it is for you to be so sure you're on equal footing with someone who went to med school, at least in this area.

(08-30-2021, 04:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think he's like a doctor or something.  I'm not sure how open minded it is for you to be so sure you're on equal footing with someone who went to med school, at least in this area.

I know a lot of doctors who completely disagree with what he is saying. And here's the thing, they dont know for sure either, which is kind of my point. So just because someone is a doctor or nurse doesnt mean they are magical and can read the future or know everything there is to know about all things covid related or anything for that matter. Hence why I keep posting counter points to the popular narrative with real data to back it up, telling people we would be best served to keep an open mind. Pfizer's CEO went on CNBC and admitted the vaccine is only 39% effective against delta. Remember, 251,000 people per year die as a result of medical mishap carried out by doctors or nurses. They are not super human and I will not treat them as such. Time will tell about all of this stuff with vaccines, covid, death rates, etc. It's all still in the middle of unfolding, ya know? Which is why I think its a bit too early for the NFL to make such harsh punishments that are vaccine and mask related, back to the threads point. The science behind all of it is completely unsettled at this point.