First of all TE's are not as good of receivers as WRs.  Last year there were only 5 TEs with more than 700 receiving yards, but 48 wide receivers passed that mark.  Only 1 TE in the league had 30 receptions and and averaged over 14.0 per catch.  26 WRs did it.  So if you just want receiving production it is better to throw to a WR than a TE.

Teams still need a big TE who can help out with blocking and provide a 3rd or 4th receiving option when the WRs are covered.  And I feel that Uzomah is fully qualified to do that.  He is a very impressive combination of aize (6'4", 264) and speed (4.64 forty was second fastest TE at the '15 combine).  He is not "nimble"; he can't run real tight routes like elite TEs.  But he has good hands and is plenty a goo enough receiving threat to run down the seam or just catch a check down route when everyone else is covered.

But here is the big point that a lot of people miss.  We currently have three top level WRs.  Any team that has a TE in the top ten in receiving yards generally has a weak #2 WR and an invisible #3.  Here are the top 10 TEs from last year by receiving yards and the number of receptions by the #2 and #3 WRs on their team

...................yds....team...#2 WR....#3 WR
Kelce...........1416.....KC.......45.........41
Waller..........1196....LV........56.........26
Hockenson.... 723....Det.......46.........20
Gesiki........... 703....Mia.......36.........28
Andrews....... 701....Bal........33.........19
Fant............. 673....Den.......51.........30
Thomas........ 670....Was......32.........27
Engram........ 645.....NYG.....50.........35
Kittle............ 634.....SF........49.........33
Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

So if you start dreaming about a TE being a big part of our passing game realize that he will be taking targets away from our top 3 WRs.  And if you want a TE good enough to match the production of Chase, Boyd, or Higgins You are probably going to need a high first round draft pick or a ton of free agent money.  And even then I don't think he would make the offense any better or more productive.  It would just be a zero net sum gain taking catches away from the WRs and giving them to the TE.

When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all TE's are not as good of receivers as WRs.  Last year there were only 5 TEs with more than 700 receiving yards, but 48 wide receivers passed that mark.  Only 1 TE in the league had 30 receptions and and averaged over 14.0 per catch.  26 WRs did it.  So if you just want receiving production it is better to throw to a WR than a TE.

Teams still need a big TE who can help out with blocking and provide a 3rd or 4th receiving option when the WRs are covered.  And I feel that Uzomah is fully qualified to do that.  He is a very impressive combination of aize (6'4", 264) and speed (4.64 forty was second fastest TE at the '15 combine).  He is not "nimble"; he can't run real tight routes like elite TEs.  But he has good hands and is plenty a goo enough receiving threat to run down the seam or just catch a check down route when everyone else is covered.

But here is the big point that a lot of people miss.  We currently have three top level WRs.  Any team that has a TE in the top ten in receiving yards generally has a weak #2 WR and an invisible #3.  Here are the top 10 TEs from last year by receiving yards and the number of receptions by the #2 and #3 WRs on their team

...................yds....team...#2 WR....#3 WR
Kelce...........1416.....KC.......45.........41
Waller..........1196....LV........56.........26
Hockenson.... 723....Det.......46.........20
Gesiki........... 703....Mia.......36.........28
Andrews....... 701....Bal........33.........19
Fant............. 673....Den.......51.........30
Thomas........ 670....Was......32.........27
Engram........ 645.....NYG.....50.........35
Kittle............ 634.....SF.........49........33
Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

So if you start dreaming about a TE being a big part of our passing game realize that he will be taking targets away from our top 3 WRs.  And if you want a TE good enough to match the production of Chase, Boyd, or Higgins You are probably going to need a high first round draft pick or a ton of free agent money.  And even then I don't think he would make the offense any better or more productive.  It would just be a zero net sum gain taking catches away from the WRs and giving them to the TE.

When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

I don't think you're seeing the beauty of a TE.  TEs block downfield.  TE can be 'lost' by the defense.  TE is the ultimate hybrid that can completely change the face of a game by supporting what is working -- running the ball or pass catching.  It comes down to mismatches.  A big TE that can run can block a smaller CB in the run game, or out-muscle a covering LB for a 1st down catch.      

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

That example alone imho kind of contradicts the premise. TB has three top WRs and still the TEs do a lot of damage.

If one faces an opponent wth an excellent secondary, but dubious linebackers - or is just committed to stop the passing attack with a bunch of nickel and dime formations that commit extra attention to the WRs - imho it sure would be nice to have a TE that can take full advantage of that. Even if said TE does not catch all that much in a more conventional game and/or reverts back to being the third or fourth option then.

We shouldnt be asking ourselves "Do what need a TE?" but rather "What would Mike Gesicki cost?".

The Dolphins have Durham Smythe and Mike Geisicki both needing a contract this offseason. Smythe is their primary TE-Y and best run blocker on the team and in week 1 he out snapped Geisicki by alot. In fact their rookie TE Hunter Long got the same amount of snaps as Geisicki (18) with Cethan Carter actually getting 13 snaps as well. Geisicki wouldnt get top TE money but just below it and he would fit extremely well because not only is he an excellent receiver but he's also and underrated blocker.

I know someone will complain but also Drew Sample fits very well in this wide zone offense no he's never going to be Kelce or Waller but he's very important on the edges as a blocker. He can also catches the short passes gets behind his pads and falls forward for extra yardage.

(09-16-2021, 12:49 AM)EatonFan Wrote: I don't think you're seeing the beauty of a TE.  TEs block downfield.  TE can be 'lost' by the defense.  TE is the ultimate hybrid that can completely change the face of a game by supporting what is working -- running the ball or pass catching.  It comes down to mismatches.  A big TE that can run can block a smaller CB in the run game, or out-muscle a covering LB for a 1st down catch.      

If TEs were really unstoppable "mismatches" for every defense then there would have been more than 3 that averaged at least 50 receiving yards a game last year.

It is not easy to find a All-Pro/Hall of Fame level TE like Gronk/Kelce/Kittle.  And if you don't have one of those you don't have a receiving weapon as good as a WR.  We already have Uzomah.  If he was targeted more often then he would have receiving numbers equal to pretty much any TE other than the very elite.  He doen't have low numbers because he can't get open.  He has low numbers because he is usually the #4 option behind 3 VERY GOOD wide receivers.  I just don't believe Bengal coaches are upset because they can't take more targets away from Higgins/Boyd/Chase in order to throw to a TE.

(09-16-2021, 05:09 AM)hollodero Wrote: That example alone imho kind of contradicts the premise. TB has three top WRs and still the TEs do a lot of damage.

Gronk is the greatest receiving TE in the history of the NFL.  If we can get a TE like him then I am all for it.  But what we mostly hear around here are calls for mid-level TEs that would not really be any more productive than Uzomah in our system.

(09-16-2021, 05:21 AM)Synric Wrote: We shouldnt be asking ourselves "Do what need a TE?" but rather "What would Mike Gesicki cost?".

Gesicki is basically a big WR.  Only 17 of his 89 targets (about 1 per game) came when he was lined up tight.  Only 1 TE in the league (Cook, NO) had a lower percentage of his targets come from the TE position instead of slot/wide alignment.

And the reason for this is that Miami's #2 and #3 WRs COMBINED for only 649 receiving yards.

We don't need another WR.  

It's hard to say Bengals don't need a TE, when the pass that got them in winning FG range was to a TE in Uzomah.

It's hard to say Bengals don't need a TE, when some of the best run plays came with 1 or even 2 TE's in the game,

In the 1980's or 1990's the Detroit Lions came up with The Mouse Davis Offense. They carried no TE's on the team in the run and shoot offense. Other teams went to it. It became a Fad. Except these teams were getting their quarterbacks injured, some down to their 3rd string QB's. Bob Trumpy the great Bengals TE turned announcer said that it's good to have TE's on the team also, because they are good on special teams. By the time The Patriots were winning Super Bowls with 2 TE Formations, all teams were back to carrying TE's. The Fad of no TE's was over, and it had injured too many QBs in it's wake. The Run and Shoot only gets QB's injured, and no Run and no Run and Shoot team ever won a Super Bowl.

Yes, it's good to have Boyd, Higgins, Chase and others, but it is also good to have the TE's. Now I didn't like Sample blowing his block and Burrow coming up limping after that sack. I did like Uzomah big play yards catch to get the winning points. I liked when they went to TE's for extra run blocking and Mixon gained over 100 yards. When a Bengal RB gains over 100 yards, they win most of the time, you can look that one up in their history. Also you have to factor in injuries. Odds are Boyd, Higgins and Chase will not all 3 go without injury in 2021, and at times Bengals will play without all 3 suited up.

Trumpy's point that Big, Tall, Fast TE's are great on Kick-Offs and Punts is a valid point. I will add that in The Red Zone, TE's make big targets for TD's. I'm also not as big on WR's under 6 feet tall. Paul Brown would have Trumpy, Coslett and all these guys the size of basketball players for QBs to throw to. Nice Big Targets. I agree with Bob Trumpy that the Run and Shoot of no TE's on a team was a bad concept, and that TE's are a key and valuable part of teams. The teams that tried to not carry TE's, never won a Super Bowl. TEs have always been a part of a winning Super Bowl team.

After Uzomah made the big play to get Bengals in winning FG range, it's impossible for me to even consider no TE's. Just the opposite, I want to see Uzomah get the ball more, because he is a good TE when not injured. Injuries have held him back in past, but if he is healthy and playing, get him the ball.

Also with Burrow still fragile after last year injury, the first game shows one big sack can have him limping. The Running Backs and Tight Ends missed some Blocks last Sunday. Bengals and Burrow need 100 % better BLOCKING out of the Running Backs and Tight Ends. So not only is this NOT the time to stop carrying TE's, Bengals need their RB's and TE's to BLOCK, and if they can not Block, Bengals need to fire some players and bring in RB's and TE's that can BLOCK for Burrow. There are plays the RB and TE must see the blitz and do their job on Blocking for Burrow.

TEs are valuable because of their production compared to contract value, not necessarily their raw counting stats. TEs from a strategical standpoint can provide advantageous mismatches and red zone targets (three members of the top 10 in TDs were TEs, for instance) but you can snag a TE that will be cheaper contract wise than a receiver who can provide similar output, especially when factoring in blocking.

You really cannot discount the blocking TEs provide even if they're not a great receiver. Anyone remember Dan Coats? Heck of a blocker and I argued and continue to argue he would have caught a lot more if he hadn't been playing with his thumb about to fall off. He played the entire season with a broken thumb, but helped keep Palmer off the ground more times than not.

TEs are the ultimate chess piece on offense.
The best offenses in the NFL use their TEs in their passing
Schemes.
NE and Tampa dont win SBs without Gronk at TE
Heck the Bengals SB teams used the TE as crucial
Weapons.
The Bengals one legit TE that can catch downfield and
Get YAC. They need 2.

TE's are easily lost by the defense. The TE does nothing but block for 15 plays and the D forgets about that option.

Boom 15 yard pass to a wide open TE.

(09-16-2021, 10:03 AM)impactplaya Wrote: TEs are the ultimate chess piece on offense.
The best offenses in the NFL use their TEs in their passing
Schemes.
NE and Tampa dont win SBs without Gronk at TE
Heck the Bengals SB teams used the TE as crucial
Weapons.
The Bengals one legit TE that can catch downfield and
Get YAC. They need 2.

Do you think the bengals should use a first round pick on a tight end?

I respectably disagree. Imagine if this team had a middle of the road pass catching TE that could stretch the field. We need an athletic TE that has WR skills. I wish Eifert wasn't made of glass.

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all TE's are not as good of receivers as WRs.  Last year there were only 5 TEs with more than 700 receiving yards, but 48 wide receivers passed that mark.  Only 1 TE in the league had 30 receptions and and averaged over 14.0 per catch.  26 WRs did it.  So if you just want receiving production it is better to throw to a WR than a TE.

Teams still need a big TE who can help out with blocking and provide a 3rd or 4th receiving option when the WRs are covered.  And I feel that Uzomah is fully qualified to do that.  He is a very impressive combination of aize (6'4", 264) and speed (4.64 forty was second fastest TE at the '15 combine).  He is not "nimble"; he can't run real tight routes like elite TEs.  But he has good hands and is plenty a goo enough receiving threat to run down the seam or just catch a check down route when everyone else is covered.

But here is the big point that a lot of people miss.  We currently have three top level WRs.  Any team that has a TE in the top ten in receiving yards generally has a weak #2 WR and an invisible #3.  Here are the top 10 TEs from last year by receiving yards and the number of receptions by the #2 and #3 WRs on their team

...................yds....team...#2 WR....#3 WR
Kelce...........1416.....KC.......45.........41
Waller..........1196....LV........56.........26
Hockenson.... 723....Det.......46.........20
Gesiki........... 703....Mia.......36.........28
Andrews....... 701....Bal........33.........19
Fant............. 673....Den.......51.........30
Thomas........ 670....Was......32.........27
Engram........ 645.....NYG.....50.........35
Kittle............ 634.....SF........49.........33
Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

So if you start dreaming about a TE being a big part of our passing game realize that he will be taking targets away from our top 3 WRs.  And if you want a TE good enough to match the production of Chase, Boyd, or Higgins You are probably going to need a high first round draft pick or a ton of free agent money.  And even then I don't think he would make the offense any better or more productive.  It would just be a zero net sum gain taking catches away from the WRs and giving them to the TE.

When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

Perfectly said, UZ is good enuff! People on this board swear we need 4 Pro Bowl CB's, 3 Pro Bowl TE's, 3 Pro Bowl LB's - UZ is proficient enuff and Burrow and him work pretty good together.. 

(09-16-2021, 05:09 AM)hollodero Wrote: That example alone imho kind of contradicts the premise. TB has three top WRs and still the TEs do a lot of damage.

If one faces an opponent wth an excellent secondary, but dubious linebackers - or is just committed to stop the passing attack with a bunch of nickel and dime formations that commit extra attention to the WRs - imho it sure would be nice to have a TE that can take full advantage of that. Even if said TE does not catch all that much in a more conventional game and/or reverts back to being the third or fourth option then.

I'm not for or against Fred's argument itself (I do feel we don't need TE help, currently), but looking at just the numbers, Gronkwoski is the ONLY exception in that data list, where everyone else falls in-line with the data presented.

And he's the only HOFer on that list (yeah, yeah, Kelce will be there too, we know, but he's not up to Gronkowski's level yet), so if 9/10 fit the argument and there's one outlier (who happens to be in the running for greatest TE ever), it absolutely does not hurt Fred's argument in the slightest.

No more 1st round pass catchers until it’s extremely evident we need one

(09-16-2021, 09:36 AM)kevin Wrote: It's hard to say Bengals don't need a TE, when the pass that got them in winning FG range was to a TE in Uzomah.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant we don't need a "different" TE.  We do need a TE. But we already have one.

(09-16-2021, 10:31 AM)740Bengal Wrote: I respectably disagree.  Imagine if this team had a middle of the road pass catching TE that could stretch the field.  We need an athletic TE that has WR skills. I wish Eifert wasn't made of glass.

Uzomah is probably one of the faster TEs in the league. He was the second fastest WR at the '15 combine.

We don't need a TE with WR skills because we already have 3 very good WRs. What we neef is a TE that has a decent balance of receiving and blocking skills.

(09-16-2021, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What we neef is a TE that has a decent balance of receiving and blocking skills.

Bengals could grab OJ Howard for cheap in the offseason.

He looked very promising until Arians took over