One great receiver and one great TE go a long way. Look at KC and the year the Bengals had when Eifert was healthy and on.

(09-16-2021, 11:01 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Bengals could grab OJ Howard for cheap in the offseason.

He looked very promising until Arians took over

This is the last year of CJ's contract.  I have no problem with discussing potential replacements for 2022. 

I just don't think we need to seek another TE right now. And i don't think we should use a first round pick or huge free agent contract on one next year.

(09-16-2021, 11:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the last year of CJ's contract.  I have no problem with discussing potential replacements for 2022. 

I just don't think we need to seek another TE right now. And i don't think we should use a first round pick or huge free agent contract on one next year.

me either. I agree with you 100%

I'm just saying OJ Howard probably wouldnt be expensive, since he has been irrelevant for the last 3-4 years

(09-16-2021, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Uzomah is probably one of the faster TEs in the league. He was the second fastest WR at the '15 combine.

We don't need a TE with WR skills because we already have 3 very good WRs. What we neef is a TE that has a decent balance of receiving and blocking skills.

Sadly this is what Sample was supposed to be at least with blocking. 

(09-16-2021, 08:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Gronk is the greatest receiving TE in the history of the NFL.  If we can get a TE like him then I am all for it.  But what we mostly hear around here are calls for mid-level TEs that would not really be any more productive than Uzomah in our system.

(09-16-2021, 10:34 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: And he's the only HOFer on that list (yeah, yeah, Kelce will be there too, we know, but he's not up to Gronkowski's level yet), so if 9/10 fit the argument and there's one outlier (who happens to be in the running for greatest TE ever), it absolutely does not hurt Fred's argument in the slightest.

Well, I would argue that Gronk is no longer the greatest TE currently playing, that there are in fact several guys before him now. At the same time, I feel nowaday Gronk would still be an upgrade for the Bengals, one not just taking away receptions from our WRs netting a zero sum improvement, but actually resulting in better game outcomes.

What I of course totally agree on is that we do not need a TE that is just as good as Uzomah (there's actually no additional argument that needs to be made about that, it's evident enough), and I can also see how there might be bigger priorities. But I wouldn't go as far as to say no other TE would really do us better in any case.

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all TE's are not as good of receivers as WRs.  Last year there were only 5 TEs with more than 700 receiving yards, but 48 wide receivers passed that mark.  Only 1 TE in the league had 30 receptions and and averaged over 14.0 per catch.  26 WRs did it.  So if you just want receiving production it is better to throw to a WR than a TE.

Teams still need a big TE who can help out with blocking and provide a 3rd or 4th receiving option when the WRs are covered.  And I feel that Uzomah is fully qualified to do that.  He is a very impressive combination of aize (6'4", 264) and speed (4.64 forty was second fastest TE at the '15 combine).  He is not "nimble"; he can't run real tight routes like elite TEs.  But he has good hands and is plenty a goo enough receiving threat to run down the seam or just catch a check down route when everyone else is covered.

But here is the big point that a lot of people miss.  We currently have three top level WRs.  Any team that has a TE in the top ten in receiving yards generally has a weak #2 WR and an invisible #3.  Here are the top 10 TEs from last year by receiving yards and the number of receptions by the #2 and #3 WRs on their team

...................yds....team...#2 WR....#3 WR
Kelce...........1416.....KC.......45.........41
Waller..........1196....LV........56.........26
Hockenson.... 723....Det.......46.........20
Gesiki........... 703....Mia.......36.........28
Andrews....... 701....Bal........33.........19
Fant............. 673....Den.......51.........30
Thomas........ 670....Was......32.........27
Engram........ 645.....NYG.....50.........35
Kittle............ 634.....SF........49.........33
Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

So if you start dreaming about a TE being a big part of our passing game realize that he will be taking targets away from our top 3 WRs.  And if you want a TE good enough to match the production of Chase, Boyd, or Higgins You are probably going to need a high first round draft pick or a ton of free agent money.  And even then I don't think he would make the offense any better or more productive.  It would just be a zero net sum gain taking catches away from the WRs and giving them to the TE.

When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

Disagree, I like Uzomah and we need him lol

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

After a few drinks, you'll be scouring the ends of the earth for a tight end!

(09-16-2021, 05:21 AM)Synric Wrote: I know someone will complain but also Drew Sample fits very well in this wide zone offense no he's never going to be Kelce or Waller but he's very important on the edges as a blocker. He can also catches the short passes gets behind his pads and falls forward for extra yardage.

The Curious Case of Drew Sample


I would normally be one to complain. It's no secret i didn't like the pick in rd 2 at all when he was drafted. I also have never thought he'd amount to much as a receiver. But let's look at what he's good at and how good he is...

Last year he had the 3rd most OPP (number of snaps where it was possible to give up a pressure) with 92, behind Chris Herndon and Luke Stocker who had 101 and 96 respectively. He bettered them by only giving up 3 pressures. They gave up 4 and 9 respectively. That gave Sample a passblock EFF of 97.8, better than both of them. 

Most notably, when you look at his grades, no one comes close to him with regard to consistency with pass block and run block. He's the only TE with both grades being 72+. Mo Allie-Cox and Jack Doyle are in his neighborhood but they only have 18 and 14 OPPs. Will Dissly is closest to him but his run block grade is 6 points lower. 

I'm never going to be one to sing his praises because i think he's more deficient as a receiver in this offense than another TE would be as a blocker. But give the man props. He's pretty good at what he's good at. 

(09-16-2021, 05:42 PM)GodFather Wrote: After a few drinks, you'll be scouring the ends of the earth for a tight end!

I take whatever the defense gives me.  I prefer a wide receiver over trying to force the ball into a tight end that isn't open.

(09-16-2021, 07:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The Curious Case of Drew Sample


I would normally be one to complain. It's no secret i didn't like the pick in rd 2 at all when he was drafted. I also have never thought he'd amount to much as a receiver. But let's look at what he's good at and how good he is...

Last year he had the 3rd most OPP (number of snaps where it was possible to give up a pressure) with 92, behind Chris Herndon and Luke Stocker who had 101 and 96 respectively. He bettered them by only giving up 3 pressures. They gave up 4 and 9 respectively. That gave Sample a passblock EFF of 97.8, better than both of them. 

Most notably, when you look at his grades, no one comes close to him with regard to consistency with pass block and run block. He's the only TE with both grades being 72+. Mo Allie-Cox and Jack Doyle are in his neighborhood but they only have 18 and 14 OPPs. Will Dissly is closest to him but his run block grade is 6 points lower. 

I'm never going to be one to sing his praises because i think he's more deficient as a receiver in this offense than another TE would be as a blocker. But give the man props. He's pretty good at what he's good at. 

Great post.  This is exactly how I feel about Sample.  He might not have been worth a second round pick, but he could still be an important part of our offense.  

Ryan Hewitt never put up significant rushing/receiving numbers but he played about 25 snaps a game for that great 2015 offense.  His blocking was a key part of its success.

(09-16-2021, 11:05 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: One great receiver and one great TE go a long way. Look at KC and the year the Bengals had when Eifert was healthy and on.

Would Love to see a great TE added to this Offense, but that Bengals team that selected Eifert didn't have as many holes as we do atm.

He was a luxury pick. This team isn't ready for that Luxury pick. Maybe another off-season/draft and we can think about it, but for now, we got who we have and they fit what we need.  RT is No 1 concern for next year.

(09-16-2021, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all TE's are not as good of receivers as WRs.  Last year there were only 5 TEs with more than 700 receiving yards, but 48 wide receivers passed that mark.  Only 1 TE in the league had 30 receptions and and averaged over 14.0 per catch.  26 WRs did it.  So if you just want receiving production it is better to throw to a WR than a TE.

Teams still need a big TE who can help out with blocking and provide a 3rd or 4th receiving option when the WRs are covered.  And I feel that Uzomah is fully qualified to do that.  He is a very impressive combination of aize (6'4", 264) and speed (4.64 forty was second fastest TE at the '15 combine).  He is not "nimble"; he can't run real tight routes like elite TEs.  But he has good hands and is plenty a goo enough receiving threat to run down the seam or just catch a check down route when everyone else is covered.

But here is the big point that a lot of people miss.  We currently have three top level WRs.  Any team that has a TE in the top ten in receiving yards generally has a weak #2 WR and an invisible #3.  Here are the top 10 TEs from last year by receiving yards and the number of receptions by the #2 and #3 WRs on their team

...................yds....team...#2 WR....#3 WR
Kelce...........1416.....KC.......45.........41
Waller..........1196....LV........56.........26
Hockenson.... 723....Det.......46.........20
Gesiki........... 703....Mia.......36.........28
Andrews....... 701....Bal........33.........19
Fant............. 673....Den.......51.........30
Thomas........ 670....Was......32.........27
Engram........ 645.....NYG.....50.........35
Kittle............ 634.....SF........49.........33
Gronkowski... 623....TB.........65........45

So if you start dreaming about a TE being a big part of our passing game realize that he will be taking targets away from our top 3 WRs.  And if you want a TE good enough to match the production of Chase, Boyd, or Higgins You are probably going to need a high first round draft pick or a ton of free agent money.  And even then I don't think he would make the offense any better or more productive.  It would just be a zero net sum gain taking catches away from the WRs and giving them to the TE.

When I look at the positions where we need to get better I just don't see the justification of using large resources for a TE.

Mismatch is the game in most sports like the NFL. A very good blocking TE and down field threat is going to create plenty of mismatches in a game. Maybe he pass blocks a blitzing DB or wipes out a linebacker for Joe Mixon.
Maybe he lines up and is covered by a smaller and slower backer and our TE gets the mismatch. Maybe a safety gets the coverage and downfield is open. With our receivers someone gets open and big plays open up.

(09-16-2021, 08:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Would Love to see a great TE added to this Offense, but that Bengals team that selected Eifert didn't have as many holes as we do atm.

He was a luxury pick. This team isn't ready for that Luxury pick. Maybe another off-season/draft and we can think about it, but for now, we got who we have and they fit what we need.  RT is No 1 concern for next year.

Agree. That had nothing to do with my post 

(09-16-2021, 12:49 AM)EatonFan Wrote: I don't think you're seeing the beauty of a TE.  TEs block downfield.  TE can be 'lost' by the defense.  TE is the ultimate hybrid that can completely change the face of a game by supporting what is working -- running the ball or pass catching.  It comes down to mismatches.  A big TE that can run can block a smaller CB in the run game, or out-muscle a covering LB for a 1st down catch.      

"Need" is a funny word.  Does a team need a #1 like Higgins, a #2 like Chase, and a slot like Boyd?  No, a team doesn't really "need" that mix of personnel in order to win games.  That doesn't mean that those three aren't capable of winning games.  Getting open, catching balls, blocking well, ect. etc. is never bad.  If you add a Gronk in his prime or a Kittle or a Waller or etc. etc. to this offense, is it really accurate to say that they wouldn't be better?  Yeah, Uzomah is a pretty good athlete in a straight line.  Sample is a pretty good blocker and outlet receiver.  Does anyone really believe that playoff caliber teams wouldn't be able to scheme against them better than they could against an elite TE?  Does anyone really believe that having an elite TE to pick up the slack in cold weather and/or when receivers may be injured wouldn't be more effective than just eating into other players' yardage?  

I mean, I guess you could look back at a lot of really good teams and claim that they don't "need" this player or that, but TEs probably play an underrated position to this day.  The best of the best move the needle for their respective teams more than the best of the best receivers do. Also: without Uzomah or Sample this offense gets a lot worse overnight.

(09-17-2021, 06:04 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: "Need" is a funny word.  Does a team need a #1 like Higgins, a #2 like Chase, and a slot like Boyd?  No, a team doesn't really "need" that mix of personnel in order to win games.  That doesn't mean that those three aren't capable of winning games.  Getting open, catching balls, blocking well, ect. etc. is never bad.  If you add a Gronk in his prime or a Kittle or a Waller or etc. etc. to this offense, is it really accurate to say that they wouldn't be better?  Yeah, Uzomah is a pretty good athlete in a straight line.  Sample is a pretty good blocker and outlet receiver.  Does anyone really believe that playoff caliber teams wouldn't be able to scheme against them better than they could against an elite TE?  Does anyone really believe that having an elite TE to pick up the slack in cold weather and/or when receivers may be injured wouldn't be more effective than just eating into other players' yardage?  

I mean, I guess you could look back at a lot of really good teams and claim that they don't "need" this player or that, but TEs probably play an underrated position to this day.  The best of the best move the needle for their respective teams more than the best of the best receivers do.  Also: without Uzomah or Sample this offense gets a lot worse overnight.

Not even the best team in the league has a star at every position.  The reason is that no team can afford to use a top draft pick or big free-agent contract at every position.  So it is all about "return on investment".  Tampa Bay would have a better defense if they paid Aaron Donald $20 million to play DT for them.  But their defensive front is already so good that the improvement would not be that great and not worth the price.

That is my point about the Bengals needing an upgrade at TE.  Uzomah is not a bad TE at all, and we already have three other top receivers.  The cost of brining in an elite receiver to play TE might improve our passing game some, but it would not be enough to be worth the investment of a first round pick or huge free-agent contract.  Especially considering that we still have other isues with our roster that need to be addressed. 

This is one area where the stats don't really tell the whole story.

The TE isn't solely about numbers, it's about opening up the field. Remember when we had Eifert? It was amazing seeing how teams had to at least dedicate a safety to the middle of the field. They couldn't just sag back and help on the outside guys. It's also a major weapon on 3rd downs over the middle of the field.

I don't think a great TE would take that many targets away from our top WRs, but he definitely would open up the coverage for them.

(09-17-2021, 12:01 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: This is one area where the stats don't really tell the whole story.

The TE isn't solely about numbers, it's about opening up the field.  Remember when we had Eifert?  It was amazing seeing how teams had to at least dedicate a safety to the middle of the field.  They couldn't just sag back and help on the outside guys.  It's also a major weapon on 3rd downs over the middle of the field.

I don't think a great TE would take that many targets away from our top WRs, but he definitely would open up the coverage for them.

1.  It took a first round pick to get a player like Eifert.  I don't think with our current roster we can afford to use a first round pick on a TE.

2.  In Eifert's best season (2015) Mo Sanu only had 33 receptions for 394 yards.  I would not want to see Chase, Boyd, or Higgins limited to that type of production just to get more targets for a TE.

(09-16-2021, 07:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The Curious Case of Drew Sample


I would normally be one to complain. It's no secret i didn't like the pick in rd 2 at all when he was drafted. I also have never thought he'd amount to much as a receiver. But let's look at what he's good at and how good he is...

Last year he had the 3rd most OPP (number of snaps where it was possible to give up a pressure) with 92, behind Chris Herndon and Luke Stocker who had 101 and 96 respectively. He bettered them by only giving up 3 pressures. They gave up 4 and 9 respectively. That gave Sample a passblock EFF of 97.8, better than both of them. 

Most notably, when you look at his grades, no one comes close to him with regard to consistency with pass block and run block. He's the only TE with both grades being 72+. Mo Allie-Cox and Jack Doyle are in his neighborhood but they only have 18 and 14 OPPs. Will Dissly is closest to him but his run block grade is 6 points lower. 

I'm never going to be one to sing his praises because i think he's more deficient as a receiver in this offense than another TE would be as a blocker. But give the man props. He's pretty good at what he's good at. 

This. Contrary to Wes's opinion of Drew he is a damn good blocker, maybe the best blocking TE in the league when not facing
Defensive Ends like he had to with Hunter last Sunday. Drew had a great block that sprung Mixon for a big gain last Sunday.

Saw at least one great block by him that was huge in this game for Mixon. He just isn't a pass catching threat. He checkdown.

(09-17-2021, 12:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  It took a first round pick to get a player like Eifert.  I don't think with our current roster we can afford to use a first round pick on a TE.

2.  In Eifert's best season (2015) Mo Sanu only had 33 receptions for 394 yards.  I would not want to see Chase, Boyd, or Higgins limited to that type of production just to get more targets for a TE.

1.  We were drafting 21 overall if I remember correctly.  Eifert was considered a top 10 talent, we definitely have the roster to make a move like that.  Looking at the first game (if everyone performs similar and stays healthy, there aren't a ton of huge needs on this team.)

2.  This offense is much different than the one we used to run with Andy.  Targets won't be an issue.